ATF eForm 1 mega thread. Process and approvals!

drgrant

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I just personally find arm braces shit and the $200 is worth the price to upgrade to a legitimate stock as well as make people OOH and AHH at the range for something as stupid as an alphabet stamp. A lot of people don't even know you can make SBRs in Mass and it's fun to see their initial reactions thinking im some sort of criminal.

Well if you're a MA self-suffering citizen type, the SBR route bypasses the pistol AWB bullshit, depending on which side of the road you pick. An AR pistol in MA is worthless
legally unless you're going for a featureless, neutered build, or don't give a shit about the law.
 

drgrant

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so you admit it NOT a stock [smile] [wink]
you be you, I'll be me.

I never said they were stocks. But for a compact build in some low recoiling caliber? To blow 200 bucks on a stamp, in a free state? Poor value prop, at best.
 

SIGaddict

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I'll still be pinning my comp on my 11.5" 5.56 barrel since we can't get cans here and I don't enjoy adding/removing/timing and fugging with muzzle devices. Also easily undone in the event I move. I might throw a folding stock on there with a featureless grip since it would then only have a detachable mag, and folder.
 

JRT

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Except that the "silly wrist braces" you can buy, nowadays, are 95% of what a stock is.

I buy an SBR here and there but most often buy the pistol version and then do the eForm 1 route. I won’t argue the percentage with you but you do lose some functionality with a brace. I’m 6’4” and most braces don’t have the length of pull I want and can’t be extended. Most stocks can be extended with pads and many for some reason have a longer LOP. If you like a cheek device for comfort or a quick guide to get on the scope you can’t add that to a brace. I have an AR pistol but I SBR most of my stuff. I don’t mind the 5320.20, I do those for a year at a time on my birthday for every state I go to and hunt in. I do hate having to engrave a Form 1, it’s retarded and ugly. I usually do the mag well but it still rubs me wrong every time.
 

drgrant

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I buy an SBR here and there but most often buy the pistol version and then do the eForm 1 route. I won’t argue the percentage with you but you do lose some functionality with a brace. I’m 6’4” and most braces don’t have the length of pull I want and can’t be extended. Most stocks can be extended with pads and many for some reason have a longer LOP. If you like a cheek device for comfort or a quick guide to get on the scope you can’t add that to a brace. I have an AR pistol but I SBR most of my stuff. I don’t mind the 5320.20, I do those for a year at a time on my birthday for every state I go to and hunt in. I do hate having to engrave a Form 1, it’s retarded and ugly. I usually do the mag well but it still rubs me wrong every time.

Yeah if you are a big guy, the LOP on most of the braces sucks, I will concede that. Not nearly long enough. And they can't add the accouterments you talk about, either. I can see why, if you own a bunch of short guns, that eventually you might be better off SBRing them. I would want them in a trust or corp, for flexibility.
 
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JRT

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I'll still be pinning my comp on my 11.5" 5.56 barrel since we can't get cans here and I don't enjoy adding/removing/timing and fugging with muzzle devices. Also easily undone in the event I move. I might throw a folding stock on there with a featureless grip since it would then only have a detachable mag, and folder.

I don’t understand why you would pin and weld the muzzle device? I read you hate to mess with them but once you have it installed your done. I’ve never had one come loose. It just seems like an extra step that’s not needed.
 

drgrant

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I don’t understand why you would pin and weld the muzzle device? I read you hate to mess with them but once you have it installed your done. I’ve never had one come loose. It just seems like an extra step that’s not needed.
Probably because out of the two MA belief systems he's chosen the more risk averse/chicken option. (Depends on your pov on the lawrs). There's a prevailing belief that SBR = exempt under MA AWB. There's another faction that doesn't believe that.
 

SIGaddict

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Call me a chicken, that's fine. Not trying to have my life turned upside down and put a second mortgage on my home in the event I have to defend myself. Local PD will comb through every firearm and magazine I have and I'd rather not be like "yeah well uh it's an AOW that's not Preban with all the scary features" there's already a case where someone was convicted of AWB charges with an SBR.
 

drgrant

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there's already a case where someone was convicted of AWB charges with an SBR.

Lol, please enlighten us with details.

TTBOMK, the only time anything close to this happened in MA in the recent past is when some douche LEO tried to prosecute a guy for having an illegal AW for having an
AR pistol in MA, but it had a pinned mag. JCArms paid for the guys defense in court and he won. That clearly was not an SBR, though.
 

SIGaddict

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I will try to find the exact circumstance, but It's mentioned in a couple SBR threads on NES.


Regardless, I take Crackpots advice seeing as I do a lot of business with him:
"A SBR must comply with the federal AWB for rifles.

People have tried the "well, in MA an SBR is a pistol, so it can't require the federal rifle AWB to apply, ah, stutter, ah..." The idea is that federal and state definitions of rifle, pistol, etc are not aligned so an SBR falls through some loophole. If you apply the federal pistol definition you essentially can never build an SBR, so that makes no sense.

This is actually very simple.

MGL 140 131M prohibits possession of a post 9/13/94 assault weapon.
MGL 140 121 defines assault weapon as "shall have the same meaning as a semiautomatic assault weapon as defined in the federal Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(30) as appearing in such section on September 13, 1994" It has more language, but the key is it is a reference to federal law. It does not include federal law setting up the confusion on definition, but says SEE federal law.

Federal law of 1994 is simple. A SBR is a rifle and subject to the rifle limitations.

Therefore an SBR is MA is subject to the federal limitations of a rifle."
 

edmorseiii

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I will try to find the exact circumstance, but It's mentioned in a couple SBR threads on NES.


Regardless, I take Crackpots advice seeing as I do a lot of business with him:
"A SBR must comply with the federal AWB for rifles.

People have tried the "well, in MA an SBR is a pistol, so it can't require the federal rifle AWB to apply, ah, stutter, ah..." The idea is that federal and state definitions of rifle, pistol, etc are not aligned so an SBR falls through some loophole. If you apply the federal pistol definition you essentially can never build an SBR, so that makes no sense.

This is actually very simple.

MGL 140 131M prohibits possession of a post 9/13/94 assault weapon.
MGL 140 121 defines assault weapon as "shall have the same meaning as a semiautomatic assault weapon as defined in the federal Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(30) as appearing in such section on September 13, 1994" It has more language, but the key is it is a reference to federal law. It does not include federal law setting up the confusion on definition, but says SEE federal law.

Federal law of 1994 is simple. A SBR is a rifle and subject to the rifle limitations.

Therefore an SBR is MA is subject to the federal limitations of a rifle."

What is the MA legal definition of a rifle?
 

drgrant

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This is actually very simple.

No, it's not. Go back and read the post in EasyD's thread on why its not so clean...



The AWB does not effect SBRs in MA argument: The problem with Massachusetts law is that it's poorly written. The MA AWB states, in part "“Assault weapon”, shall have the same meaning as a semiautomatic assault weapon as defined in the federal Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(30) as appearing in such section on September 13, 1994". If you go read all of 18 USC 921(a)(30), it does define assault weapons, but does not define the term "rifle". Why does that matter? Because the MA law specifically references ONLY that part of the federal law, and not the federal definition of a "rifle". Therefore, we must use the Massachusetts definition of a rifle, from 140 MGL 121. The definition in Massachusetts law states that a rifle must have a barrel equal to or greater than 16 inches in length. Because your SBR, by definition, has a barrel less then 16 inches, it can't be a rifle under Massachusetts law, and can't be an assault weapon using the specific section of the Federal ban referred to by Massachusetts law.

“Rifle”, a weapon having a rifled bore with a barrel length equal to or greater than 16 inches and capable of discharging a shot or bullet for each pull of the trigger.

ETA: Further, you've asserted that there is a test case. If this actually exists, we'd all love to see it.

It's likely right next to all those speeding tickets we were supposed to get when we put EzPass transponders on our cars, though.

ETA2: Not judging anyone for taking the more risk averse option, I get it, you're afraid of the machine, just like 95% of gun owners are in MA.
 
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JRT

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Call me a chicken, that's fine. Not trying to have my life turned upside down and put a second mortgage on my home in the event I have to defend myself. Local PD will comb through every firearm and magazine I have and I'd rather not be like "yeah well uh it's an AOW that's not Preban with all the scary features" there's already a case where someone was convicted of AWB charges with an SBR.

It truthfully never dawned on me this could be some MA law. I thought MA just adopted the 1994 federal ban as their own. That had some stuff about threaded barrels but I don’t recall it required pin and weld. How did somebody in a position of authority decide pinning and welding made for a safer flash hider!?! I guess they thought it would fly off and put an eye out.
 

drgrant

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It truthfully never dawned on me this could be some MA law. I thought MA just adopted the 1994 federal ban as their own. That had some stuff about threaded barrels but I don’t recall it required pin and weld. How did somebody in a position of authority decide pinning and welding made for a safer flash hider!?! I guess they thought it would fly off and put an eye out.

They did it in a very ham fisted, half assed, incomplete way. This ends up being a benefit and a curse, for various reasons.

The threaded barrel thing was always an AWB issue under the feds- if you had a "threaded barrel with accessible threads" that counts as an
evil feature. So to knock the count down you would P&W a brake or muzzle cap on the gun.

The "pin and weld" thing isn't in MGL btw, that's just mindless obeisance based off existing fed standards. MA doesn't define anything, like "permanently attached' etc, so on. And it didn't explicitly invite all related federal determinations, just the one section referenced. And now that the feds don't test muzzle devices anymore, where is the definition in MGL for a flash hider? oh wait, there isn't one. [laugh]
 

SIGaddict

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Still trying to find legitimate reading on the case, and not just "there was a guy..." post.

IMO $100 total for pin&weld/reversal in my mind is worth the peace of mind. Anyone else is free to do whatever they want, it's a free country. (Just not a free state)
 

drgrant

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Still trying to find legitimate reading on the case, and not just "there was a guy..." post.

You first. You were the one that asserted someone got prosecuted for it.

I have never heard of anyone with a stamp getting arrested for an AWB violation on said gun. Not even once.
 

CrackPot

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Probably because out of the two MA belief systems he's chosen the more risk averse/chicken option. (Depends on your pov on the lawrs). There's a prevailing belief that SBR = exempt under MA AWB. There's another faction that doesn't believe that.
I would really like to understand why people believe an SBR is exempt from the AWB. I think the prevailing argument goes something like its a pistol in MA but a rifle federally so boom, it falls through the cracks.

The problem is
MGL 140 131M makes it a crime to possess an assault weapon
MGL 140 121 defines an assault weapon as "see federal law as of 13 sep 1994"

Because it is a pointer to federal law MA definitions of rifle, pistol, etc dont come into play. It is a straight up reference to federal law and you use all federal definitions, language when you interpret. You have to read federal law in the context of the federal law. There is no loop whole. SBR is subject to federal Rifle AWB requirements.

Had they included the language in the definition as opposed to referencing it, then I could see the logic of "boom, loophole"

I have never heard of anyone with a stamp getting arrested for an AWB violation on said gun. Not even once.

Not the hook I want to hang my hat on. IF someone gets arrested, then I don't see how they have a defense.

Yes, we can all play big boy games and decide SBRs are exempt, carry/possess magazines over 10 rds that are questionable/outright post 1994, etc because risk is low, proof is hard, etc.

I think the position that SBRs are exempt holds no water. Wrong place, wrong time, wrong PD or DA and you are fuhked.

I would like to see the argument they are exempt based on the law and not "no one has been prosecuted that we know of".
 

SIGaddict

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Just thinking of the most likely scenario for my life. Burglar breaks in, and I am forced to defend myself or I am outside the home and my concealed weapon is used to defend myself - Any use of any of your firearms, you're jammed up by LE and your SBR as well as your entire collection is going to be seized and examined and not in a "cool collection bro, here are your guns back have a nice day" kind of way. My preban magazines are all clearly dated, and the rest are 10rounders, all my pistols are on roster, safe to say since my rifle is NOT preban, I'm playing on the chicken-shit safe side of things!
 

drgrant

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I would really like to understand why people believe an SBR is exempt from the AWB. I think the prevailing argument goes something like its a pistol in MA but a rifle federally so boom, it falls through the cracks.

Read what EasyD wrote, if you don't get it you don't get it. People are going to believe what they want, just like the S128A/B disco. I can get 3 gun attorneys in a room and they
will all disagree on what those two piles of shit mean. [rofl]

Then we had that fun thing where the AG was all like "YOU CANT LET UNWASHED PEOPLE SHOOT MACHINE GUNS!" tries to prosecute police chief guy. Fails. But now everyone
still believes her drivel on that and it became gospel. [rofl]

This state is f***ed.

ETA: Actually in light of what happened with the fixed mag pistol thing, anything is possible- because basically they used Healey's edict to prove that was legal, and her edict isn't even really law.... or is it? [laugh]
 

edmorseiii

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Just thinking of the most likely scenario for my life. Burglar breaks in, and I am forced to defend myself or I am outside the home and my concealed weapon is used to defend myself - Any use of any of your firearms, you're jammed up by LE and your SBR as well as your entire collection is going to be seized and examined and not in a "cool collection bro, here are your guns back have a nice day" kind of way. My preban magazines are all clearly dated, and the rest are 10rounders, all my pistols are on roster, safe to say since my rifle is NOT preban, I'm playing on the chicken-shit safe side of things!

Then play safe and don't argue about it. Other's don't care and play big boy rules. There is no need to justify it, just do it your way and be happy.
 

ScottS

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Just thinking of the most likely scenario for my life. Burglar breaks in, and I am forced to defend myself or I am outside the home and my concealed weapon is used to defend myself - Any use of any of your firearms, you're jammed up by LE and your SBR as well as your entire collection is going to be seized and examined and not in a "cool collection bro, here are your guns back have a nice day" kind of way. My preban magazines are all clearly dated, and the rest are 10rounders, all my pistols are on roster, safe to say since my rifle is NOT preban, I'm playing on the chicken-shit safe side of things!
Really? Why? Is that a MA thing? Because I haven't heard of it happening anywhere, and there have been a number of well-publicized self-defense shootings lately. None of those mentioned "entire collection(s) being seized and examined." Is that another one of those "I'll assert it without an offer of proof and hope people get distracted and forget" things like "there's already a case where someone was convicted of AWB charges with an SBR?"
 

SIGaddict

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Anytime you use a gun for self-defense it is SOP to suspend your LTC during the investigation and the law then requires that they confiscate ALL the guns/ammo/mags in the residence. Before giving anything back they will look with a fine tooth comb to see if any AWs or post-ban (maybe) mags exist and most probably throw you under the bus if that is the case. They did it to a cop after a 209A was lifted, no reason they won't do that to the unwashed.
 

SIGaddict

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And I can't find the actual SBR full-featured offense in a manner that you would approve of I'm sure, but here is what I was referencing. K? I'm done using the search function now I got shit to do today.

If you want all the AWB features, it should be preban. Some say that since an SBR(or anything with less than 16” barrel) is a “firearm” in MA and not defined as a handgun or rifle, you’re okay, because the AWB only applies to pistols, rifles, and shotguns. However, a guy got busted for violating the AWB with a 12” full feature AR, was convicted and also lost his appeal. However, he was a criminal with no LTC and most likely a shitty attorney. Who knows if it would stick with a competent defense and a clean record. I’m not taking that chance though.
 

ScottS

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So, yes, it's a MA thing. Always a good idea to add stuff like that when you're not in the MA laws forum, since this is the "ATF eForm 1 mega thread. Process and approvals!" thread. (I was bummed when the new forum software removed the "Negative Rep" thing. Seems like just the right time for use.)

In fact, hopefully one of the Mods will move this entire line of "reasoning" into the appropriate forum...
 

CrackPot

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Read what EasyD wrote, if you don't get it you don't get it. People are going to believe what they want, just like the S128A/B disco. I can get 3 gun attorneys in a room and they
will all disagree on what those two piles of shit mean. [rofl]

EasyD's logical is flawed. He says since rifle is not defined in that section you must use MA definition of rifle. A SBR is not a rifle, poof. It does not work that way. If it pulled in federal law by saying the text of federal law appears HERE in our definition, then we would fall back on MA rifle definition. Instead it says AW is as defined in this section of federal law which means you have to take the full context and relevant definitions in federal law around the section in question.

If we accept EasyD's logic, then lets talk pistols and the AWB. No one reasonably thinks all pistols are exempt from the AWB because the referenced law does not define pistol. MA does not define pistol so we cannot fall back on the MA definition. This would mean that pistols are exempt from the AWB. Hmm. that does not hold water.

So how did we decide to apply the semiautomatic pistol section of federal law to "firearms" as defined by MA (usually pistols). Since a SBR is a "firearm" and identical to any pistol under MA law, would not the semiautomatic pistol definition of the federal AWB not apply to SBRs?

The logic of EasyD is not self consistent. There are 3 choices that are logically self consistent
  1. SBRs are exempt. Pistols ("firearms under MA law") are exempt
  2. "Firearms" (pistols) are subject to federal semiauto pistol definition so therefore so are SBRs
  3. SBRs are subject to rifle definition and "firearms" when they are pistols are subject to pistol definition
So if you go with (1) you have to go with all of (1). So build out your AR and AK pistols because clearly they are exempt by the same logic.

Then we had that fun thing where the AG was all like "YOU CANT LET UNWASHED PEOPLE SHOOT MACHINE GUNS!" tries to prosecute police chief guy. Fails. But now everyone
still believes her drivel on that and it became gospel. [rofl]

Unfortunately the way our shitty laws are written, this interpretation is likely "correct" even if not the original intent. Similar to the fact that an SBR is not a rifle but a "firearm" which fell out of the AG desire to shutdown sale of Shockwaves. They read the law and actually correctly parsed what it said. You can carry a loaded SBR under your direct control, or a shockwave. They are "firearms" just like all handguns.

On the topic of machine guns. I will go pull out the relevant references if needed but a) it is illegal to possess one w/o a license and b) there is no carve out for under the direct supervision of someone who is allowed to possess. General possession of a firearm, shotgun or rifle has a carve out for when you are under the supervision of a LTC/FID holder as appropriate. Machine guns no such luck. So the moment you take possession you have committed a felony with a life sentence.

It sucks, but that is how the law is constructed.

This state is f***ed.

ETA: Actually in light of what happened with the fixed mag pistol thing, anything is possible- because basically they used Healey's edict to prove that was legal, and her edict isn't even really law.... or is it? [laugh]

Yes, this state is fuhked and otherwise sucks. The laws were written by untrained monkeys. The fact that the definition of barrel length includes the cylinder in a revolver and that an SBR is the same as a handgun ("firearm") and that receivers/frames are unregulated and... The people who wrote these laws thought they were smart but were stupid.

The fixed mag pistol arrest shows they will arrest and attempt to prosecute on any pretense. Fortunately the judge was having none of it in that case, but I would not expect logic to always prevail.

The arguments made around SBRs being exempt might work in a free state w/o a gun bias but no chance here. I say might because I believe as written there is not a lot of wiggle room to support your/EasyD's position and even in a free state you would be screwed should this be the law of the land.
 
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