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ATF decides firing a Sig Pistol Brace From the Shoulder is creating an SBR

Well, even if it is the majority of MG owners who consider them investments, that is still not very many people. There are what, 300k machine guns?

I'm sure a lot depends on what kind of machine guns the investors own.

If the 86 Hughs act was repealed, people with more modern or current production full-autos (M16's, MP5's, AK47's),
in their safes would lose out.

Ones that are no longer produced and are more collectable (Thompsons, MP44's, STG 44's, etc), would probably lose very little
(if any) value... even if someone manufactured reproductions.

MG owners here and I have talked to plenty of others who would love for the Hughes amendment to go away. Loss of money but gaining the chance to buy more, have your kids be able to buy them and to not have to worry the next step was even more paperwork (ie: trust debacle) would be worth it. I am sure a few high end dealers would be unhappy though.

FYI: Rental ranges are typically 07FFls so they build and rent out post samples. Basically no more cost than a semi version.

On a related note: First SBR arrest with a Sig brace on it.

https://www.turlockcitynews.com/cri...the-arrest-of-three-for-turlock-home-invasion

Calistanifornia, though.

I wonder if they used it the way the manufacturer intended it to be used?

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I'm sure a lot depends on what kind of machine guns the investors own.

If the 86 Hughs act was repealed, people with more modern or current production full-autos (M16's, MP5's, AK47's),
in their safes would lose out.

Ones that are no longer produced and are more collectable (Thompsons, MP44's, STG 44's, etc), would probably lose very little
(if any) value... even if someone manufactured reproductions.

I wonder if they used it the way the manufacturer intended it to be used?

This gets thrown out all the time, but does anyone actually know of a machinegun owner that is in favor of the 86 Ban? I know quite a few and none of them, even the dealers, are in favor of it. I sure am not. I'd love to be able to add to my collection. And so what if my beater M11 goes back to being worth the $600 I paid for it. I think it's crazy they are work 5x that now.
 
It's still legal anyway. This isn't even a ruling, it's an opinion letter.
The only opinion that would matter in a court. I would not want to put your assertion to a test.
Any person who intends to use a handgun stabilizing brace as a shoulder stock on a pistol (having a rifled barrel under 16 inches in length or a smooth bore firearm with a barrel under 18 inches in length) must first file an ATF Form 1 and pay the applicable tax because the resulting firearm will be subject to all provisions of the NFA.
 
I'm betting a lot of guns being sold with them are what's making the atf back track now.

Milltary firearms channel had a video about the sig brace a few months ago . Basically said that dig asked him and other YouTube channels not to talk about it , don't show it on film etc till they gave them the ok. Came off like dig wanted to get a crap load out there [emoji48].

Wouldn't if this had any thing todo with the beef with the atf saying the muzzle break is a can.
 
I'm betting a lot of guns being sold with them are what's making the atf back track now.

Milltary firearms channel had a video about the sig brace a few months ago . Basically said that dig asked him and other YouTube channels not to talk about it , don't show it on film etc till they gave them the ok. Came off like dig wanted to get a crap load out there [emoji48].

Wouldn't if this had any thing todo with the beef with the atf saying the muzzle break is a can.

Sig makes me want to buy their stuff with their ATF wallhacks.
 
The only opinion that would matter in a court. I would not want to put your assertion to a test.

Depends on how much money, lawyers, etc that someone could bring to bear, frankly. Not to mention someone actually has to get prosecuted for it- and unless the feds are willing to go full retard and issue yet another letter saying the entire thing is illegal to even have on the "pistol" I wish them the best of luck in doing that. It will be amusing to see if they attempt to prosecute any number of youtube posters who have depicted using this thing as a stock, or for that matter, anyone even using a buffer tube, etc, as a support in any way shape or form for an AR pistol.

-Mike
 
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Depends on how much money, lawyers, etc that someone could bring to bear, frankly. Not to mention someone actually has to get prosecuted for it- and unless the feds are willing to go full retard and issue yet another letter saying the entire thing is illegal to even have on the rifle, I wish them the best of luck in doing that. It will be amusing to see if they attempt to prosecute any number of youtube posters who have depicted using this thing as a stock, or for that matter, anyone even using a buffer tube, etc, as a support in any way shape or form for an AR pistol.

-Mike

No one needs to be prosecuted. See this legal construct: Declaratory Relief

It would seem to some like this is the end of the line barring some legal challenge after an arrest, but there is one last card up SB Tactical’s sleeve: Declaratory Relief.

The concept is pretty straightforward. There’s a provision in U.S. law that allows for a company to bend the ear of a judge and force the government agency to reverse their decision, and it has actually been used successfully as recently as 2014. First, here are the relevant bits of law (teased out of the court documents):

28 U.S.C. § 2201(a) provides in pertinent part “In a case of actual controversy within its jurisdiction, […] any court of the United States, upon the filing of an appropriate pleading, may declare the rights and other legal relations of any interested party seeking such declaration, whether or not further relief is or could be sought. Any such declaration shall have the force and effect of a final judgment or decree and shall be reviewable as such.”

5 U.S.C. § 702 provides that “[a] person suffering legal wrong because of agency action, or adversely affected or aggrieved by agency action within the meaning of a relevant statute, is entitled to judicial review thereof.”

5 U.S.C. § 704 provides in pertinent part that “final agency action for which there is no other adequate remedy in a court are subject to judicial review.”

5 U.S.C. § 551(13) provides that “‘agency action’ includes the whole or a part of an agency rule, order, license, sanction, relief, or the equivalent or denial thereof, or failure to act . . . .”

5 U.S.C. § 551(4) defines a “rule” as “the whole or a part of an agency statement of general or particular applicability and future effect designed to implement, interpret, or prescribe law or policy .


In short, in a situation where an autonomous government agency declares their opinion on the interpretation of a Federal law, anyone who is harmed by that declaration can seek declaratory relief from the court system. It’s a handy tool to keep people like the ATF from arbitrarily and capriciously declaring muzzle brakes as silencers (which SIG SAUER is currently fighting) or pistol braces as stocks.

The specific case referenced for this information is Innovator Enterprises Inc v B. Todd Jones (then director of the ATF). In that case, Innovator Enterprises produced a modified version of Noveske’s Flaming Pig flash suppressor to include a muzzle brake on the inside, but without sealed blast chambers. The ATF took one look at the design and declared it a silencer, much like how they took one look at SIG SAUER’s MPX muzzle brake and similarly declared it a silencer. The judge saw through the ATF’s BS and ruled that their finding was both arbitrary and capricious, invalidating the declaration and making the unholy confabulation once again legal without a tax stamp.

It is entirely possible that we are about to see a similar smackdown take place from SB Tactical. Since the logic used by the ATF is both arbitrary and capricious (their ruling is only for this one device, so using two hands to shoot a handgun would not make that object then an NFA regulated AOW despite the same logic leading to that conclusion, and the flip-floppy nature of their statements) SB Tactical has a good shot at making the ATF eat their words and allowing people to continue to use their firearms however they see fit.


http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...pistol-arm-brace-decision-declaratory-relief/
 
Depends on how much money, lawyers, etc that someone could bring to bear, frankly. Not to mention someone actually has to get prosecuted for it- and unless the feds are willing to go full retard and issue yet another letter saying the entire thing is illegal to even have on the rifle, I wish them the best of luck in doing that. It will be amusing to see if they attempt to prosecute any number of youtube posters who have depicted using this thing as a stock, or for that matter, anyone even using a buffer tube, etc, as a support in any way shape or form for an AR pistol.

-Mike

What's next? The EPA will prosecute you if you breathe in an improper manner inconsistent with the law? It's become laughable....truly laughable!!!!
 
What's next? The EPA will prosecute you if you breathe in an improper manner inconsistent with the law? It's become laughable....truly laughable!!!!

I'm not laughing, I'm puking. Sick of this over-reaching BS department making up its own rules because there is no check to their power.

This doesn't have force of law, what it has is force of prosecution because most joe's won't have the resources to fight the Feds.
 
No one needs to be prosecuted. See this legal construct: Declaratory Relief

Of course the question is, will Sig take the ATF to task on this arm brace issue? Or will they not consider it worth their time... particularly when the device itself isn't banned, just the "method of use". Maybe that's why ATF chose the latter route- because it would make it harder to obtain relief- it's not like they're saying Sig cannot sell the arm brace- so Sig can't really show harm.

-Mike
 
On another forum, a poster brought out a very good point = this whole thing sets a precedent that underminds ALL legality.

It affects all manufactured items, all patents, all forms of licensing, registrations, certifications, classifications, approvals, etc.

In a nutshell, ANYTHING that is manufactured and sold, can now by re-classified (or labeled as "re-designed"), not by an actual legal review, but simply by the opinion of a gov't. Official (in this case, based simply on the way it is handled....... or some other random determination......)
 
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On another forum, a poster brought out a very good point = this whole thing sets a precedent that underminds ALL legality.

It affects all manufactured items, all patents, all forms of licensing, registrations, certifications, classifications, approvals, etc.

In a nutshell, ANYTHING that is manufactured and sold, can now by re-classified (or labeled as "re-designed"), not by an actual legal review, but simply by the opinion of a gov't. Official (in this case, based simply on the way it is handled....... or some other random determination......)


But not really... because the ATF opinion letters are not law. They may serve as evidence/testimony/guidance in a defense or prosecution, but ultimately an ATF opinion letter isn't letter of law. At least that is my understanding of it, and IANAL.

Mike
 
Along with challenging the ATF at every turn, SIG is making a big investment in standalone suppressors, under the name "SIG Sauer Silencers"
SIG said:
“We will vigorously defend the classification of all of our products and our consumers’ right to use them in accordance with the law. If we find that the open letter opinion is outside the scope of the law, we will seek further review.”
Proud to have SIG as a neighbor here in New Hampshire. Now to wait and see what comes of the MPX-C-9-T.
 
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Along with challenging the ATF at every turn, SIG is making a big investment in standalone suppressors, under the name "SIG SIG Sauer Silencers"

Proud to have SIG as a neighbor here in New Hampshire. Now to wait and see what comes of the MPX-C-9-T.

I am interested in their suppressor line, it is the first product they have that I am excited about so I can support them with my business.
 
But not really... because the ATF opinion letters are not law. They may serve as evidence/testimony/guidance in a defense or prosecution, but ultimately an ATF opinion letter isn't letter of law. At least that is my understanding of it, and IANAL.

Mike

True, but reality is that we have activists judges and a system with unlimited budget and activist prosecutors which pretty much make ATF opinion letters defacto laws. At some point may need to secure its "authorita" by going after someone to make an example of, which would in turn scare the crap out of 99% of others.

This in fact no different than Marsha's letters to ammo mailers to Mass. It's not against the law, yet a POS on a crusade can pretty much ruin a business. Sad but true.
 
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