arrrrg, plated xtreme bullets

[marleythefish]

i got a great (or maybe not so great)deal on 500 xtreme .451 230 gr plated flat nose. i use random cases, cci300 primers and 7 gr of power pistol. i set the col at 1.225 aaaaaand they wont chamber. did the barrel drop test and kept shoving the bullet deeper and i finally got the ok at a 1.164 col. will this be ok? im worried that this col will raise the pressure too much, what do you think? BTW its a sig saur xo 1911

 

[bill o]

Something is very wrong here.

ETA: just noticed you're using flat nose 230. 1.16 still sounds pretty short.

 

[marleythefish]

i guess i should have clarified that i used my press to seat the bullet deeper until it chambered properly

 

[Meehuel]

So, you are determining OAL by first finding where the bullet stops the cartridge? Sounds interesting. What do you do with a bullet that is short and/or is tapered? What if you can't make it reach the throat without making OAL longer than max cartridge OAL?

 

[marleythefish]

oh, no, i set the original col by the best info i could find in the reloading manuals, this was 1.225, they wouldnt chamber, so i pressed the bullet in farther untill it chambered properly and that was at col of 1.164, which i think is too short and prolly compressing the powder.

 

[Meehuel]

I'm new to reloading myself as of this year. Something that's gotten on my nerves with the cheaper available bullets is no specified OAL. I got started with a poly bullet that didn't spec anything at all. I did OK with it after making some educated guesses based on "similar" published loads. For now though I'm limiting my choices to those that at a minimum specify OAL.

 

[5 DOLLAR FOOT LONG]

This is probably fine, remember they are flat nose, so the COAL is going to be way shorter than for the round nose stuff just because of that.

I do 1.25 on the round nose and the nose is probably 1/10th longer than your bullets so its probably fine.

e: if youre really compressing things in 45acp i dont know what to tell you, all the poweders I've used would require setting the bullet so far back it would be entirely within the case to even begin to compress the poweder.

 

[mac1911]

Call extreme and ask them.

 

[mac1911]

Call extreme and ask them.

I don't see 230 grain flat nose on berry web site? Are you sure what bullet you have?
I see 200 grain?

 

[bill o]

I'm new to reloading myself as of this year. Something that's gotten on my nerves with the cheaper available bullets is no specified OAL. I got started with a poly bullet that didn't spec anything at all. I did OK with it after making some educated guesses based on "similar" published loads. For now though I'm limiting my choices to those that at a minimum specify OAL.

A lot of the coated bullet manufacturers are small-time operations, so they're not going to do pressure testing or anything like that. For 9/40/45, just go by the common load data used by USPSA/IDPA competitors for major and minor loads.

 

[DW357]

I'm new to reloading myself as of this year. Something that's gotten on my nerves with the cheaper available bullets is no specified OAL. I got started with a poly bullet that didn't spec anything at all. I did OK with it after making some educated guesses based on "similar" published loads. For now though I'm limiting my choices to those that at a minimum specify OAL.

They mention right on their website that you can use mid range jacketed data. I've shot thousands of their bullets in 9mm, 38spl/357 and 44spl/44 mag. I'll begin with the recommended starting charge/OAL for a lead/jacketed bullet of the same design/shape and work up from there. I never got hung up on the OAL.

Though there are some guns like my CZ75 9mm that have short throats and will not chamber hollow point rounds that are longer than 1.10". But that's why I make dummy rounds to test the overall length and make sure they chamber.

 

[Dnotarianni]

Lets start by weighing the bullets and making sure what you have. Xtreem lists a 185, a 200, a 225, and a 255 grain bullet, not a 230 in a FN. Having to go to 1.16 for a length sounds wrong on so many levels. If you send me actual length, weight and and diameter I'll plug it into Quick Load and get actual chamber pressures it should be so you don't blow up the gun or your hand.

 

[Romokid]

I've found a recipe for 185 FP loaded with 6.0 of W231 with a col of 1.19, but yeah make sure you have the right projectile.

 

[thormx538]

Measure the length of one of the bullets for me and I can plug your data in to QL and show you what it says. Won't be perfectly accurate but it should tell you if its safe or not.

 

[marleythefish]

apologies all, i did it again, i say 230 gr when they're actually 225 gr, im not as careless as i may seem, just absent minded. the bullet length is .585 long.

 

[josh2600]

oh, no, i set the original col by the best info i could find in the reloading manuals, this was 1.225, they wouldnt chamber, so i pressed the bullet in farther untill it chambered properly and that was at col of 1.164, which i think is too short and prolly compressing the powder.

That book oal is probably for a round nose. Find a round nose bullet (pref. same weight) and see how much longer it is than the flat, subtract that from what the recommended oal is.

 

[Dnotarianni]

apologies all, i did it again, i say 230 gr when they're actually 225 gr, im not as careless as i may seem, just absent minded. the bullet length is .585 long.

How long is the straight section before it tapers to the point

 

[50wt]

Same bullets here, *edit 1.15 oal and 4.2 bullseye .

 

[Dnotarianni]

i got a great (or maybe not so great)deal on 500 xtreme .451 230 gr plated flat nose. i use random cases, cci300 primers and 7 gr of power pistol. i set the col at 1.225 aaaaaand they wont chamber. did the barrel drop test and kept shoving the bullet deeper and i finally got the ok at a 1.164 col. will this be ok? im worried that this col will raise the pressure too much, what do you think? BTW its a sig saur xo 1911

Not to be rude but if you put a factory 230RN and yours next to each other how do they compare for length? Did you zero your calipers before measuring. I only ask as sometimes the simple things get overlooked.

 

[milktree]

Stupid question:


Do you have separate bullet-seating and crimp dies?

If the crimp stage is the same as the bullet seating stage, and they're too close together, the bullet's bell is going to keep the case from chambering even if the OAL is just fine.

i.e., look at your crimp die, not the bullet seating.

 

[thormx538]

apologies all, i did it again, i say 230 gr when they're actually 225 gr, im not as careless as i may seem, just absent minded. the bullet length is .585 long.

FWIW QL says ~18000 PSI/906fps for a 225gr 0.585" bullet seated to 1.164" on top of 7.0gr Power Pistol in a 5" barrel. SAAMI max is 21000, so you're close.

 

[marleythefish]

FWIW QL says ~18000 PSI/906fps for a 225gr 0.585" bullet seated to 1.164" on top of 7.0gr Power Pistol in a 5" barrel. SAAMI max is 21000, so you're close.

thank you, ive prepared 8 rounds to try in the sig this sunday, i think ill be ok. i shot some in my .460 rowland along with some factory +p rounds and the seat of my pants didnt really tell the diff.

 

[thormx538]

In my experience so far, QL overestimates velocity by ~5%.

Now with pressure, I have no way of determining actual pressure, so I don't know about that. Its really dependent on the distance to the rifling. I used the "normal" jacketed start pressure, which I believe assumes at least a 0.015" jump to the rifling. Are you confident that you have at least that?

 

[noylj]

The only time I have needed a COL (CARTRIDGE OVERALL LENGTH) that short was with H&G #130 "button nose" SWCs.
For a conical flat-point, that sounds really short. The shortest I have seen was 1.200", and that was just the manual's "test" COL and I could easily load longer.

Per Ramshot:
"SPECIAL NOTE ON CARTRIDGE OVERALL LENGTH “COL”
It is important to note that the SAAMI “COL” values are for the firearms and ammunition manufacturers industry and must be seen as a guideline only.
The individual reloader is free to adjust this dimension to suit their particular firearm-component-weapon combination.
This parameter is determined by various dimensions such as
1) magazine length (space),
2) freebore-lead dimensions of the barrel,
3) ogive or profile of the projectile and
4) position of cannelure or crimp groove.
• Always begin loading at the minimum ‘Start Load.’"

Your COL (OAL) is determined by your barrel (chamber and throat dimensions) and your gun (feed ramp) and your magazine (COL that fits magazine and when the magazine lips release the round for feeding) and the PARTICULAR bullet you are using. What worked in a pressure barrel or the lab's gun or in my gun has very little to do with what will work best in your gun.
Take the barrel out of the gun. Create two inert dummy rounds (no powder or primer) at max COL and remove enough case mouth flare for rounds to chamber (you can achieve this by using a sized case—expand-and-flare it, and remove the flare just until the case "plunks" in the barrel).
Drop the inert rounds in and decrease the COL until they chamber completely. This will be your "max" effective COL. I prefer to have the case head flush with the barrel hood. After this, place the inert rounds in the magazine and be sure they fit the magazine and feed and chamber.
You can also do this for any chambering problems you have. Remove the barrel and drop rounds in until you find one that won't chamber. Take that round and "paint" the bullet and case black with Magic Marker or other marker. Drop round in barrel (or gage) and rotate it back-and-forth.
Remove and inspect the round:
1) scratches on bullet--COL is too long
2) scratches on edge of the case mouth--insufficient crimp
3) scratches just below the case mouth--too much crimp, you're crushing the case
4) scratches on case at base of bullet--bullet seated crooked due to insufficient case expansion (not case mouth flare) or improper seating stem fit
5) scratches on case just above extractor groove--case bulge not removed during sizing. May need a bulge buster.

 

[marleythefish]

great posts all, Thank You, i took them to the range, they fired just fine, in fact they grouped very well. there was a lot of flash to be expected given the powder charge. recoil was within what i feel it should be, no ftf or fte. i guess my ocd just got the better of me.

 

[DW357]

there was a lot of flash to be expected given the powder charge.

Glad to hear they shot well. PP is an accurate and flashy powder that's for sure.