Arkansas Votes To Keep Guns Out Of Church

[BBQ.Uncle]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090226/ap_on_re_us/guns_in_church

Attention Nutjobs...Churchgoers are officially easy targets in Arkansas. I imagine a lot of folks will carry anyway...only to be charged with a crime should they happen to prevent a mass murder.



LITTLE ROCK, Ark. – A state Senate panel has rejected a bill that would allow concealed handguns in Arkansas churches, a proposal that divided religious leaders.

The measure would have removed churches and other houses of worship from the list of places where concealed handguns are banned in Arkansas. Only churches and bars are on that list.

The House approved the measure earlier this month. The Senate Judiciary Committee stalled the bill on a voice vote Wednesday.

The bill's sponsor, Rep. Beverly Pyle, R-Cedarville, told the panel after the vote that she may try again with the proposal.

"This is not a gun question, it is a question of religious freedom," Pyle said.

Gov. Mike Beebe has said he'd sign the bill if it made it to his desk.

Nathan Petty, a pastor at Beech Grove Baptist Church in Fordyce, said churches should have the right to decide whether to allow concealed handguns.

"It's not the role of the state to preserve the sanctity of the church, and it's not the role of the state to impose religious judgment calls on churches," Petty said.

But Debra Carl Freeman, pastor of Westover Hills Presbyterian Church in Little Rock, told lawmakers that the proposal went against the nature of churches.

She said the bill "would fundamentally change the perception of sanctuaries in this state from places of safety, peace and openness into those of fear and suspicion."

State Sen. Sue Madison, D-Fayetteville, said she didn't see the need for the bill.

"I don't know of any church where the carrying of guns is a sacred belief intrinsic to the doctrine of that church, like the holding of communion might be," Madison said.

Grant Exton, the executive director of the Arkansas Concealed Carry Association, said of 48 states that allow concealed carry permits, 42 let churches make the decision to ban or allow firearms.

 

[clinotus]

I think any obeying a prohibition like this is crazy. Concealed means concealed. You are responsible for your safety and the safety of your family. Taking them to a target shoot, an announced target shoot that you complied with would be is insanity.

 

[Bill Nance]

Again, this is a property rights vs 2A issue.

Using the power of the state to tell you you can't carry at all is an abuse of the state's power. Using the state's power to dictate what a property owner can and can't allow on his property is equally an abuse of power.

If I go into a store that has a sign "No CCW here" I should either abide by the wishes of the establishment or go elsewhere. How would the business owners here feel if the Govt told them they HAD to allow radical Muslims to proselytize in their shops?

 

[SA John]

I know a few ex-alter boys still in therapy who probably wished they'd been packing in church once upon a time.

 

[Chris]

How soon until they understand that the ones who would do this legally will be unable to stop the one who does it illegally?

 

[SA John]

How soon until they understand that the ones who would do this legally will be unable to stop the one who does it illegally?

Chris: Try that again. I think I know what you mean but that sentence is confusing at best. You mean a legal gun guy is now unarmed in church and so he can not stop the illegal gun guy who has entered the church with his gun, correct?

I'm not try to have fun with you, I really couldn't understand the first sentence's meaning as printed. Probably me, not you.

Now I'll ask the question we all want to know: What does god pack? Being an old bugger, I figure he carries some kind of wheel gun. And he never, ever misses. (Been banned in some IDPA matches for an ungodly, unfair advantage. This is a true story.)

 

[Bob P]

I like this guy's opinion:

Nathan Petty, a pastor at Beech Grove Baptist Church in Fordyce, said churches should have the right to decide whether to allow concealed handguns.

"It's not the role of the state to preserve the sanctity of the church, and it's not the role of the state to impose religious judgment calls on churches," Petty said.

Seperation means just that. Government; MYOB

Personally, I've never had a problem with a church being anti-gun. IMO (and this is just my opinion, feel free to disagree but respect my right to have it) violence of any nature is inconsistent with a 'true' Christian life. Christ was pretty clear with the 'turn the other cheek' and 'give them your shoes too' comments that his expectation of his followers is passive resistance a la Ghandi.

I think that's the ideal. I know I don't live up to that but that's between me and God. I don't judge others on that decision either. Someone threatens me and my family I'm going to resist pretty damned activly but again, that's a choice I've made and I'm prepared to accept the legal, moral and spiritual consequences.

 

[Yelena]

That will certainly prevent carrying and using weapons illegally!

I agree with pastor Nathat Petty. It must be up to churches to decide wheather to allow weapons during the services.

 

[Cato]

Now I'll ask the question we all want to know: What does god pack?

A 1911 of course.

 

[GrendelKhan]

A 1911 of course.

Beat me to it.

 

[SA John]

A 1911 of course.

How could I have not seen this? I've been enlightened at last.

 

[Cherokee_Outlaw]

A 1911 of course.

I'm sorry but "“In a World of Compromise, God Doesn’t”

 

[Bob P]

OK, in spite of what I said here earlier, I've got to say that the avatar of Jesus with the AR-15 never fails to make me smile.

 

[FunYun]

Again, this is a property rights vs 2A issue.

Using the power of the state to tell you you can't carry at all is an abuse of the state's power. Using the state's power to dictate what a property owner can and can't allow on his property is equally an abuse of power.

If I go into a store that has a sign "No CCW here" I should either abide by the wishes of the establishment or go elsewhere. How would the business owners here feel if the Govt told them they HAD to allow radical Muslims to proselytize in their shops?

Private property vs. publicly accessible private property

If people in wheel chairs have the right to a ramp, I don't see how I don't have the right to carry.

 

[clinotus]

Private property vs. publicly accessible private property

If people in wheel chairs have the right to a ramp, I don't see how I don't have the right to carry.

The State is responsible to see its citizens are treated fairly and with equal footing for its mandated rights. Your personal rights end at your feet.

 

[SA John]

I'm sorry but "“In a World of Compromise, God Doesn’t”

I would have stolen that line if I could have gotten away with it.

 

[Pete85]

"If a man comes to kill you, rise up quickly and kill him first" -Torah (not sure of the verse)
"Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow: [this also applies to defending any innocent person from unjust aggression.]" - Pope John Paul II
"He who doesnt have a sword sell your cloak and buy one"- Luke 22:36
"He who lives by the sword dies by the sword" - Matthew 26:52 - Given the above quotes, I've personally always understood this last one to be the aggressor is the one living by the sword, and the one who should die by the sword.

The case for being armed in church is strong, and since a church is private property I don't see how a state can ban the carrying of arms in such a building.

 

[drgrant]

I'm sorry but "“In a World of Compromise, God Doesn’t”

Yeah, but if that were the case, he'd be carrying an HK, given that statement.

-Mike

 

[Cherokee_Outlaw]

Yeah, but if that were the case, he'd be carrying an HK, given that statement.

-Mike

umm he does..

 

[Palladin]

Seperation of church & state???
who remembers THIS guy???

http://www.boston.com/news/local/ma...n_lawmaker_priest_and_target_of_fbi_scrutiny/

 

[Cato]

How could I have not seen this? I've been enlightened at last.

Here is the scripture that makes it clear.



John 19:11

1. In the beginning was the 1911, and the 1911 was the pistol, and it was good. And behold the Lord said, thou shalt not muck with my disciple John's design for it is good and it worketh. For John made the 1911, and lo all of his weapons, from the designs which I, the Lord, gave him upon the mountain.

2. And shouldst thou muck with it and hang all manner of foul implements upon it, and profane its internal parts, thou shalt surely have malfunctions, and in the midst of battle thou shalt surely come to harm.

 

[BBQ.Uncle]

Here is the scripture that makes it clear.



John 19:11

1. In the beginning was the 1911, and the 1911 was the pistol, and it was good. And behold the Lord said, thou shalt not muck with my disciple John's design for it is good and it worketh. For John made the 1911, and lo all of his weapons, from the designs which I, the Lord, gave him upon the mountain.

2. And shouldst thou muck with it and hang all manner of foul implements upon it, and profane its internal parts, thou shalt surely have malfunctions, and in the midst of battle thou shalt surely come to harm.

That's some righteously funny sh*t right there.

 

[MaverickNH]

The government licenses bars, so imagines it has the power to regulate who does what in bars.

The government's only role in churches is to make sure neither government nor private citizens/organizations do not interfere with what goes on in a church (short of human sacrifice and the little problem with Catholic preists).

This one seems ripe for judicial appeal. But then again, I don't know how the Southern Man thinks - maybe this makes sense to them?

If & when the 2ndA is incorporated against the states, this BS might stop. But then again (again) this might be one of those "reasonable" gun laws...

 

[SA John]

Here is the scripture that makes it clear.



John 19:11

1. In the beginning was the 1911, and the 1911 was the pistol, and it was good. And behold the Lord said, thou shalt not muck with my disciple John's design for it is good and it worketh. For John made the 1911, and lo all of his weapons, from the designs which I, the Lord, gave him upon the mountain.

2. And shouldst thou muck with it and hang all manner of foul implements upon it, and profane its internal parts, thou shalt surely have malfunctions, and in the midst of battle thou shalt surely come to harm.

You're just disturbed enough to be a keeper. That was funny as hell.

 

[Garys]

Seems to me that this is more a First Amendment issue than a Second Amendment one. Then again, what do I know? It should be up to the individual churches to decide if they want people to carry inside or not.

 

[mikem317]

I'd still carry concealed if going to church was important to me.

I mean, they ban carry in the post office, they ban it on school campuses, they ban it in bars and restaurants...

You can get around this by simply not visiting the establishments. That's what I do. Or I don't carry if I'm in a prohibited zone.

But if they ban concealed carry everywhere? Then they also made me and several million other responsible and peaceable gun owners instant criminals.

 

[sig shooter]

I'd still carry concealed if going to church was important to me.

I mean, they ban carry in the post office, they ban it on school campuses, they ban it in bars and restaurants...

You can get around this by simply not visiting the establishments. That's what I do. Or I don't carry if I'm in a prohibited zone.

But if they ban concealed carry everywhere? Then they also made me and several million other responsible and peaceable gun owners instant criminals.

+1 Sheep who comply get brought to slaughter.

 

[mikem317]

+1 Sheep who comply get brought to slaughter.

There's no way I'm leaving my house without being able to protect myself. I, like many other NES posters, have a paternal obligation to defend my family from those that wish us harm.

I'm very peaceable.

But don't try to hurt me or take my property.

At any rate, this is a private property versus civil rights issue. I ultimately agreed with Garys on a similar issue that was hashed out over several pages a few months ago.

 

[Bill Nance]

Private property vs. publicly accessible private property

If people in wheel chairs have the right to a ramp, I don't see how I don't have the right to carry.

Sorry, this has nothing to do with handicap accessible. I remind you that the original wording of the declaration of independence was life, liberty and PROPERTY...a direct quote from John Locke. It was amended after consultation.

Property rights are probably the most fundamental aspect of our system. Anything that messes with them has to bear an ENORMOUS burden of showing a societal harm before it can be justified. Carrying a CCW on private property in violation of the property owner's wishes is bad news.

If what you stated is your actual view, don't ever whine again about 2A being incrementally restricted.

2A, like 1A, applies to GOVERNMENT. NOT to individuals. Try "free speech" on this forum in violation of the rules. See how far that gets you. A Church has no lesser rights.

 

[Bill Nance]

Here is the scripture that makes it clear.



John 19:11

1. In the beginning was the 1911, and the 1911 was the pistol, and it was good. And behold the Lord said, thou shalt not muck with my disciple John's design for it is good and it worketh. For John made the 1911, and lo all of his weapons, from the designs which I, the Lord, gave him upon the mountain.

2. And shouldst thou muck with it and hang all manner of foul implements upon it, and profane its internal parts, thou shalt surely have malfunctions, and in the midst of battle thou shalt surely come to harm.

Awesome dude, I will write this sucker in memory.

John Moses Browning...Blessed Be His Name.