AR accuracy and ammo

Joined
Jan 17, 2015
Messages
210
Likes
34
Location
Holyoke
Feedback: 2 / 0 / 0
So I have been working on my AR looking to get solid .223/5.56 accuracy. So I have a few questions and I'm sure I could find them if I searched hard enough, but mostly what I've seen is political answers like "every gun is different and likes different ammo" or "take it to a gun smith, this 1900s technology be complicated".

So far in my quest I have a free float barrel, Giessele 2 stage trigger, primary arms 1-6 with accs reticle, federal gold medal match 69gr sierra match king bullets, .223 wild 1:8 twist 18" barrel with mizzle brake supported by a sand bag and bipod to get 1MOA accuracy. In pretty much ever other ammo I have tried I am at 4-5MOA.

Should I be getting better accuracy out of standard walmart .30/round ammo than 5" at 100 yards? what are some good rounds under .50/round? the gold medal isn't horrible at .75/round, but still I'd be happy with 2MOA at under .50/round. So biggest question is whats the best(most accurate) cheap .223/5.56.

Secondary is what else can I do to get more accuracy out of cheap ammo? Would a stainless match barrel make a difference or would I be wasting my money shooting out a $300 barrel with cheap ammo? Would a slower 1:9 or 1:12 work better with 55gr standard ammo?
 
Sounds like you should be better than 5moa at 100 yards with any ammo.
After that id say start reloading.
The federal 55g from Walmart seems to suck in most of my rifles.

Would a slower 1:9 or 1:12 work better with 55gr standard ammo?

Probably

- - - Updated - - -

Start reloading.

LOl beat me to it

- - - Updated - - -

Are you a member of the holyoke revolver club?
 
what type of barrel you using? if you really want a bench rest gun go with a match grade barrel. Criterion barrels are excellent, as are many others. my experience with XM193 and other cheapie 55 gr ammo's are that best around 2MOA and seems for me the 1:9 is best twist rate. however my 1:8 twist ruger american ranch rifle shoots the 55gr crap ammo very well, around 2-3 MOA.

yes there are people out there claiming sub MOA from bulk 55gr ammo. i've never consistently seen it and it doesn't make sense based on the quality of the ammo.

and definitely have someone else shoot your rifle before deciding it needs more tuning. it's one reason I bring my wife to range. she has excellent technique and zero flinch whatsoever. so much so it's irritating.

--

below are groups from the ruger american ranch 5.56 at 100 yards on sandbag. the group with XM193 is probably the best performance from such ammo one could ever expect to see. nothing else I own can fling XM193 this well. in contrast checkout the XM855 which is awful.

IMG_3465 2.jpg IMG_3466 2.jpg IMG_3473.jpg IMG_3474.jpg
 
So I have been working on my AR looking to get solid .223/5.56 accuracy. So I have a few questions and I'm sure I could find them if I searched hard enough, but mostly what I've seen is political answers like "every gun is different and likes different ammo" or "take it to a gun smith, this 1900s technology be complicated".

So far in my quest I have a free float barrel, Giessele 2 stage trigger, primary arms 1-6 with accs reticle, federal gold medal match 69gr sierra match king bullets, .223 wild 1:8 twist 18" barrel with mizzle brake supported by a sand bag and bipod to get 1MOA accuracy. In pretty much ever other ammo I have tried I am at 4-5MOA.

Should I be getting better accuracy out of standard walmart .30/round ammo than 5" at 100 yards? what are some good rounds under .50/round? the gold medal isn't horrible at .75/round, but still I'd be happy with 2MOA at under .50/round. So biggest question is whats the best(most accurate) cheap .223/5.56.

Secondary is what else can I do to get more accuracy out of cheap ammo? Would a stainless match barrel make a difference or would I be wasting my money shooting out a $300 barrel with cheap ammo? Would a slower 1:9 or 1:12 work better with 55gr standard ammo?

In not sure if I understand you.
Are you getting MOA with the federal match right now. If so go out and buy several thousand rounds of the same lot number or set up to reload.

Now if your buying the cheapest 556/223 you can find expect anything but moa or even 2 moa. Your going to get hits on target accuracy with anything mil spec. M193/855
A match barrel will not make shit ammo shoot better.
In this thread I put a few different types of ammo down my match barreled service rifle.
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...-A-quick-comparison-of-different-bullets-ammo

So start from the beginning
What rifle are you running , barrel manufacture and such.
Can you take the muzzle device off. I have grown to like my ARs with out any muzzle devices.
 
Last edited:
Try changing the weight of the bullet before thinking of changing barrels. My 1:8 prefers a heavier BT bullet.
 
Try changing the weight of the bullet before thinking of changing barrels. My 1:8 prefers a heavier BT bullet.

1:8 is pretty versatile should toss 50-77s well if you find the load. I shoot some 50 grain varmint bullets out of my 1/8 heavy barrel was getting close to MOA right out of the gate but that's reloading.

A short list of ammo that has done well by me.
Wolf gold
Fed GMM
Remington 55 grain soft points green and yellow box...more of a hunting round
PPU match about the cheapest "match" ammo out there.
PPU M193

Stay away from anything M855 it's just not worth it if your looking for accuracy.
 
someone recently turned me on to fiocci 223hva50. I don't know the price, but it is worth a look. In my 1/12 twist I was shooting sub MOA. Not as good as hand loads, but better than Federal gold medal in my gun.

Dave
 
what type of barrel you using? if you really want a bench rest gun go with a match grade barrel. Criterion barrels are excellent, as are many others. my experience with XM193 and other cheapie 55 gr ammo's are that best around 2MOA and seems for me the 1:9 is best twist rate. however my 1:8 twist ruger american ranch rifle shoots the 55gr crap ammo very well, around 2-3 MOA.

yes there are people out there claiming sub MOA from bulk 55gr ammo. i've never consistently seen it and it doesn't make sense based on the quality of the ammo.

and definitely have someone else shoot your rifle before deciding it needs more tuning. it's one reason I bring my wife to range. she has excellent technique and zero flinch whatsoever. so much so it's irritating.

--

below are groups from the ruger american ranch 5.56 at 100 yards on sandbag. the group with XM193 is probably the best performance from such ammo one could ever expect to see. nothing else I own can fling XM193 this well. in contrast checkout the XM855 which is awful.

View attachment 204936 View attachment 204937 View attachment 204938 View attachment 204939

Yeah my typical group with most ammo I've tried is similar to your xm855 groups and only federal gold medal match 69 gr sierra match king gave me MOA groups(all inside one of those squares). Using an 18" spiral fluted HBAR chrome moly 1:8 twist barrel I got off ebay for $80. A barrel upgrade would be the next big jump, just not sure if it's worth it. I'd probably go with a 20" stainless WOA without the threaded barrel and target crown.

This is from a .223 Wylde 16 incher , Velocity trigger PWS Muzzle with Just Wolf Gold ammo at 100 yards

I'm going to have to try some Wolf Gold.

Try changing the weight of the bullet before thinking of changing barrels. My 1:8 prefers a heavier BT bullet.

69gr worked well in mine so far. 75gr produced bigger groups, 62gr and 55gr also had bigger groups if going by the weight of the bullets I've tried alone. 55gr is the more common weight though so that is the best weight to get accuracy out of if possible.



In not sure if I understand you.
Are you getting MOA with the federal match right now. If so go out and buy several thousand rounds of the same lot number or set up to reload.

Now if your buying the cheapest 556/223 you can find expect anything but moa or even 2 moa. Your going to get hits on target accuracy with anything mil spec. M193/855
A match barrel will not make shit ammo shoot better.
In this thread I put a few different types of ammo down my match barreled service rifle.
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbu...t-bullets-ammo m

Yeah so far only federal gold medal match 69gr sierra match king has given me decent accuracy everything else was pretty far off. Tried other match factory ammo like hornady black and superformance 75gr, but still not great.

toBKqViZT2aMNioGFqUyDQLtilgdVCUsjVN0OjyFHgRr1CRMhLOfJyhlig2cZUdMoZbzW125OgXbTDOZ_zJ2q-Fdw1cVes8iNbpaFXBssJo52Gf4q0K4vOVBRb6fRiufm857HJ62fthtt0Q6mAm8okVhb1B2VNJ79J_E7Nh8TdzdpiebfgsaKzF-GFsgsLQMLFJLC9etyp6wry5k5qAIAbTjTdsN2mt8343GK7s5jiWQK9BZjGrJmq6RDzRRSsi5kUGpF-zjV0xu6HrAwXhQQE6hThF2UmtuAzJ74XPZsV0dd0GBO9MAHnk8OXTpLdFEo6vbLWJwlqCmDuxAO1HgvTwdCjAjzgQc8kRYoxUNLTfUIq26X-lJ8rep1i__kmHxKf83DD-7xK2bzQoBDDz51hE6d3HkMZsgM-P917lrCv_43BDeUQ5VzHVwEpHjg4psT7f9AQJXd_W0JRi5aYMZ1ZlJ_zR88XXpAvHJQQKVb1H1zjJ0gOwNFE2WoyQnoN-eznY51veaT_64crhrgCjapsmq3OwXb9FyX3RDtGFZqP-WjHVDwZ_I-P1HZ9nMDkQ7O8D1bZKfFKR57FbgBdsBHMe79f6e7-q3ADPHfb50Rp-VIlE4BEY1=w640-h480-no
Lmvbpom0bG-EojOfRa3DdyVDlcrOywJb2a9qBKg8jjr8RpRKmj4k1E9sC4nOpW3ziAjjTEamRCyJJI4xAq7Opvef-PQ3_EABN937NvIvM1pDI3WhZgj1FD2xvmgMxF8-85S2hTIRKsu9Kra4mh113jSMgNP7AGJurJj87YQc0GVdFY8Ej_BbUuoPdex_iSwhXaplIlgL0fsox5Ci95YVjR0_CZozkqY6KyGXLiEP5CuEqc5zCicVLT5Wvn19fJL_EX9f5A7X-ZC1lE7D6ULbt-VBiuac1_ANnDaOZXSg-jdLro0eW1eRgKFUGKYneUo8rWpq4TxBGjW4kQBQJWPL-LTSLsvfT1uxp-iEOOvh3S6Nat8yoMlKKTA4rc2cpeOUPbaTvJJjI2hFCST9OYCvtulSawbhr-x0xEbi1Qk2WvdGBZ6xot8cldLfUibUxWrZiC22xTSvLq8eyLrNolChmtar-I8taW0I9Ndnt1O30n0sL7UnKMXiVXnZlyLgSaa7lKADoq39f4r30pC23ITauhVV0ZBa8cWEijZww1y0zVd9I_dg0s2n6aCev6-sEnGb-xVrzvN55FklKL7rhs-bdyDfBD-Te0WPBw2t_IC-V8Q4q74QPJSz=w640-h480-no



5 shot groups with gold medal. I should probably just start reloading and fine tuning a load with the 69gr sierra match king bullets. Just wondering if there is a cheaper easier shortcut.. :)

1:8 is pretty versatile should toss 50-77s well if you find the load. I shoot some 50 grain varmint bullets out of my 1/8 heavy barrel was getting close to MOA right out of the gate but that's reloading.

A short list of ammo that has done well by me.
Wolf gold
Fed GMM
Remington 55 grain soft points green and yellow box...more of a hunting round
PPU match about the cheapest "match" ammo out there.
PPU M193

Stay away from anything M855 it's just not worth it if your looking for accuracy.

Great I'll try some of those. Looks like I've seen two votes for wolf gold on this thread so far!. I've tried the PPU stuff and not great accuracy on my setup.


open

open
 
Last edited:
1:8 is pretty versatile should toss 50-77s well if you find the load. I shoot some 50 grain varmint bullets out of my 1/8 heavy barrel was getting close to MOA right out of the gate but that's reloading.

A short list of ammo that has done well by me.
Wolf gold
Fed GMM
Remington 55 grain soft points green and yellow box...more of a hunting round
PPU match about the cheapest "match" ammo out there.
PPU M193

Stay away from anything M855 it's just not worth it if your looking for accuracy.

What i run into is my longest barrel is 16"...so 55g arent accurate and keyhole... i will admit with a 16" its better but if i had go 16" or longer i would consider a different twist rate barrel.
55g seems to be the most common .223 out there. I bet id like the 62grain wolf gold... just i only ever see it available online.
 
What i run into is my longest barrel is 16"...so 55g arent accurate and keyhole... i will admit with a 16" its better but if i had go 16" or longer i would consider a different twist rate barrel.
55g seems to be the most common .223 out there. I bet id like the 62grain wolf gold... just i only ever see it available online.

Why do you think your 16" barrel is causing you issues?
 
n4xdjgS.png


I reload with Varget and use CCI BR 2 PRIMERS. The 5 shot group was made with left over reloads for the factory barrel that I used for deer hunting before I got the WHITE OAK ARMAMENT 18" VARMINT BARREL with 1 in 7" twist. If you want yours to shoot like mine do what I did. The scope lets you see the bullet holes in your target at 100 yards. It is a great scope!!!! The ultra High Rings are made to give you a perfect cheek weld so you look through the center of the scope lens. My AR is perfectly balanced right in front of the magazine with the scope and a full 20 round magazine. Once you buy from WOA you will never buy from someone else.

The WOA upper I got shot the group right out of the box after I sighted it in which only took a few shots.

https://www.whiteoakarmament.com/shop/complete-uppers.html

http://www.opticsplanet.com/bushnell-ar-optics-4-5-18x40-riflescope-w-bdc-reticle-matte-black.html

http://www.opticsplanet.com/warne-m...rings-ultra-high-1-inch-diameter-black-a.html

SSA-E TRIGGER

https://geissele.com/super-semi-automatic-enhanced-ssa-e-trigger.html
 
Last edited:
Its not... its every barrel under 16" 1:7 twist that lobs 55g all over the place..


Its my fault i wasnt very clear
Im actually surprised your getting key holing even with a sub 16" barrel 1;7 might be a tad fast for 55s for best accuracy but key holing ?
o well at least you found what your rifle does not like.
That's the key right there find what your rifle likes and buy a shit ton of it.
 
Reload....I would be mad if I didn't find an under 2MOA load for my HBar!

Here's a pic of my "plinking" loads....

HBAR-07317-Xtreme-910.jpg
 
Mac1911 has given you an excellent list of ammo. It's also my experience that, for a cheap plinking round it is very tough to beat Wolf Gold. Shoots well out of all 4 of the AR's I own. Have you tried Hornady A-Max of V-Max ammo? (I think it's 60 grain) I find that shoots very well. For match ammo, you might also try Blackhills.

Also, if you are getting 5 MOA with any ammo, it sounds like something is off. But for the fact that you seem to get 1 MOA with FGMM, I would say check to insure scope is on tight, or be sure you technique isn't at fault.
 
Get Blackhills in 55gr and 77gr. Shoot both from a bench, or better yet have someone you know who is a better shooter than you shoot 5 shots of each benched.

I'm guessing it is probably you, not the gun. Also may want to double check that barrel nut is actually tight [shocked]

5MOA is ridiculous. Like smoothbore ridiculous.


ETA:

When you say 5MAO, are you talking about a 5" diameter group or a 10"?

A 4" diameter group is 2MOA, not 4MOA. It's the deviation from the center of the group, not the diameter. For reference the DOD standard for M193 is it must be sub 2MOA. So a 3.99" group at 100Y is acceptable.
 
Last edited:
Try Hornady Superformance Varmint 53gr.

The MOST accurate ammo out of my 20" 1:8 .223 Wylde chambered AR. 55gr V-Max is a close second. yes, more accurate than GMM or any of the other 69 - 77gr 'match' rounds out of my gun.

The limiting factor *may* be the low power of your scope.
 
A 4" diameter group is 2MOA, not 4MOA. It's the deviation from the center of the group, not the diameter. For reference the DOD standard for M193 is it must be sub 2MOA. So a 3.99" group at 100Y is acceptable.

Sorry, but you have that wrong.

See the pics below, note .3" group @ 100 yards is .3 MOA
 

Attachments

  • 4166.jpg
    4166.jpg
    20.9 KB · Views: 37
Sorry, but you have that wrong.

See the pics below, note .3" group @ 100 yards is .3 MOA

The deviation spec on M193 is not diameter. It's radius because it's accuracy, not precision.

And what you're program is calculating is the shot to shot distance, not the accuracy. Accuracy is the distance from POA to POI. Precision is the distance shot to shot. You're pic shows good precision, but not good accuracy. Relatively speaking of course. Obviously, that's good shooting [grin]

accuracy_vs_precision_556.jpg
 
Last edited:
The deviation spec on M193 is not diameter. It's radius because it's accuracy, not precision.

And what you're program is calculating is the shot to shot distance, not the accuracy. Accuracy is the distance from POA to POI. Precision is the distance shot to shot.

I'm not familiar with the mil standards for ammo...but i have always understood MOA to be the degree of angle for the shot spread (precision), not the deviation from point of aim (accuracy).
 
The mil standards require shooting at a target. I agree the methodology is ridiculous, but they do it on purpose to make it sound like they are keep the group size smaller than it actually is when you get into the nitty gritty.

Like most government regulations they are written to support lies.
 
The mil standards require shooting at a target. I agree the methodology is ridiculous, but they do it on purpose to make it sound like they are keep the group size smaller than it actually is when you get into the nitty gritty.

Like most government regulations they are written to support lies.

So if i join the military, i'm a 0.1x MOA shooter.

Got it. [laugh]
 
So if i join the military, i'm a 0.1x MOA shooter.

Got it. [laugh]

Have you seen some of the army infantry shoot? Lol. You're a scout sniper compared to the average guy coming off the street.

The sad fact is even M193 is better ammo than the majority of people issued a rifle in the US military can shoot with the equipment provided.
 
If your chasing sub moa regardless of the ammo start with a decent barrel, which it doesn't sound like you have. Your wasting your time otherwise.

Post #2 I like, right to the point. Start reloading. It's really the only economical way to shoot the good groups your seeking and you can tailor them to your individual firearm.

If I had to suggest a barrel get yourself a Larue stealth for $225, pick your length. Will be the best money you've spent thusfar. BHW stainless polygonal barrels have also shot great for me.
 
Back
Top Bottom