AR-15 lower sale issues

Joined
Mar 6, 2009
Messages
77
Likes
5
Location
Western MA
Feedback: 12 / 0 / 0
Greetings,

I have 2 stripped M&P15 lowers that I bought from S&W. When I bought them they were registered as firearms and I got a FA-10 form with each. Now I have a buyer interested in them and need to know if we need to fill out an FA-10 because they are registered. I have read that stripped lowers do not need to be filed until they are made into a rifle. I figure that these will need to have an FA-10 submitted. Another question that I have is if complete lowers are considered a firearm.

Thank You,
Steve
 
All these issues have been rehashed so many times.

No FA-10 is required for transfer of a virgin stripped lower.

Complete lowers are not firearms.
 
I have read the threads already and could not find an answer to my specific question. Your answer has not clearly fullfilled my question. By virgin do you mean never registered as mine are? Mine are virgin in the sense that they are untouched nib, but they are registered.
 
as some here have suggested before .............

When S&W sold you the two new stripped lowers, and filed FA-10's, those FA-10's that they filed were invalid.

FA-10's are only required for complete firearms.

YMMV
 
as some here have suggested before .............

When S&W sold you the two new stripped lowers, and filed FA-10's, those FA-10's that they filed were invalid.

FA-10's are only required for complete firearms.

YMMV

And according to a very reliable source, I am told that if it is obvious to CHSB that it is a FA-10 for a frame (or BB/pellet gun), they will NOT scan it in and just trash it. However if S&W falsified info (caliber, bbl length) on the FA-10, it would look like a complete gun to CHSB and they would process it.

Regardless, it is improper to fill one out on a frame.
 
I bought a used lower that had an FA-10 filed on it by the previous owner when he had it attached to an upper. When I bought it from him, we wrote up a Bill of Sale and an FA-10 for informational purposes only for our records, it was not sent in. When I set it up with an upper, I sent in a new FA-10 with no seller info, just "registration" checked off.
 
I have purchased 3 stripped lowers from 3 different Mass FFL all with FA10 ? Is this a cover my ass issue on the FFL ? I would think by now this would be sorted out ESPECIALLY on the MA FFL end.
Also is it not the responsability of the seller to submit a FA10, I would use some sort of firearms transanction form or sales reciept. I would also accept a FA10 from the seller. THEN when you put it together submit your own FA10 for your completed rifle.
I think the problem arrises from the fact that MA AWB almost mirrors the FED AWB, and like all MA laws, I quess they will let it read and be defined to their(MA) benifit if a case arises.
 
Once I get the lower into a complete rifle when I fill out the FA-10 form does that count towards the 4 gun a year rule or is that only if I am selling a firearm? In advance sorry if this is a stupid question.
 
I think the problem arrises from the fact that MA AWB almost mirrors the FED AWB, and like all MA laws, I quess they will let it read and be defined to their(MA) benifit if a case arises.

The MA AWB Has nothing to do with this.Fedral law says that the lower is the firearm(or controled part). Thats why it must go through a FFL. However Mass state law says for it to be considered a firearm it Must be able to fire a round. And what would you put on an fa-10 for barrel lenth or even caliber( Multi caliber lower).
 
Once I get the lower into a complete rifle when I fill out the FA-10 form does that count towards the 4 gun a year rule or is that only if I am selling a firearm? In advance sorry if this is a stupid question.

4 per calendar year is only the limit you can sell on an FA-10 - you can buy as many as you want - or can afford. [grin]
 
Virgin = never assembled into rifle. Once you get it built, it becomes a gray area.

Can you elaborate on what the gray area is?

Is the gray area after it is a complete rifle or is the gray area on just a lower that at one time in it's 20 year history it had been a complete rifle but is not now at the moment a complete rifle and what makes it a gray area?
 
Can you elaborate on what the gray area is?

Is the gray area after it is a complete rifle or is the gray area on just a lower that at one time in it's 20 year history it had been a complete rifle but is not now at the moment a complete rifle and what makes it a gray area?

Case law has specified that a firearm that has been taken apart does not cease to be a firearm. You can search for details.
 
And according to a very reliable source, I am told that if it is obvious to CHSB that it is a FA-10 for a frame (or BB/pellet gun), they will NOT scan it in and just trash it. However if S&W falsified info (caliber, bbl length) on the FA-10, it would look like a complete gun to CHSB and they would process it.

With most dealers these days are just plugging stuff straight into the state's computers, is that still relevant?

With regard to the gray area, I believe it's that some people consider the CHSB reporting requirement irrelevant to home builds, since the requirement for reporting is when one "purchases or obtains" a gun. If you built it, did you "obtain" it? FIIK. MGL: http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/140-128b.htm
 
With regard to the gray area, I believe it's that some people consider the CHSB reporting requirement irrelevant to home builds, since the requirement for reporting is when one "purchases or obtains" a gun. If you built it, did you "obtain" it? FIIK. MGL: http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/140-128b.htm

Yep - I was told that when I picked up my 308 lower. The FFL correctly did not FA-10 the lower, but then told me I never had to file one because it's a home build. [thinking] I don't know what the little voices told him, but my interpretation of MGL140-128b is that as soon as I have met the MGL140-121 definition of 'Rifle' with my build (“Rifle”, a weapon having a rifled bore with a barrel length equal to or greater than 16 inches and capable of discharging a shot or bullet for each pull of the trigger.), then I have "obtain(ed) a firearm, rifle or shotgun or machine gun from any source within or without the commonwealth", and need to follow the reporting requirements of MGL140-128b. It doesn't appear gray to me, but I would like to know where the theory that FA-10s aren't needed for home builds came from, just out of morbid curiousity. [hmmm]
 
The "home build" IE, AR15, is a new twist in the law that that I had never heard about before. Very interesting, I wonder if Mass has an official position on this.

Chapter 140: Section 128B. Unauthorized purchase of firearms; report to commissioner; penalties

Section 128B. Any resident of the commonwealth who purchases or obtains a firearm, rifle or shotgun or machine gun from any source within or without the commonwealth, other than from a licensee under section one hundred and twenty-two or a person authorized to sell firearms under section one hundred and twenty-eight A, and any nonresident of the commonwealth who purchases or obtains a firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun from any source within or without the commonwealth, other than such a licensee or person, and receives such firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun, within the commonwealth shall within seven days after receiving such firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun, report, in writing, to the executive director of the criminal history systems board the name and address of the seller or donor and the buyer or donee, together with a complete description of the firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun, including the caliber, make and serial number. Whoever violates any provision of this section shall for the first offense be punished by a fine of not less than $500 nor more than $1,000 and for any subsequent offense by imprisonment in the state prison for not more than ten years.


So, there are 2 issues. The first seems pretty clear, "if any resident ..obtains.. from any source " would seem to cover home builds.

But, I always read from the experts on this forum, that the intent of the law was to record transfers between parties and that this statute was not a firearm registration statute, so the requirement of reporting who the transferring party is, (for a home build there is no transferring party) I suppose, raises the question as to whether filing an FA-10 would be required ?
 
Case law has specified that a firearm that has been taken apart does not cease to be a firearm. You can search for details.

So I decided to search for details and this is what I found. Case law May-Oct 2009 Suffolk County, MA

It doesn't appear gray to this case, where the state in order to convict for possession of a firearm without a license must prove the firearm is operable and capable of discharging a bullet.

At the trial of a complaint charging possession of a firearm without a license, the judge erred in admitting in evidence a ballistics certificate without providing the defendant an opportunity to cross-examine the certifying ballistician; where the certificate was the only evidence enabling the Commonwealth to meet its burden of proof that the pistol was a working firearm, the error required reversal of the verdict. [362-364]


The link has the rest of it.

http://masscases.com/cases/app/75/75massappct361.html


ETA: At least in this case, it appears that the state has the burden to prove that the firearm is indeed functional. I don't see how anybody could reason that a lower, even though it had been a complete firearm 20 years ago, without constructive parts in possession, could still be considered a firearm because it is not capable of discharging a round without a barrel. Maybe disasembled with all parts available, but just a lower i don't see how given the states burden to show the firearm is functional to charge with illegal possession. Maybe I am confusing something.
 
Last edited:
The MA AWB Has nothing to do with this.Fedral law says that the lower is the firearm(or controled part). Thats why it must go through a FFL. However Mass state law says for it to be considered a firearm it Must be able to fire a round. And what would you put on an fa-10 for barrel lenth or even caliber( Multi caliber lower).
Well, you could put "Multi caliber lower receiver only" on the form if you feel better by doing one. Jack.
 
The "home build" IE, AR15, is a new twist in the law that that I had never heard about before. Very interesting, I wonder if Mass has an official position on this.

But, I always read from the experts on this forum, that the intent of the law was to record transfers between parties and that this statute was not a firearm registration statute, so the requirement of reporting who the transferring party is, (for a home build there is no transferring party) I suppose, raises the question as to whether filing an FA-10 would be required ?

I see this confusion as a result of MA not using the same definitions as federal law: a firearm is a pistol (but only if it works), a rifle is a rifle (also, only if it works), and a receiver.....just doesn't exist, even though the feds say it does.

If I purchase a complete, functional rifle out of state, MA requires me to file an FA-10 when it enters MA. I don't fill out a seller, because they are not in MA, but I still have to file, I suppose because I am a resident who has acquired another rifle. In the same light, when I finish building on that receiver, I am again a resident who has acquired another rifle in MAs eyes, and need to enter an FA-10. If you ask the feds, I acquired that rifle when I picked it up at the FFL, but they're not interested in MA laws anyway.

That's my thought path, anyway. I hate to say it, but reading Federal Acquisition Regulations is easier than trying to stumble through Mass. law.
 
Why all the paperwork gymnastics, and what does it hurt to do one?

Two Points:

1- FA-10s are hard to come by, so why waste them?

2- The law CLEARLY does not require an FA-10 on something which is NOT a firearm.

-Mike
 
Why all the paperwork gymnastics, and what does it hurt to do one?

Two Points:

1- FA-10s are hard to come by, so why waste them?

2- The law CLEARLY does not require an FA-10 on something which is NOT a firearm.

-Mike
 
Two Points:

1- FA-10s are hard to come by, so why waste them?

2- The law CLEARLY does not require an FA-10 on something which is NOT a firearm.

A clear, correct and logical analysis.

Ergo, you are disqualified from ever being a dispatcher, LO, gun shop employee or range guru.
 
The FFL correctly did not FA-10 the lower, but then told me I never had to file one because it's a home build. [thinking] I don't know what the little voices told him, but my interpretation of MGL140-128b is that as soon as I have met the MGL140-121 definition of 'Rifle' with my build (“Rifle”, a weapon having a rifled bore with a barrel length equal to or greater than 16 inches and capable of discharging a shot or bullet for each pull of the trigger.), then I have "obtain(ed) a firearm, rifle or shotgun or machine gun from any source within or without the commonwealth", and need to follow the reporting requirements of MGL140-128b. It doesn't appear gray to me, but I would like to know where the theory that FA-10s aren't needed for home builds came from, just out of morbid curiousity. [hmmm]

You obviously have a greater grasp of logic than that FFL.

The "home build exemption" is a fabrication by those who don't know what "obtains" means - or pretend not to.
 
Back
Top Bottom