Appleseed Shoot

[Nickle]

For those of you interested, there will be an Appleseed Shoot, sometime in the future.

A couple of us are working out details, it will be in the Rutland, VT area somewhere.

I'll post more info as it's available.

Don't know what it is? Read Fred's M14 Stocks Column in Shotgun News, or check out RWVA.

http://www.rwva.org/yabbse/index.php

Mods, please Sticky this.

 

[crak]

Yay!

 

[Nickle]

I forgot to mention a couple of things.

It's a rifle shoot, primarily intended for Military type rifles. Most anything is welcome, including pre-teens shooting 22 LR's.

If you don't own an appropriate rifle, and still would like to attend, I will probably be able to LOAN you one.

 

[firtree]

Their shoots look like a lot of fun, and there is some interesting info
on their web sites, but when you read a little more, the
philosophy in the background gets a bit "Survivalist" for my taste.
I like what they are trying to do with educating riflemen, and was
pretty attracted to the idea, and I buy a whole lot of their history
and some of their politics, but when you start saying things like:

"If the Day comes on your watch, you want to show up ready to go. You’ll be eager to be effective in defending Lady Liberty, which means being effective on those targets downrange, which most likely will be UN blue. You know -- don’t you? -- that there are millions of committed liberals in this country who would answer the call of President Hillary and UN Secretary General Bubba, wave a little blue UN flag, and gladly unlock the gates to let the foreign villains in. Talk about crazy..."

it does nothing for our cause as gun owners and/or conservatives/liberitarians.

I was pretty bummed when I ran into this drivel, since I was impressed
with a lot of their program and the history lessons. Perhaps if they can keep
the shooting seperate from politics, their program will take off.
Hell, maybe I can make it to the match! I'm just learning how to
properly shoot my new M1A.

(cited from http://rwva.blogspot.com/2005/02/rifleman-series-part-three-learning-to.html)


F

 

[Admin]

i agree...

 

[Nickle]

Pay very close attention to what Fred says. He openly admits he goes overboard. He's not a nut, he's just trying to motivate people into getting out and shooting. Even he says to not take too seriously.

A LOT of M1 and M14/M1A owners are the keepers of "Safe Queens". My M14 was made somewhere around 1988 or so. I bought it, private sale, about 2001 or 2002. It had less than a couple boxes of ammo run through before I got it, and the TE was ZERO.

 

[PatMcD]

Are the tinfoil hats provided or do you need to bring your own?

 

[bpm990d]

+1 Bump on what Firtree said.

I own a lot of rifles and love to shoot, but the doomsayers/chicken littles always turn me off despite the fact that I truly believe that they are less harm than some radical professors.

I like military rifles and developing my skills but after I got out of the service I don’t ever think I’ll have to put my skills to use for anything except a common criminal. I’m gonna teach my kids to shoot and think it can be a valuable skill. They could get scholarships to a university to shoot competitively. They will have a sport that men and women can compete in equally their entire life, they wont be a slave to an irrational fear, or have to fear taking responsibility for their own safety. They will hopefully be good voters when it comes to the second amendment. But I don’t exactly think I’ll be saving America. I don’t think it really needs to be saved in the first place. The political trend in the US is towards more freedom, Just take a look at the CCW trend in the states. We told Kerry to take a hike didn’t we?

If he goes overboard just for the sake of motivating them, I have no use for him. I read through his whole RWVA.com several months ago it left a bad taste in my mouth. He wants to save America by recreating a nation of riflemen. Ah, yeah…. right….. How exactly does that compute? It’s like the gay parade. Does it really help their cause to have a bunch of naked flaming perverts prance around the city of Boston? Thanks for letting me and my family see your drooping naughty bits you old hag.

If he wants to improve our lot in life he should be focusing on citizenship, education and the personal responsibility of individual freedom. Instead he focuses on a wannabe recreations of the Korean war sniper school. I get the same feeling when I would read kook stuff from A.N.S.W.E.R or the Communists in the student center. Total kook.


Brian

 

[Nickle]

I'll agree that they tend to get overboard on some stuff. He's been that way for years.

But, Fred has long focused on working within the current system, and getting people to get off their dead butts and writing papers and politicians.

What is a Politician really afraid of? Not getting reelected. Make them fear you more than the Liberals. It's that simple.

Learning to shoot isn't such a bad idea, either. Some of you, like Derek, already know how. They can always use a few more folks to teach as well.

 

[Nickle]

So, crakowski, how was Langhorne?

I know you'll post some pics, right?

 

[Jose]

I've been invited to that circus before. I've passed every single time.

If someone wants to become a competent rifleman, all one has to do is start shooting in NRA Highpower matches with a service rifle. You can take it as easy or as far as you want in terms of high-speed low-drag stuff like coats, shooting glasses, tricked out gear carts, mats and the like.

If all you want to do is become a better marksman without spending a lot of money, show up with whatever battle rifle you have, a cheap, canvas M1 sling, a pair of binoculars, and a scrap of carpet to lie on if it's wet/muddy (or not), and shoot. You WILL become a truly capable rifleman, a master of the basics of riflecraft. Basics that can be applied to ANY shooting situation on a two-way rifle range. All while supporting the only organization, that while far from perfect, is feared by politicians. All that without Fred's tinfoil hattery.

 

[crak]

Feh. The NEShooters.com All Star High Power Rifle Team comes out of the woodwork to hate on Fred. What other thread can I just roll in and take a drive by shit on someone else's hard work while they're busting their ass trying to get an event going? You wouldn't even do that to a half assed pictureless overpriced classifieds listing, so why would you do it here?

Everybody goes out shooting for different reasons and under different contexts. Jose doesn't know it, but he planted the seed of getting started in High Power in my mind on another forum years ago. Derek gave me the final nudge a couple months ago and I had an awesome time. I thank you both. But frankly, if it weren't for Fred and some others you'd probably think are a bunch of kooks, you'd probably find me today more interested in owning safe queens than I'd be in shooting them well.

Fred is a man who is particularly impressed by the events of a single day in history, April 19, 1775, where right in our own backyards hundreds of Americans picked up their rifles, left their homes behind to burn, and shot British soldiers from Lexington and Concord all the way back to Boston. Paranoid kook fantasy? No, it happened right here and it didn't happen by accident. Those Minutemen were already prepared into 50 man companies and assembled from as far as Salem and Marblehead in an age without cell phones or internal combustion engines.

The theory behind Appleseeds is that if more Americans understand the sacrifices the very first Americans made and apply that context to the time at the range, we'll be far less likely to throw our own rights under the bus ever time some hack nanny politician suggests it's for our own good. Nothing imprints stronger on the mind than a new hands-on experience with a no-nonsense standard. And all you need is 25m, and a backstop.

The method
1. Learn your history
2. Learn your rifle
3. Learn to Show #1 and #2 to your neighbor.

Does it work? Of course it does, or we wouldn't be bending over backwards to get new shooters to come out to the range with us. I've seen them go from "Why do you need all those rifles" to "Which one should I get?" to "Which one should I get next?" You don't think that person sees right through the next 50BMG ban coming down the pike? You've probably all done the same, so what's so horrible about this one?

On a more fundamental note, we love what we're doing, think it's fun as hell, and want to share it with others. That's why Jose's all over the place promoting HP and Derek'll take the time to write me 25 emails in two days about Reading Rifle and shooting jackets. God bless both of you, but don't get so high on your horses that you have to look down on what Fred's doing with Appleseeds. How does promoting Appleseeds make me the equivalent of a guy wearing assless chaps waving a rainbow flag marching down main street? NRA High Power isn't the only place good things can happen.

The basics are the basics wherever you learn them. The guys who run appleseeds are mostly high power shooters too. They advocate it as the best place to go out and put your finer skills to the test under pressure, which of course, it is. He's sending you more shooters, we're all on the same team.

As Nickle mentioned, I just came back from a Two-Day Appleseed in PA. I brought three other newer shooters and most of their equipment with me and that was such a logistical circus I didn't have time to take any pictures. Two of them afterwards asked me separately if I'd help them make plans to set up an Appleseed at a range in New York. I'm proud to say those shooters were my Father and two younger brothers. Haven't been able to stop working since then long enough to write a review (spent it here defending the whole concept instead), but I'll post it here when I do.

Not one mention of the UN all weekend, btw, if that's the only thing anybody wants to know. But if you're too cool to listen to a couple minutes of Paul Revere and George Washington stories in the morning, stay away. I did get my first Rifleman score, (though only once) and had a hell of a good time, so they must be doing something right.

If you're into the UN thing, there was a UN Appreciation day at Fred's own range a couple months back. By far the funnest time I've had shooting so far. He's running one against the redcoats this week. Those are fun shoots, not Appleseeds, so if you want to start bitching about those, make sure you go after the Cowboy Action and IPSC shooters too, and all those Satan Worshipping clubs that were doing Easter Egg shoots last weekend.

Finally, here's an interview about the Appleseed shoots straight from the horse's mouth if anybody can get over themselves long enough to give it a listen:
http://www.jpfo.org/TTA20060330.mp3

 

[JonJ]

Damn, I thought I was reading a post by "Fred"! Very good, Crakowski! Here Here!

 

[Nickle]

Let me take the time to mention a few points.

I used to compete, Bench Rest. Heavy Varmint and Light Varmint, later, Hunter Class. Also competed Small Bore in NG Postal Matches.

Competing with a non-competitive rifle and incomplete equipment just flat out SUCKS, no matter what the discipline is. BTDT, hated it. Bought some better equipment. Found I couldn't afford Bench Rest finally. Too damned much money to invest in barrels and bullets and too damned much time to invest practicing to get to the top. $300 for a barrel gets expensive when you burn out 2 or 3 a year. Not to mention the time to fit and chamber them.

What Fred is doing is getting folks shooting. Some of you think the RWVA folks are "kooks". Well, RWVA hasn't been around all that long. Before that it was Riverside Gun Club, until a few folks ran it into the ground. RWVA arose from the ashes.

You see, I've been reading this stuff for more than a couple of years. Just had to buy a new "Guide" since my first one got lost, after getting worn and outdated.

Now, you start really reading what's been written, like in SGN in Fred's Columns and maybe you'll get it. Sure, he sounds like part "kook". I've known that for a while. But, he really isn't a "kook", just a gun owner with a mission. He's more like some of us than you may realize. I haven't met him, but we have spoken over the phone in the somewhat distant past.

That mission is to get people out there recruiting new shooters and changing their minds about the political issues ahead of us, like Keeping Our Rights.

Anyways, looks like we might just have access to a 600 yard range in VT. Aren't many of those in New England, and you're all welcome to join us. I intend on being there.

Crakowski and I will be there. Others from here will be there. Will you?

EDited to Add - If you don't have an appropriate rifle to use, I'll loan you one.

 

[firtree]

Transcript of the interview is here for those who don't want
to listen to the mp3:

http://www.jpfo.org/tta060330.htm

Nickle,
When and where are you planning on having the shoot?

F

 

[bpm990d]

Crakowski,

If you or anyone else took personal offence that I compared you to perverts then I apologize. That was not my intent. The point that I was trying to make was that I don’t believe that RWVA does anything substantial for the cause of the Second Amendment. If RWVA exclusively focused on history and shooting they would be a worthy organization in my estimation. As it stands the mix of politics and guns scares me off.

More to follow,

Brian

 

[Nickle]

Brian, both Crakowski and I post over at RWVA. I have the same User name as here.

I can tell you straight up that stuff that would be allowed to be posted here has gotten the poster in deep trouble when posted there.

They don't allow advocating violence towards the Gov't or Politicians.

They don't get into deep Politics, other than writing to them, and throwing out the bad ones, through not reelecting them.

What they do advocate, especially Fred, is writing your Rep's, locally and the ones in DC, as well as writing your local paper. They also advocate getting new shooters to the range and shooting.

Just so the High Power shooters understand my points posted previously, allow me to add that there's a few folks here that will probably never go to a High Power Shoot (not me, it's when I'll go, not if). They may be able to be convinced to attend an Appleseed Shoot. I'd wager some of them may do HP after that. Rifle competition can get really addictive. BTDT.

Now, when and where the VT Applseed is going to happen is still in the working phases. I'm thinking mid-August, but Range scheduling may change that. It will hopefully be either in Underhill (northeast of Burlington about 15 miles) or near Rutland.

I will post definite info well ahead of time.

 

[Nickle]

Here's the rules from the RWVA Forum. Doesn't sound much different than here.

Welcome!

The RWVA is open to law-abiding men and women from all backgrounds, races, creeds, and national origins who
- believe in the Declaration of Independence, the United States Constitution, and the Bill of Rights, as written; and
- who are willing to work to preserve and promote traditional rifle marksmanship, along with the heritage of our country's Revolutionary War forefathers.

For more information about the RWVA, go to http://rwva.blogspot.com/2005/06/who-is-rwva.html

In other words:

- Be polite
- Watch the language (we've got young folks as members, too!)
- SOMSOM - Stay on message (we need to make more Riflemen and Instructors across this great land), stay on mission (doing what we need to do to make more Riflemen and Instructors)
- Remember that this is a PUBLIC forum -- what you think and feel in your private world is up to you, but when you're here, your inflammatory language can hurt the Program
- If you wouldn't stand up and say something at a public meeting in your town, you'd best think twice about saying it here

The management reserves its right to do here exactly what any of us would do in our homes - including tossing any member or guest out on their ear if they are behaving as buffoons.

'Nuff said.

 

[PatMcD]

My biggest turn-off with Fred (that's the name of his dog, isn't it?), is the perceived "my way or the highway" attitude. I have noticed a recent trend for him to be more inclusive, but in years past, it wasn't so. If you weren't shooting an M14, you weren't much good to him. FAL's and SKS' were an acceptable substitute if you absolutely couldn't get your hands on a real rifle. Don't even mention the AR15. Highpower shooters aren't real riflemen because they used their coats as a crutch. And so on and so forth.

I mention again I had noticed a recent trend in his articles for him to be more accepting of all shooters, regardless of what they are shooting (I stopped reading them all the way through a few years ago when he was writing his fictional "shoot up the UN convoy" stories). But, if somebody can't make it to one of his Appleseed shoots because of family, work, or any other obligations, they are a worthless deadbeat (no matter that they might have a full schedule in other shooting sports with Highpower, IDPA, 3-gun, etc..).

I do respect him in that he puts his money where his is at. I don't imagine Shotgun News donates that 1/3-1/2 page space that he writes his articles in.

 

[Nickle]

Fred USED to be about exactly as you described, UNTIL he got his eyes opened. I don't think he ever thought HP shooters used their "coats as a crutch", since he has been selling cloth shooting jackets as long as I've been reading his columns (well over 5 years).

When he slams folks for not attending shoots, did you ever consider he wasn't slamming YOU? He respects HP shooters (he even used to shoot at Camp Perry), as well as most other Disciplines. But, he does go after people that own guns, even Battle Rifles (but never get out and shoot them), never vote or write their Rep's (but sure bitch about the laws) and don't respect the Constitution. He also is trying to motivate shooters to get other people shooting, like kids, the ladies and non-shooters.

He quit putting other guns than the M14 down YEARS ago. In fact, if you've ever read his "Guide", whether a current one, or an older one, you would have seen he actually speaks highly of certain non-M14 rifles, like the M1 Garand, SMLE, FAL, HK91/G3, Mauser, Springfield, 1917 Enfield and believe it or not the SKS.

He doesn't speak well of the AR. I don't speak overly well of them, either. I do own one, but, I've been using "AR's" for a living, since 1972. "AR's" back then had many problems, and jammed frequently. Part of the problem was the powder, much of it was the buffer.

Current problems are almost 100% crappy ammo or a GROSS lack of cleaning. I deliberately didn't clean mine for quite a while, just to see how long it would take to jam. It went somewhere's between 1000 to 2000 rounds, in about a year to 18 months. Of course, I wasn't using crappy ammo, either. Reman M855 Ball, an Reman M196 Tracer, made with USGI brass and proper powder.

What I will say, is the AR-A2's are decent guns. My civilian one isn't overly accurate (it does get the job done), but the one time I've done weapons qual with the M16A2, I shot a really good score, outside of operator error (Zero change, Supported vs Unsupported). All of that being said about the AR, some folks love them. I'll support that. Don't think I don't shoot mine, either. I'm currently working on a batch of ammo for mine, about 1000 rounds. That MIGHT last this year.

Now, I know a bunch of guys that will NOT attend HP shoots. They might be able to be talked into attending an Appleseed Shoot. Maybe they'll catch the bug from there. Also, remember that HP rules limit what guns you can use. Some folks don't own those guns. BUT, they might buy one they can use, if they see just how much fun shooting can be.

 

[Nickle]

Now, to throw down the challenge.

If a few of you HP guys here will attend the VT Appleseed shoot, I'll attend and compete in a local HP match (in your area). All I ask is for it to be a reasonable distance. Consider a one day's drive (about 8 hours or less) as reasonable.

Just don't laugh at the "antique" I may be shooting. My AR is NOT Mass legal, or competitive, so I'll be using my M14 or M1. Neither is a Springfield or Springfield Armory (early Fed Ord M14 and Winchester M1). They both shoot fairly well, and have really good issue barrels.

 

[PatMcD]

I actually am planning on shooting in Vermont over the Memorial Day weekend up at Camp Ethan Allen for the VT Highpower Championship, VT LR Championship, and a few other Matches.

Just a side note about M14's and AR's; over thousands of rounds downrange with both, I have had exactly two failures to fire with the M14. Both were when my extractor spit out which put me totally out of commission. My AR has NEVER failed to fire, and I am about the worst there is when it comes to cleaning/maintenance. I did absolutely nothing to my match AR for the entire season last year; nothing down the bore, no lube, nothing.
Which is the better rifle? It's like asking what's the better dog; Lab or Beagle? If you got bit by a Beagle as a kid, then all Beagles bite.


In reading that last part over, I'm not sure it makes any sense.

 

[bpm990d]

It seems I have inadvertently contributed to a miniature shit storm on New England Shooters. :-\ If anyone feels personally insulted, I apologize.

I have no problem with people encouraging others to go out and enjoy themselves in a safe way with firearms. I’m not a competitive shooting snob. I haven’t shot in years. There are lots of venues that can be safe and enjoyable and I would love to participate in a Knob Creek event or the boomershoots in Wyoming. I know the history well and have spent many a Patriots day in Lexington at the common.

I don’t have any beef with people taking practical training in the use of firearms (LFI, Gunsite, Blackwater or other such professional person or organization). In fact I’m a big proponent of it.

As for my drive by crap on Fred and RWVA, I think he and the organization is well intentioned, but misdirected and dishonest. I do not think that they add substantially to the preservation of the Second Amendment; and in some cases they may hinder it. With that being said, I don’t think a high power rifle match or blasting at a TV in a sandpit contributes substantially to preserving the 2A. It doesn’t follow that the exercising of rights; substantially contributes to preserving those rights. My belief is that most of the participants in an RWVA event are already solidly in the 2A camp. Energizing them and getting them out to shoot may be great fun, help them develop some marksmanship skills, and give them a feeling that they are preserving America’s rifleman heritage, but I don’t think it does much of anything for the 2A.

It stands to reason however that someone on the fence about the 2A, but still open minded would likely be turned off by their rhetoric. Having come from a non gun owning family it’s unlikely that my mother would have been all that thrilled will me going to a RWVA event. All she would have needed to do is read information about being prepared for blue helmeted targets of opportunity or ambushing a UN convoy.

I feel that RWVA has a whole lot of things mixed up in one disorganized mess. It’s all real folksy and grass-roots and I’m sure that appeals to some, but it is also a ham fisted execution that doesn’t jive with their stated goals. First and foremost Fred is in the business of selling stuff. He has the worlds largest pile of web slings he has to get rid of doesn’t he? Where can you get targets for his AQT? From Fred of course! It also has an unhealthy dose of paranoia thrown in for free. NRA high power has its share of black helicopter kooks, but their version of reality is only cultivated by other like minded participants and not by the organization. Although Wayne’s Jack booted thugs speech didn’t help.

Lastly I feel they sell a false sense of preparedness and accomplishment with their AQT. Martial use of firearms requires a whole lot more than just marksmanship instruction. The information on the website is pretty vague and doesn’t seem to inform people of the delineation. Anyone that has taken any course from a professional instructor will know that, but most have not had the opportunity or inclination to fork over the money required; and will develop a wholly unrealistic sense of their skills. Just remember that Private Jessica Lynch and the rest of her company had lots of marksmanship and firearms instruction courtesy of the U.S. Army. With the exception of a few soldiers, they proved themselves to be utterly incapable of effectively employing their weapons or even cleaning them. I have no idea what is covered in the RWVA instruction on the range except what is listed on their website. A novice would gain a better set of martial skills from someone like Pat Rodgers or Gunsite.

As for the marksmanship instruction, from what I have read I think its fine. There are no real secrets to the fundamentals. However the development of marksmanship skills will advance much faster and the shooter will gain a greater competency and confidence with an accurate rifle and match grade ammunition; and the accoutrements associated with competitive shooting. If their goal is the development of marksmanship skills; they should ditch the rack grade rifles, ball ammo and silly notions about real rifles.


Brian

 

[bpm990d]

Crakowski,
I’m glad you had a good time at the event and developed some of your marksmanship skills. I guess my question would be, do you ascribe any political significance to that, or feel that it helped the 2A?

I don’t know if I’m going to do any shooting this year, but you might run into me at Reading if I do. Please come over and introduce yourself and say hi or call me an a**h***. I’m also not to full of myself to think that much of anything of real significance happens at a rifle match. It's just marksmanship.

Brian

 

[bpm990d]

Nickle,

I appreciate the offer to come to the Appleseed event in Vermont. Ethan Allen range is beautiful place to shoot. I get my fill of black helicopters at most high power matches I go to. Thanks for the offer though. If you organize an explosive shoot let me know. I’ll be there.

As an aside, I do understand that not having the right equipment can be a barrier to participating. My guess is that your AR-15A2 is competitive if you shoot a sierra or hornady match grade bullet out of the barrel. They will shoot well into the master or in some cases high master class even without a free floated handguard and a factory trigger. I had a buddy shoot a 196 or 197 at 600yds with a stock colt HBAR with hand loads.

No matter where you shoot it, have fun.

Brian

 

[Jose]

remember that HP rules limit what guns you can use.

Rule 3.3 NRA Match Rifle-A center fire rifle with metallic sights and a
magazine capable of holding not less than 5 rounds.

That's limiting?

 

[crak]

Brian, Pat,

Thanks for writing again and giving me an opportunity to hash out some of the concerns. First thing's first, I have zero hard feelings about anything anyone said. We're all stand up guys, and we're all on the same team here. Thanks It would never even cross my mind to walk up to anybody at any kind of shoot and start off with a grudge, and from what I've seen, the same is true of everybody else here.

I understand what you're saying about marksmanship being "just" marksmanship and not much more in terms of the Second Amendment, but I'll have to disagree. In fact, that's our most fundamental disagreement, and the rest is going to be just details. Going out and shooting well doesn't just help or exercise the 2nd amendment, it is the 2nd amendment. I firmly believe that if people do not exercise their rights, they will be lost, never to return.

As people moved from country into city, and stopped seeing rifles as everyday tools of practical use (never mind liberty's teeth) they had no personal interest in keeping these dangerous things around. For whatever reason (depending on how kooky we want to get) there are people actively trying to remove our ability to lawfully posess them. When enough people lose personal stakes in the fate of firearms ("Why do you need that?"), and their only exposure is through stories of thugs and gangsters, you will see them outlawed as thug's tools. Many already are in this state. Even on smaller issues than outright bans, if someone hasn't shot enough rounds through the barrel of an AK47 to want to replace it, why would they care that the ATF tried to stop parts imports for foreign firearms? Intellectually a person might disagree with it, but without a personal stake in it, who would spend their time fighting some obscure ATF technicality. Who else but a shooter?

Let's operate under the assumption for a moment that it is possible to affect the outcome of political matters through contact with elected officials. Getting personal here, I probably feel just as strongly about abortion as a political issue as I do the 2A but I have shamefully never done anything about it. Why is it different with the 2A? Because I'm doing the 2A all the time. I did the 2A all weekend shooting. It was at the center of my brain. And when I came back home and saw there was an opportunity to affect some 2A politics (H.4552) it came naturally to call the senators involved (one for the 3rd time). If I was playing some online video game instead last weekend, I might've spent that part of this week writing the developers about some bug or feature request.

So yeah, I can be in the 2A camp, but unless I'm out there actually doing it in my free time, there's not much natural tendancy to dig deep and get out on the front lines of every little politcal battle when they come up. Camp's a pretty good word to use for it actually. Most people don't do much good sitting in a camp compared to those who are out there doing something to build the camp, recruit more people to the camp, and teach the newer guys how to do the same the next day. If we don't pass down this camp's traditions and heritage, the camp is as good as dead. If you need proof, look to the Native American tribes still fighting that fight for their own camps. How many haven't made it?

It's so fundamental a belief of mine that I feel silly explaining it. You are what you do. You keep alive what you pass on.

So to answer your direct question, yes. If you are judging the Appleseed from beginning to end only by its political significance, it works.

Now on to the details:

Yes, Fred runs a business, and I hope before I die I'm running some kind of business that's right in line with my passions too. From what I observe, I don't think he's exactly making a killing selling the $3 web slings. He does not recommend the expensive wooden stocks to shooters, and suggests getting a used synthetic ($35) and spray painting it. The description in his catalog for the targets makes it clear that it's fine by him to photocopy them for yourself. All of the information contained in Fred's Rifleman's guide is available for free on the RWVA blog, including instructions to just make your own little 1" square targets with a black sharpee. I would think that if the RWVA was nothing more than a cheap money making scheme, the cost would be more than $45 per day ($70 for two) for an Appleseed. If you want to see a money making scheme, there's a place out in the Nevada desert that's pretty impressive in that sense (and I mean that sincerely... I am impressed by that kind of thinking). On top of it all, the man came all the way to Pennsylvania and ate nothing but cheese sandwiches. Not cheesesteak sandwiches. Cheese sandwiches. Not exactly the behavior of a guy who's got offshore bank accounts teeming with hoodwinked appleseed victim cashola.

About the rack grade rifles, the way I see it is that for most people, their rifle shoots much better than they do. I believe the message there is "Don't worry about your equipment. That's not the weak link in the chain yet." When I have wandering groups because my positions aren't consistent from target to target, that's my fault (not the rifle's) whether I'm shooting a 10/22 or a Super Match M1A. Same if I forget to pause my breathing and I string the rounds vertically. Unless I have an absolute dog of a rifle, I should be able to accomplish 4MOA if I straighten myself out.

Another side of the equipment issue is that I brought 3 other people besides myself to Langhorne and furnished most of their equipment myself. It was hard enough getting everybody surplus ammo, el cheapo OD cloth jackets (for the elbow and shoulder pads), and some GI sleeping pads for mats just to make sure they got through the weekend and didn't end up hating shooting because all their joints hurt. Could you imagine the expense involved in outfitting that team with all the competition accoutrements? Would they even have gotten the benefit out of them on day one? No, they were still trying to learning stuff like making the rifles safe and adjusting the sights. The discomfort (never mind cost) of a for-real jacket while learning those basics would have outweighed the benefit of tighter groups by far. Certain things like equipment can be barriers to entry, and we want to remove any hint of that for Appleseeds.

You are correct that no one will come away from an Appleseed having done battle drills on how to actually ambush that UN Convoy everybody seems to be so concerned about. You will not come away prepared to go to war. Part of the point of the Revolutionary War history lessons is exactly that... Fight the soft war (calling politicians, writing letters, joining NRA, GOA, JPFO, state orgs) because you do not want anything to do with being in a real one. This is basic marksmanship instruction with a dash of history thrown in for context -- turning cooks into expert class rifle shooters. There is also a lesson on clearning/maintaining the rifle. I don't know how it can be anything else in two days and still get that much shooting done. It's not LFI or a self defense class and doesn't claim to be, nor is it soup to nuts militia training (oh boy, I could hear you guys howling all the way from here if it were).

Ok, that was a mouthful. All this talking and I bet Nickle still holds it on the same day I'm getting married and I end up not even being able to show up to meet all you guys. You are coming, right?

 

[Nickle]

Lots of healthy discussion going on here, and very little if any true bashing. There's a bunch of misconceptions, though, but that's no problem, since everybod's mind seems open enough.

All the Sierra bullets in the world won't help my AR clone. I figured folks would know better than to suggest changing ammo choices, seeing my Membership Status and Business URL. The problem with it is the barrel is a POS, and not a priority for me to change it. It's safe and serviceable, and about as accurate as a Rack Grade (issue) 1911A1. Not accurate enough.

I'm well aware of the rules, and know them far better than most non-HP shooters. I'm not about to shoot a non-competitive gun, when I have 2 rifles that are eleigible as Service Rifles, and fairly competitive. Why is it folks don't think an M1 or M14 is competitive. Ironically, I shoot better with the M1 and M14 than an AR or M16, even an M16A2 Colt.

Equipment NEEDED versus Equipment NICE TO HAVE for HP Competition is another misconception, yes. But, telling me about it is "Preaching to the Choir". And it's hard to reach the general public to change their minds. They think you need a Springfield Armory Super Match M1A or a Bushmaster DCM Rifle, because those companies lead them to believe it. Also, most think an M1 costs just under $1000, because they see them all at gun shows for $900 and up. If I had a $1 Bill for every shooter that I've enlightened about CMP and the true cost of an M1, I'd be a Rich Man.

Now, about Fred and RWVA. As I said, I've been reading his stuff for years. He preaches getting NEW SHOOTERS involved, people that have NEVER shot before. That's some the HP and BR shooters don't usually do.

I only know of only 2 groups that do that, both are considered non-PC, and your precious NRA threw both groups "over the bridge" so to say, years ago. That's the Battle Rifle shooters (for enjoyment, different than Service Rifle) and the Machine Gun folks. The NRA has since changed their ways, and Wayne Lapierre's "Jack Booted Thugs" speech was largely due to the FLAK the NRA caught for not supporting the 2A in the late 80's, early 90's. I wouldn't join then, I have since, due to them cleaning up their act.

I'd wager if I put out a Blue Helmet to shoot at, when at an Appleseed Shoot, I'd get a ration of shit for it by the folks putting the shoot on. I can tell you what the reaction is here, but check it out for yourself. I guess some of those Northeastshooter folks are "real kooks" and "radicals hurting the 2A" then. And those folks aren't just me, but include a few mods here.

 

[Nickle]

Crak, I have no clue as to the exact dates, but refresh my memory as to when to NOT have it. We'll do what we can.

To everybody, my challenge still stands, and will stand. If you really know me, you'll know that I don't make that challenge lightly, and have every intention of seeing it through. If you're coming to the GMNF Campout, there'll be 25 Meter targets there as well.

Whoever made the comment about Jessica Lynch's unit, don't make me laugh. That whole incident was caused by the worst Map Reading I've ever seen by an Army unit. If their Map Reading was so poor, their Marksmanship couldn't be much better.

Army Marksmanship, yeah, that USED to be an Oxymoron (they have made changes recently). Ask Me How I Know. Hope you've got plenty of time, I've got 34 years of experience in seeing that it truly is an Oxymoron.

 

[bpm990d]

Nickle,

Concerning my suggestion that you try match grade ammunition, I guess my supposition was that the rifle was rack grade, but without a crapped out barrel. Stock rifles that are relatively new or un-abused should shoot very well. Of course it if has been shot our or abused (from the perspective of a competitor) It probably wouldn’t make a difference substituting match projectiles. Most rack grade AR type rifles will shoot very well with good ammo. Match triggers, sights, barrels or free floated hand guards shouldn’t be required to be fairly competitive into the master class. They are nice, but not necessary to be solidly into the middle third of most competitors.

As far as the M1 or M-14 being competitive; yes they are competitive. They are as much as the AR type rifles. However with that being said, the difference has more to do with economics and physics than accuracy. They will never be as economical to shoot or maintain as an AR. The things need constant attention to maintain their accuracy; and even then they will never hold their zeros as well as an AR. Also the number one reason is that the things are a bitch to shoot. I shot one very well for a couple of years, but it took such a long time to get there, and I had team mates that never mastered shooting the damn things well for 50 or 100 shots in a match. I came from a smallbore rifle background; pulling the trigger on a rifle launching 168 – 190gr bullets is not conducive to learning or executing the fundamentals to an extremely high level. When I was shooting in the service with an M-14NM, I felt beat up at the end of the day. In my opinion, shooting one of those things is like getting kicked in the teeth all day long. I would guess (and I may be wrong) that the people that mastered shooting those .30 cal rifles came from a strong smallbore background. It’s just damn difficult to master the fundamentals with one of those things. Even if you master the fundamentals in smallbore, you still have to learn to get the thing to fire without significant movement on your part. It’s a lot easier said than done and I have seen lots and lots of good shooters that never mastered it. I remember when I was shooting that it was fairly uncommon to see service rifle shooter up above 490 level at most local matches. The mass of good active shooters were around the 470s-480s. While I have not shot a lot in the last 8 or so years, I have tried to keep track of the scores, and I think there is a pretty strong upward trend that I believe correlates with people ditching the .30 cal rifles and going to the ARs. If the thing fits reasonably well and you can see the sights on the AR, it’s easier to shoot well and it recoils a lot less than the big .30s.

Just for some perspective –

I had a friend that I took to a highpower clinic several years ago. He had spent some time in the USMC and was familiar with the AR-15A2 rifles we were shooting. Despite the fact that the rifle was about 12-15 pounds and much heavier that a rack grade rifle, and I insisted he use the shooting coat, he still said he felt beat up after only 50 shots. I could only imagine what he would have said if I made him shoot a Garand.

- On to other topics,

I know how you feel about the NRA. I know that they threw the class three shooters under the bus several years ago. They are far from perfect, but to their credit, when Clinton was pushing the AWB, they rejected a compromise exempting the AR M1 & M14 from the silly flash hider, separate pistol grip, bayonet lug foolishness that the dopes were pushing for in congress. However with that one example of courage, they still have not allowed non police to shoot the PPC competition at silhouette targets. It's still rigidly police only as far as I know. However Bianchi Tombstones are ok. Go figure.

I don’t know about the battle rifle shooters thing, but would like to hear more.

My guess is that the NRA’s position is mostly a reflection of the Executive Vice President and the BoD. It just happened that the combination was a bunch of spineless scum when that issue cropped up.

- More to follow.


Brian