Anyone go to the Bruce Gray Sig classes this week?

[Lugnut]

I just went to today's class but there is another this weekend. For those that don't know Bruce- he seems to be a nationally regarded trainer. Awesome guy and I learned a lot about practical hand gun skills. There were about 18 people from the New England states.. one guy actually came from Austria!

 

[matt]

Can you give us a reivew of the class?

 

[Lugnut]

Can you give us a reivew of the class?

I'll try. Bruce's philosphy is somewhat new to me in that he strongly believes that proper trigger control/use is paramount to proper use of Sig hand guns (others as well). Not that other classes ignore this.. he just does a damn good job in this aspect.

In many of the drills we did, he emphasized the need to set up the trigger. Example- some have an issue with DA/SA handguns.... but he thinks with proper training the DA/SA is VERY easy to use. When drawing from the holster and bringing the gun to meet your nondominant hand (ready position) it's then that you start "preloading" the trigger, i.e. by the time your move your hand gun to the extended position the trigger should be just about ready to drop the hammer. Emphasis was to recognize how much preload you can use. Funny thing is some think that trigger reset is long with Sigs but it really isn't. The first DA motion is long but he explained how to properly use it!

When the first round is fired, he stressed the need to quickly release the trigger just far enough for the trigger to reset then quickly take up the "slack" and preload the trigger. All off the trigger exercises stressed the need for quick reset and preload so that the sights will remain quite stable when the hammer actually drops. Drills proved just how much this helps... it is very difficult however to not simply "slap" the trigger in some drills instead of properly setting up the trigger.

There was much, much more but Bruce strongly believes that properly managing your trigger will help you to shoot much better. Sight alignment is emphasized as well... but will not help improve your accuracy without this. He is also big on visualization... knowing and visualinzing what you are going to do before you do it. Lots of dry fire too.

So many good things and I hope I did a fair job expaining just some of the key points. Bruce is a top notch guy and I know why some think so highly of him now.

I hope this helps... I'd recommend this class if you get the chance.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Bruce Gray

Bruce built his original reputation as a Grand Master USPSA/IPSC shooter and professional gunsmith ("Gray Guns" ), formerly from Pennsylvania and now living in California. He's build some pretty wild guns, and is one of these people who makes major firearms components by taking a block of steel and removing everything that does not look like the part he is interested in. In addition to the gunsmith's mainstay of 1911 build-ups, I believe he did a lot of work with HKs before becoming associated with Sig.

Bruce is one of those of people who has built up his original credibility as a top not competive USPSA/ISPC shooter, but who has (to the best of my knowledge) never done any public sector merc work (ie, no police military exerience). He has, however, done courtroom work as an expert wittness on firearms technology.

I've known Bruce for many years, and I wish I knew he was going to be in town so I could have planned my schedule so I could meet up with him. If anyone on this list goes this weekend, please send him my regards.

 

[Lugnut]

Bruce built his original reputation as a Grand Master USPSA/IPSC shooter and professional gunsmith ("Gray Guns" ), formerly from Pennsylvania and now living in California. He's build some pretty wild guns, and is one of these people who makes major firearms components by taking a block of steel and removing everything that does not look like the part he is interested in. In addition to the gunsmith's mainstay of 1911 build-ups, I believe he did a lot of work with HKs before becoming associated with Sig.

Bruce is one of those of people who has built up his original credibility as a top not competive USPSA/ISPC shooter, but who has (to the best of my knowledge) never done any public sector merc work (ie, no police military exerience). He has, however, done courtroom work as an expert wittness on firearms technology.

I've known Bruce for many years, and I wish I knew he was going to be in town so I could have planned my schedule so I could meet up with him. If anyone on this list goes this weekend, please send him my regards.

Rob- fyi I think he will be doing other classes with Sig in the future. I thought I heard someone say Nov?

 

[matt]

I'll try.

You did alright!

Jim Conway covered this in his defensive pistol class also, though without so much emphasis. I know what you mean about trigger slap. Reset was one of the major skills I found out I needed to work on.

I like my Sig's trigger, but working the DA trigger does require practice.

I was intending on doing lots of DA/SA work this weekend, before I crushed my trigger finger...

Matt

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

I'll try. Bruce's philosphy is somewhat new to me in that he strongly believes that proper trigger control/use is paramount to proper use of Sig hand guns (others as well). Not that other classes ignore this.. he just does a damn good job in this aspect.

In many of the drills we did, he emphasized the need to set up the trigger. Example- some have an issue with DA/SA handguns.... but he thinks with proper training the DA/SA is VERY easy to use. When drawing from the holster and bringing the gun to meet your nondominant hand (ready position) it's then that you start "preloading" the trigger, i.e. by the time your move your hand gun to the extended position the trigger should be just about ready to drop the hammer. Emphasis was to recognize how much preload you can use.

Yeek!

30 Mar 04

Fingers on Triggers:

We just completed an Advanced Defensive Handgun Course in California.

Most of our students were active IDPA competitors. Most used 1911s, and all were proficient shooters. However, nearly all had the disturbing habit of making full contact with the trigger, automatically, at the end of each draw.

Our standard trigger rule is: Trigger finger is to remain in the register position (master grip) until two conditions are met simultaneously:

(1) Sights are on target, and
(2) you have made the decision to fire.

Several students indicated that they were trained that the decision to fire was always made while the pistol was still in the holster. Then, drawing and firing would be one motion and one thought.

I hope I was successful in convincing them otherwise. What statistics we have indicate that the pistol is drawn thirty times for every one time it is actually fired. If that is the case, training oneself to automatically shoot, every time the pistol is drawn, sets one up for catastrophe. Sometimes, it is indeed necessary to draw and fire in one motion. The vast majority of times that is not the case, at least in domestic defensive situations.

When the pistol is drawn, you may shoot, and you may not. The decision is largely out of your hands and will be ultimately dictated by the suspect's behavior. As competent gunmen, we must be fully prepared to go either way!

/John

And from another of his posts:

10 Aug 04

Serious vs competition shooting, view from another of my instructors:

"I concur with your assessment of competition shooters and the painful frustration of trying to train them to become competent gunmen. It is a matter/antimatter mixture. They are mostly incompatible.

You are not going to be shooting someone every time you draw your gun. We thus keep the trigger finger in register during the draw until sights are on target and we have made the decision to shoot, and we draw from concealment . Trigger fingers prematurely placed on triggers, in order to get a 'fast shot,' are an invitation to a ND and a constitute bad habit, yet competitive shooters do it all the time, because they carry pistols in plain view and shoot every time they draw. Pistols used are typically temperamental monstrosities with no practical use outside competition.

'Prepping of the trigger,' as taught in some venues, is a virtual guarantee of a ND. It is one of the most difficult habits we have to break.

Any time that you place an automatic 'faster is better' imperative into 'tactical' exercises, you customarily defeat the premise the exercise is designed to point out to you.

Anyone employing sound tactics and gun handling skills is thus assured of not 'winning' any of the vast majority of shooting competitions as the are currently practiced."

 

[Rob Boudrie]

John Farnam is a highly respected instructor, however, he seems to have this thing about competition shooters. Another competition shooter and I took a course from him many years ago, and he went out of his way to denegrate those who shoot matches.

The funny thing is that John had this shooting drill he told the class that everyone should be able to complete if they were to consider themselves competent - and which he administered several times during class. There were only 3 competition shooters taking this course. There were also only 3 students in the class who could do his drill, according to the specifications and procedures he set forth, every time "on demand." Care to guess which ones they were

This Sevigny character I know might take exception to the thought that his Glock is a tempermental monstrosity. Ditto for Bruce Gray and his Sig, Dave Olhasso and his Beretta or Todd Jarrett and his Para LDA.

One must wonder, however, why agencies such as the US Military and federal LEO agencies have been regularly hiring he services of people such as Voigt, Garcia, Jarrett, Barnhart, etc. to teach the finer points of guncraft.

 

[Lugnut]

Otimistic. First I want to make sure you understand exactly what I said regarding setting the trigger after the draw. I mentioned that the finger does NOT touch the trigger until in the ready position- this is NOT when drawing from the holster- but after your nondominant hand has gripped the gun near your chest area AND the muzzle is ON TARGET. It meets the requirements quoted below for us.

"Our standard trigger rule is: Trigger finger is to remain in the register position (master grip) until two conditions are met simultaneously:

(1) Sights are on target, and
(2) you have made the decision to fire."

For every drill we had we KNEW we were firing. Now should this be applied to a street self defense situation? Maybe, maybe not.. but Bruce was clear to emphasize that this class was to help build skills that could be applied the IPSC and IDPA. Bruce didn't feel that the techniques taught would interfere with tactical SD situations however. And I don't think they do. Certainly if I draw my firearm and INTEND to shoot these techiques would help.... I think Farnam has some good points to consider for sure. I wish I had asked him to articulate his view of this in class.

 

[matt]

Otimistic. First I want to make sure you understand exactly what I said regarding setting the trigger after the draw. I mentioned that the finger does NOT touch the trigger until in the ready position- this is NOT when drawing from the holster- but after your nondominant hand has gripped the gun near your chest area AND the muzzle is ON TARGET. It meets the requirements quoted below for us.

"Our standard trigger rule is: Trigger finger is to remain in the register position (master grip) until two conditions are met simultaneously:

(1) Sights are on target, and
(2) you have made the decision to fire."

For every drill we had we KNEW we were firing. Now should this be applied to a street self defense situation? Maybe, maybe not.. but Bruce was clear to emphasize that this class was to help build skills that could be applied the IPSC and IDPA. Bruce didn't feel that the techniques taught would interfere with tactical SD situations however. And I don't think they do. Certainly if I draw my firearm and INTEND to shoot these techiques would help.... I think Farnam has some good points to consider for sure. I wish I had asked him to articulate his view of this in class.

Jim Conway taught nearly the same thing. IIRC (Telemark or Ken, help me out), you were to take up the slack in the trigger (not actually moving the hammer) during the extension just after the support hand comes up.

All of the work we did was at 3-5 yds, so you were on target at that distance even without seeing the sights.

He would occasionally tap you on the shoulder to indicate you should take a head shot. Adding "cease fire!" to the drawing drill would have been interesting. I wonder how many of us would have been able to stop?

Matt

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

John Farnam is a highly respected instructor, however, he seems to have this thing about competition shooters. Another competition shooter and I took a course from him many years ago, and he went out of his way to denegrate those who shoot matches.

John certainly has strong feelings on the subject. But its not just a peculiar obsession on his part. Louis Awerback has no use for competition either, and I've heard Chuck Taylor declare that competition ingrains bad habits and should be avoided at all costs!

The funny thing is that John had this shooting drill he told the class that everyone should be able to complete if they were to consider themselves competent - and which he administered several times during class. There were only 3 competition shooters taking this course. There were also only 3 students in the class who could do his drill, according to the specifications and procedures he set forth, every time "on demand." Care to guess which ones they were

There's no doubt that the thousands and thousands of practice repetitions needed to become good at competition can lock very good gun handling skills into your muscle memory.

However, such skills are merely a SUBSET of the skills a defensive shooter should have in his "tactical toolbox".

An analogy. It's as if a weightlifter only used lifts that built up his arm muscles, and ignored his chest and back muscles.

This Sevigny character I know might take exception to the thought that his Glock is a tempermental monstrosity. Ditto for Bruce Gray and his Sig, Dave Olhasso and his Beretta or Todd Jarrett and his Para LDA.

I'm sure that there are exceptions to every rule.

One must wonder, however, why agencies such as the US Military and federal LEO agencies have been regularly hiring he services of people such as Voigt, Garcia, Jarrett, Barnhart, etc. to teach the finer points of guncraft.

The unspoken assumption on your part is that the bureacrats responsible for authorizing such training are actually competent to differentiate between a good trainer and a bad trainer.

Well, as my brother likes to say, "It's a free country, you can assume anything you like!"

To be fair, the level of basic training at many of these agencies is such that I'm sure these people learned a LOT from the competitors.

That doesn't, however, logically demonstrate that the competitors are the BEST people to train these agencies' people.

Regards
John

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Training, etc.

Ok, so all else being equal - do you want the cop who has use his gun to resolve a crisis on behalf of one of your family members to be the one who always shoots a qualifying score but rarely shoots outside that context, or one who also happens to be a very highly rated IPSC or IDPA shooter? Assume that both get the same amount of on-the-job training.

The question is this: Does the benefit of being a more skilled shooter outweigh the contamination of competition?

It would be interesting to see some of these world class trainers go up against the Jarretts/Voigts/Barnharts/Sevigny's in any objectively measurable test of gun handling skills.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

Optimistic. First I want to make sure you understand exactly what I said regarding setting the trigger after the draw. I mentioned that the finger does NOT touch the trigger until in the ready position- this is NOT when drawing from the holster- but after your nondominant hand has gripped the gun near your chest area AND the muzzle is ON TARGET. It meets the requirements quoted below for us.

"Our standard trigger rule is: Trigger finger is to remain in the register position (master grip) until two conditions are met simultaneously:

(1) Sights are on target, and
(2) you have made the decision to fire."

Let me quote another of John's posts that clarifies this better:

26 Dec 01

The issue of trigger finger placement cannot be visited too often. Fingers on triggers at inappropriate times is still the leading cause of ADs. It is amazing to me that there are instructors who still want fingers on triggers while the shooter does not want to shoot.

This is from my friend and colleague, Manny Kapelsohn, in response to this very issue:

"The first place I heard the 'on target, on trigger, off target, off trigger' rule was when I taught at Gunsite under Jeff Cooper. The thing most current proponents of that phrasing don't understand is that, by then-existing Gunsite doctrine, one never came 'on target' until the decision to fire was made -- until then, the pistol was kept in a 45-degrees downward 'ready' position.

Cooper actually felt this 'ready' position could be more intimidating to an opponent than having the pistol pointed directly at him -- as well as having other tactical advantages (unobstructed field of vision for situational control, etc). In any event, the rule as used at the old ('orange') Gunsite had exactly the same effect as training shooters to stay out of the trigger guard until one is on target and the decision to fire is made - because one never came on target until the decision to fire was made.

I have worked in at least two cases - one just now concluded - in which 'on target, on trigger' has resulted in unintentional deaths. It is far too ambiguous (especially when not tied to the rest of the Gunsite training regimen - as it rarely ever is), and allows officers and others permission to put their fingers on the trigger whenever they are covering a suspect with muzzle pointed at any part of the suspect's body, even though they have NOT decided to fire and DO NOT YET WANT to fire. It simply isn't a good rule, in my view. With very few imaginable exceptions, I strongly prefer, 'Keep your finger outside the trigger guard until you are on target and have decided to fire.'

My response:

"Manny is absolutely correct! Our biggest problem with guns in law enforcement is AD's, not missing bad guys, although both are significant issues.

'Finger in register until sights are on target and the decision to fire has been made,' is the only appropriate way to teach trigger management, in my opinion. Pointing guns at people with one's finger inside the trigger guard, in the absence of any definitive decision-making process with regard whether or not shooting is appropriate at that particular moment, in a veritable invitation to disaster. As Manny pointed out, such disasters happen all the time. With correct policy, reflected in correct training, the vast majority of them are preventable.

For every drill we had we KNEW we were firing. Now should this be applied to a street self defense situation? Maybe, maybe not.. but Bruce was clear to emphasize that this class was to help build skills that could be applied the IPSC and IDPA.

It wasn't clear from your original post that this was an IPSC/IDPA training course aimed specifically at such competitors.

Bruce didn't feel that the techniques taught would interfere with tactical SD situations however.

I'm sure he honestly believes that. However, Messers Farnam and Taylor would beg leave to disagree with him.

In any event, I'm glad you had a good time there, and hope our subsequent discussion has given you a few things to think about.

Regards
John

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

Ok, so all else being equal - do you want the cop who has use his gun to resolve a crisis on behalf of one of your family members to be the one who always shoots a qualifying score but rarely shoots outside that context, or one who also happens to be a very highly rated IPSC or IDPA shooter? Assume that both get the same amount of on-the-job training.

If I was limited to YOUR two choices, I would certainly want the competitor over the average cop who considers the annual departmental qualification shoot to be a PITA he has to put up with.

But why does it have to be a choice between these two examples?

Can we add a third cop, one who doesn't compete in games, but does, on his own dime, train with people like Awerback and Taylor and religiously practice what he learns from them?

If you had THOSE three to choose from, which would YOU choose?

The question is this: Does the benefit of being a more skilled shooter outweigh the contamination of competition?

Well, people like Farnam and Taylor, who have tried to TRAIN competetive shooters, seem unanimous in their opinion that the incessant need to beat the clock has given competetive shooters a number of bad habits that they then have to try to train out of them.

For example:

26 June 04

"Competitive" shooting, from a friend and trainer in South Africa:

"One of my students (first time with me on the range) is an accomplished 'competitive' shooter.

Today's topic was use of cover. The instant this officer took cover, he reverted to 'sport shooting' mode. He was for more interested in 'beating the clock' than in learning anything about saving his life. In his effort to go through the drill as quickly as possible, all basics were cast aside. Scanning before moving, getting behind cover as opposed to getting into the box and not 'foot faulting', exposing his head above low cover, sticking the gun beyond the cover; etc. All good tactics were forgotten in a mad, preprogrammed rush to get to the end in the shortest time possible.

I explained the difference between sport shooting and serious shooting to the whole class. Our student was in agreement with all that was said and decided to give it another try, using correct tactics this time. His good intentions lasted all of five seconds! Without even realizing it, he resumed shooting against the clock.

We have much 'unlearning' to do!

It would be interesting to see some of these world class trainers go up against the Jarretts/Voigts/Barnharts/Sevigny's in any objectively measurable test of gun handling skills.

Well, Chuck Taylor was a world class IPSC competitor in the early days, and he gave it up because he decided it was a waste of time.

As far as I know, none of these competitors you mention ever take part in something like the National Tactical Invitationals - a course where you may OR MAY NOT have to shoot on any particular scenario, (Judgement) and where your goal is not to get the best possible score on a target in the least possible time, but rather to get out alive when some of the targets are shooting back (Force on Force via Simunitions or Airsoft).

Regards
John

 

[Lugnut]

... and hope our subsequent discussion has given you a few things to think about.

Regards
John

Absolutely! The logic Farnam uses is quiet reasonable. I also can see the absolute benefit of the Bruce Gray training which certainly benefits fast competitive shooting. On the street if God forbid it's ever needed, I hope I have the skills and capability to do the right thing. I can honestly think of different scenarios where each is a benefit.... if someone draws a knife on me and is coming towards me I could be inclinded to draw and aim with the finger OFF the trigger and give the perpetrator the "chance" to back down. On the other hand if someone has a gun aimed at me or a family member- I don't think negotiation is something I'd consider and a quicker shot is what I'd want.

Either way- it's a very relevant discussion. Thanks

 

[matt]

.... if someone draws a knife on me and is coming towards me I could be inclinded to draw and aim with the finger OFF the trigger and give the perpetrator the "chance" to back down.

I'm afraid you're more generous than I am...

 

[KMaurer]

... if someone draws a knife on me and is coming towards me I could be inclinded to draw and aim with the finger OFF the trigger and give the perpetrator the "chance" to back down. On the other hand if someone has a gun aimed at me or a family member- I don't think negotiation is something I'd consider and a quicker shot is what I'd want.

I would too, assuming that he's approaching from about 30 yards out. Once he gets inside 10 yards or so, I'll be doing two things -- moving off his line of approach and methodically emptying my magazine into him until he's no longer approaching.

Ken