Any way to see all of the FA-10s that I have filed in MA?

[Mark from MA]

Just because they weren't in the MIRCS system prior to 7/20/16 does not mean they are not pre-Healey. If I'm wrong, I'm sure that someone will correct me.

I hate to read and use the term pre-Healey because it gives her phony interpretation of the law some legitimacy that it really doesn't have.

No...you aren't wrong. The lowers legally do not need to be registered on FA-10 til they are built into a firearm.

Many have non registered pre-7/20/16 lowers, the only proof you need lies in the federal form you transferred it in on. Many of the dealers that did these transfers are out of business, and many people did not keep a simple register slip from years ago, where they saw nothing like this coming. I'll also contend that many slips might have been just for a transfer fee and nothing else, as the receiver may have been bought online. So really....you have a receipt for a transfer fee, with nothing else on it, what does that prove? Sure, had we seen this coming maybe all the name and numbers might have gotten put on the slip....a lot of times they didn't.

The state would have to look up the federal records to prove you transferred it in after 7/20/16 to do anything to you about it. In 99% of the cases, that would conclude that most people transferred them in before 7/20/16 and they are Healy legal. They would essentially prove they have absolutely no case against you.

Not to mention the fact that there is no actual LAW backing up the pre 7/20/16 thing. I'm not sure which LAW they would charge you with breaking in the first place.

Part of my point here is, that anyone can scratch together a sales receipt.....it alone means crap. The federal paperwork would be the proof positive in any and all cases against someone.

 

[Broc]

I requested mine after Maura "redefined the AWB" just to see what was there. There are 2 guns listed under my name that I have never even heard of or owned. Great record keeping!

Report them as stolen.
Get 2 free guns.
Sell as LNIB in NES.
Profit.

Joking aside, since this list doesnt show what you sold. Let's assume someone commits a crime with a gun you sold (followed all laws) and the PD can look the serial number and see you as the owner (assume the gun was bought new in MA and later sold to someone in MA). You lost the receipt or printed form showing you sold it.

How do you prove you dont own that gun?

Does the state have access to other records we dont have access to?

 

[Mark from MA]

I requested mine after Maura "redefined the AWB" just to see what was there. There are 2 guns listed under my name that I have never even heard of or owned. Great record keeping!

That's really nice to know.....

Not to mention all the guns that were traded or sold out of state. You still own them as far as that is concerned. There is no dispositioning as there is in a FFL situation.

Its a total mess......the whole thing. I really don't know why anyone would pay money for a list of something that is mostly wrong. Unless you only bought a few guns and never sold or traded anything....its likely wrong.

 

[drgrant]

Yes, you can ask the state for this silly list of guns you supposedly have. It might be a good laugh. (people have told me tons of shit is missing from their
list, or guns are on their list they never had, etc. )

The obvious question begged is...

"BUT Y THO?"

This kind of inquiry typically involves some idea that an MA gun owner has that's a 110% complete and total waste of time.

Additionally the happy fun ball component of the whole thing, is even if you did have an FA-10 form, etc, or some documentation, it's not as if someone couldn't
doctor that up to feed it to a dealer or something. For pre-98 handgun compliance in this state, at least until people figured out how to drive around it, doctoring
up old photocopies of blue cards and FA-10s was likely a side hobby in this state... When I started reading the regs the first thing I thought of was "I wonder how much paper that dealers have on these exempt guns that's completely and totally fake, but yet there is no way the state or dealer can really verify it, at least not for the purposes of handgun compliance". This issue isn't any different....

-Mike

 

[Dennis in MA]

So if you had a lower that was sent to a "free'er" state and wasn't "registered" prior to 9/94, now what are you going to do??? Registration of pre-ban rifles is only available in a few select states. I'm sure the Comm of Ma would have just as difficult time "proving" the rifle was just in a lower-receiver configuration prior to 9/94.

 

[Glockster30]

No...you aren't wrong. The lowers legally do not need to be registered on FA-10 til they are built into a firearm.

Many have non registered pre-7/20/16 lowers, the only proof you need lies in the federal form you transferred it in on. Many of the dealers that did these transfers are out of business, and many people did not keep a simple register slip from years ago, where they saw nothing like this coming. I'll also contend that many slips might have been just for a transfer fee and nothing else, as the receiver may have been bought online. So really....you have a receipt for a transfer fee, with nothing else on it, what does that prove? Sure, had we seen this coming maybe all the name and numbers might have gotten put on the slip....a lot of times they didn't.

The state would have to look up the federal records to prove you transferred it in after 7/20/16 to do anything to you about it. In 99% of the cases, that would conclude that most people transferred them in before 7/20/16 and they are Healy legal. They would essentially prove they have absolutely no case against you.

Not to mention the fact that there is no actual LAW backing up the pre 7/20/16 thing. I'm not sure which LAW they would charge you with breaking in the first place.

Part of my point here is, that anyone can scratch together a sales receipt.....it alone means crap. The federal paperwork would be the proof positive in any and all cases against someone.

That's the problem; with FFLs out of business, you can't get the 4473, and it's still a hassle to get a copy of it if the FFL is still in business. However, with my sales receipt, it shows the cost of each lower in addition to the S/N of each lower, so if the state contested my purchase, a copy of the 4473 would add further proof on the purchase date.

Yes, you can ask the state for this silly list of guns you supposedly have. It might be a good laugh. (people have told me tons of shit is missing from their
list, or guns are on their list they never had, etc. )

The obvious question begged is... "BUT Y THO?"

This kind of inquiry typically involves some idea that an MA gun owner has that's a 110% complete and total waste of time.

Additionally the happy fun ball component of the whole thing, is even if you did have an FA-10 form, etc, or some documentation, it's not as if someone couldn't
doctor that up to feed it to a dealer or something. For pre-98 handgun compliance in this state, at least until people figured out how to drive around it, doctoring
up old photocopies of blue cards and FA-10s was likely a side hobby in this state... When I started reading the regs the first thing I thought of was "I wonder how much paper that dealers have on these exempt guns that's completely and totally fake, but yet there is no way the state or dealer can really verify it, at least not for the purposes of handgun compliance". This issue isn't any different....

-Mike

No question that the list is BS. Guns that I sold years ago are still listed under my name. However, wrt pre-ban 1994 and pre-Healey rifles, it's not a waste of time to have the info. How many people would buy a gun off you just based on your say so that it is pre this or pre that? WRT a personal sale, an exempt gun is not even an issue. I'm also not sure why someone would attempt to doctor an FA10 unless they were looking to get into a world of hurt if caught.

There's also another very good reason to know what is listed under your name, but I'm not going to discuss or mention it on a public forum.

 

[jpm]

I specifically said PRE-BAN and what I said about pre-ban lowers/rifles is 100% accurate. You are conflating pre-ban with pre-healy interpretation. One has NOTHING to do with the other. If it was not on the books somewhere as a rifle before 9/13/1994 then it is not preban no matter when it was sold.

The part that is underlined in your quote doesn't appear to be totally accurate because of the different ways that FFLs handled lowers. Some FFls would require an FA10 on lowers when sold while other FFLs only did the Form 4473. I know this because I have 2 of each.

The two lowers that went through the FA10 were registered as rifles even though they were not complete rifles. The other 2 did not go through the FA10 filing - just the fed Form 4473. I have the sales slips from the FFL for these 2 lowers to prove that they were purchased and in the state prior to 7/20/16 even though they never underwent the FA10 or MIRCS, if you will, which again brings us back to the underlined sentence in your reply. Just because they weren't in the MIRCS system prior to 7/20/16 does not mean they are not pre-Healey. If I'm wrong, I'm sure that someone will correct me.

 

[Glockster30]

I specifically said PRE-BAN and what I said about pre-ban lowers/rifles is 100% accurate. You are conflating pre-ban with pre-healy interpretation. One has NOTHING to do with the other. If it was not on the books somewhere as a rifle before 9/13/1994 then it is not preban no matter when it was sold.

Sorry, but I am not conflating anything wrt 1994 and 2016. All I'm doing is getting a copy of the MA paperwork to show that my 2 rifles were complete rifles prior to the 9/13/94 AWB date. What I said about someone with a pre-7/20/16 lower but post 1994, it is good to go wrt buying a post-ban upper for it and do whatever they want with it.

As far as I know, it's the same for a pre-1994 lower, which would either have a 4473 and/or both the 4473 and the FA10 for it. The 4473 would have the lower registered as a rifle because as you know, the feds consider a frame or a lower receiver a firearm, whereas MA does not recognize a lower as a firearm until it has an upper attached to it. If you can provide a citation that states otherwise, i.e., wrt to a pre-1994 lower only, I would appreciate reading it (even though I don't have a pre-1994 lower, but I could if I sold the upper).

 

[Broc]

So if you had a lower that was sent to a "free'er" state and wasn't "registered" prior to 9/94, now what are you going to do??? Registration of pre-ban rifles is only available in a few select states. I'm sure the Comm of Ma would have just as difficult time "proving" the rifle was just in a lower-receiver configuration prior to 9/94.

I have a lower in MA that was never turned into a gun and never registered. It was an Acme Armament Group buy, back when they were still in Halifax.

I guess I cant turn it into a "legal" gun until I move one day.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I have a lower in MA that was never turned into a gun and never registered. It was an Acme Armament Group buy, back when they were still in Halifax.

I guess I cant turn it into a "legal" gun until I move one day.

If that was the NES group buy processed thru Acme, yes you can build it up and register it, the AGO stated as much in the FOIA (equivalent) release of Emails. I own 2 of those, the receipts gave the S/Ns and date of transfer to us.

 

[Broc]

If that was the NES group buy processed thru Acme, yes you can build it up and register it, the AGO stated as much in the FOIA (equivalent) release of Emails. I own 2 of those, the receipts gave the S/Ns and date of transfer to us.

Yeah, the receipt is gone. I dont think there is any proof of when I bought it.

 

[Glockster30]

Yeah, the receipt is gone. I dont think there is any proof of when I bought it.

You still had to fill out the fed Form 4473, which has the S/N on it, so that is proof of when you bought it. You could also get the approximate date of transfer from Len's sales receipt as to when the transfer took place. Then, if ACME is still around, they should be able to get you a copy of the receipt, and it's much easier for the FFL if you have a good guess as to the date it happened. I had to do this for 2 lowers that I bought in April 2016 with another FFL. Who the f**K knew that saving the receipt 3 months before the AG went nuts was important.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Yeah, the receipt is gone. I dont think there is any proof of when I bought it.

Question - Did you DL/print/save the list of those that paid in the group buy? That would establish a relative date as well.

 

[Len-2A Training]

You still had to fill out the fed Form 4473, which has the S/N on it, so that is proof of when you bought it. You could also get the approximate date of transfer from Len's sales receipt as to when the transfer took place. Then, if ACME is still around, they should be able to get you a copy of the receipt, and it's much easier for the FFL if you have a good guess as to the date it happened. I had to do this for 2 lowers that I bought in April 2016 with another FFL. Who the f**K knew that saving the receipt 3 months before the AG went nuts was important.

Before I leave MA, I'm considering selling one or two lowers. Problem is those receipts are either in a pile or a file and I've not made the time to search for them.

Well he's in some sort of luck, I DL'd some PMs to clear out a full mailbox and guess what I found:

================================================================================
From : Woop-woop
To : 01SVTvert
97serpent
beaker
deadhead133
Exousia
glostamon
graftyman
Jarvis
jdubois
JoeT
Kaos116
LenS
matt
MPython
OnTheRoad
Rcharnitsk
tele_mark
Tommy258
Viper22
wolfhook
Date : 2009-12-09 23:13
Title : Delaware lowers group buy!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you’re getting this PM it's because you have indicated that you want to participate in the Delaware group buy. I know I could have ran the buy much more efficiently and I do apologize for that, That said I urgently need all of you to send an email to the email address provided below. In that email please indicate how many lowers you want and where you want them to be sent. The group buy will close tomorrow at midnight for new participants and the sooner I get the information being asked of you the sooner payments can be accepted. Also if you jumped into this buy without thinking and want out, please email me telling me you want out, it’s no big deal but please email me!
As people give me the information need it, I will mark it next to their name, so everyone knows how were moving along.

The choices are:

Four Seasons, $15 fees
Acme Armament, $10 fees
First Defense, $20 fees

So that gives a ballpark idea of the group buy.

 

[TLB]

Yeah, the receipt is gone. I dont think there is any proof of when I bought it.

It is up to the state to prove you didn't have it. Unless you want to sell it for a large profit to someone who cares about the Healy BS, it doesn't matter.

 

[Broc]

It is up to the state to prove you didn't have it. Unless you want to sell it for a large profit to someone who cares about the Healy BS, it doesn't matter.

Lol, what state do you live in?

Last time I looked, we are guilty until we can prove we are innocent.

 

[Broc]

Before I leave MA, I'm considering selling one or two lowers. Problem is those receipts are either in a pile or a file and I've not made the time to search for them.

Well he's in some sort of luck, I DL'd some PMs to clear out a full mailbox and guess what I found:



So that gives a ballpark idea of the group buy.

Thanks. I will check with ACME see what they have on file. I hate bothering them with that crap.

 

[TLB]

Lol, what state do you live in?

Last time I looked, we are guilty until we can prove we are innocent.

mAss
She said they are all illegal, so why worry about a born on date? If push comes to shove, don't talk to police and lawyer up. If that's too much, then get rid of all the scary guns, which is what they want anyway.

 

[Broc]

mAss
She said they are all illegal, so why worry about a born on date? If push comes to shove, don't talk to police and lawyer up. If that's too much, then get rid of all the scary guns, which is what they want anyway.

I know what to do.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Lol, what state do you live in?

Last time I looked, we are guilty until we can prove we are innocent.

Correct. The law says one thing, but if they want to make your life a living hell, they will prosecute and MAYBE after you pay a lawyer 10s of thousands of dollars over a few years, you might "win"! The "ride" is the punishment in most cases in MA.

Thanks. I will check with ACME see what they have on file. I hate bothering them with that crap.

Last I knew they were out of business, so the 4473s were sent to BATFE and maybe unlikely that he kept all the receipt books. Good luck.