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Another Unfortunate Gun Bonded Warehouse (Tombstone Trading Post)

dgrantdoherty said:
Hnnnnng!
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Don’t feel bad I just made an Instagram for the first time like two months ago. Honestly I enjoy that way more than Facebook or anything similar because there is at least a gun community on there and it’s easy to blend into your interests beyond guns. I will still never make a personal account though.
 
Wait, Dave Bourdeau is the guy who owns and runs that shop? I took my NRA basic class with him as instructor over at Hamilton in Sturbridge back in 2013 and later bought a WASR10/63 off the rack from his shop without fuss and a couple oiled up prebans he had laying in basket. Solid instructor and striked me as a stand up guy. Never thought he was a FUDD. What happened to the guy ever since?
 
G4Y4HK said:
Wait, Dave Bourdeau is the guy who owns and runs that shop? I took my NRA basic class with him as instructor over at Hamilton in Sturbridge back in 2013 and later bought a WASR10/63 off the rack from his shop without fuss and a couple oiled up prebans he had laying in basket. Solid instructor and striked me as a stand up guy. Never thought he was a FUDD. What happened to the guy ever since?
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Same experience. Healey got to him. He sees laws on the common man a way to put $ in his pocket.
 
Looks like they went Bonded Warehouse in 2017. 👎

www.linkedin.com

Tombstone Trading Company Now Offering Secure Firearm Storage Services

Tombstone Trading Company, Inc. has announced that they are now a state and federally licensed bonded warehouse, offering secure firearm, ammunition and accessories storage for police departments, law firms and individuals.
www.linkedin.com www.linkedin.com
 
AHM said:
I dunno,
but I didn't realize Maker's Mark came in nips.
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Just about everything comes in nips. Most nips are nasty liquor. But you can get fancy-nips, too. (Usually with sequins. ROFL!)

Coyote33 said:
Easy enough to do...
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I'd need to be on InstaPuke first. I'm on FB because I have to be. Keep track of the kids and family and the business account. Instagram??? I can't explain how bad that platform is for people. Thankfully my wife took the torch on watching the kids on that one. For most people, your time would be better spent on Tick-Clock - even with Chinese hacking. It takes the worst of FB - the "look at me and my perfect life" fantasy and sets it out there all by itself. GAHH!!!!

Sorry. I don't often rant about social media. But Instagram is da Debbil!
 
Dennis in MA said:
Just about everything comes in nips. Most nips are nasty liquor. But you can get fancy-nips, too. (Usually with sequins. ROFL!)



I'd need to be on InstaPuke first. I'm on FB because I have to be. Keep track of the kids and family and the business account. Instagram??? I can't explain how bad that platform is for people. Thankfully my wife took the torch on watching the kids on that one. For most people, your time would be better spent on Tick-Clock - even with Chinese hacking. It takes the worst of FB - the "look at me and my perfect life" fantasy and sets it out there all by itself. GAHH!!!!

Sorry. I don't often rant about social media. But Instagram is da Debbil!
Click to expand...
No Twitter is the devil, Facebook is boring and the devil. There is (to my surprise too) a very vibrant gun community on Instagram with branches for every interest. I actually have come to enjoy it and even though it’s for my shop treat it like a hobby.
 
I'm going to ask a couple of questions for the FFLs from the position of utter ignorance on bonding side, with the belief that seizure is bullshit and profiteering is doubly so, but also the realization that until the laws change the warehousing is a thing.

1. What is a rough cost for insuring stock in your safe, say at a half million in coverage to start?

2. Are there any state minimums for fees associated with storage of weapons seized under flags or no contact order? Are there any such municipal minimums?

3. Is the intake and return processing remotely anything like the processing for purchase, needing the state system handoff, or is this all simply paperwork and bound book record keeping?

4. Are municipalities charged for servicing on the intake, or is everything being shoved to the firearm owner?

5. Ultimately, is there a way that actual pro-2A FFLs could step into this arena, rather than yielding it solely to the max-profiteering FFLs that are holding court?

I'm being honest here- time is money. The insurance has a cost. But if that cost can be structured on the client side (ie, the police/state agencies turning them over) at a competitive rate, and lower the floor on the owner side ($5-10/month per 10 firearms or more, as an example), then you're getting into a situation where departments field less blowback calls, pay less on their side to get the guns out of their hands, and then you're doing the fellow owner an actual solid when they're in a bad spot (rather than raping them when they're already out lawyer fees, court costs, looking at alimony/etc), it's the sort of thing that really starts to put the profiteers in a bad public light.

It just seems like the profiteering is happening because the amount of bookkeeping bother is too great for anyone willing to do people a solid and not bend them over.
 
1. Good luck collecting if a bonded warehouse says "sorry, guns stolen, under our terms of service that is your loss".
2. No state regulation of warehouse fees. Word is there was back channel communication tot he GCAB in which the warehouses threatened shutdown if any regulations were issued.
3. Similar, though the law is ambiguous as to how the transfer relates to non-compliant (EOPS list, AG non-list) guns
4. No cost to municipalities. At one time Dowd was paying a bonus in terms of shop credits as a commission to surrendering departments, or perhaps individual officers
5. Could be, but lots of costs. I have two FFLs I would call for direct pickup if my guns were seized. If you give consent for the FFL it does not have to be a "bonded" warehouse.

Profiteering has been occurring because the entire system is a textbook example of economic rents.
 
Wooderson said:
I'm going to ask a couple of questions for the FFLs from the position of utter ignorance on bonding side, with the belief that seizure is bullshit and profiteering is doubly so, but also the realization that until the laws change the warehousing is a thing.

1. What is a rough cost for insuring stock in your safe, say at a half million in coverage to start? You'll never be able to claim it.

2. Are there any state minimums for fees associated with storage of weapons seized under flags or no contact order? Are there any such municipal minimums? No and let it be known that you do not have to be a gun bonded warehouse to provide any of the services of a bonded warehouse. Bonded warehouses are a far more malicious model of what FFLs ALREADY legally provide.

3. Is the intake and return processing remotely anything like the processing for purchase, needing the state system handoff, or is this all simply paperwork and bound book record keeping? No. If you receive your LTC back the guns should have been returned by the police department because the guns never ceased to actually be owned/registered to the individual. If you are a permanent loss of license or you want it transferred to somebody else they have to follow the full traditional process in MA.

4. Are municipalities charged for servicing on the intake, or is everything being shoved to the firearm owner? See Rob Boudrie's answer. This was intended for departments to eliminate backlogs because many PDs were having stores of firearms that had been sitting for years and they needed a method to get rid of them. Not to move firearms out as soon as/or very soon after receipt.

5. Ultimately, is there a way that actual pro-2A FFLs could step into this arena, rather than yielding it solely to the max-profiteering FFLs that are holding court? Again, FFLs don't need to be a bonded warehouses to offer any of these services. I have done 12.5 (the half being the attempts in this one mixed with my actual experience) pickups for individuals at this point. There are ways to go about this that are far healthier and still make fair money for your time involved.

I'm being honest here- time is money. The insurance has a cost. But if that cost can be structured on the client side (ie, the police/state agencies turning them over) at a competitive rate, and lower the floor on the owner side ($5-10/month per 10 firearms or more, as an example), then you're getting into a situation where departments field less blowback calls, pay less on their side to get the guns out of their hands, and then you're doing the fellow owner an actual solid when they're in a bad spot (rather than raping them when they're already out lawyer fees, court costs, looking at alimony/etc), it's the sort of thing that really starts to put the profiteers in a bad public light. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. I don't think a single department PAYS to get guns out of their hands. All the fees, prices and forfeiture of property comes directly from the original owner.

It just seems like the profiteering is happening because the amount of bookkeeping bother is too great for anyone willing to do people a solid and not bend them over. There are numerous FFLs that provide services because again, you don't need to be a gun bonded warehouse. But gun bonded warehouses form unhealthy relationships with police departments that creates this mentality that a gun HAS to go to a bonded warehouses. Many seem to fail to understand the law says the department MAY send guns to a bonded warehouse NOT SHALL send the guns to a bonded warehouse. The law also states that the owner is to receive ALL of his firearms back if he gets his LTC back (unique to this case) and that if the owner wants any guns to go to a FFL the owner SHALL be able to determine where they are to go provided they are not officially evidence.
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Wooderson said:
I'm being honest here- time is money. The insurance has a cost. But if that cost can be structured on the client side (ie, the police/state agencies turning them over) at a competitive rate, and lower the floor on the owner side ($5-10/month per 10 firearms or more, as an example), then you're getting into a situation where departments field less blowback calls, pay less on their side to get the guns out of their hands, and then you're doing the fellow owner an actual solid when they're in a bad spot (rather than raping them when they're already out lawyer fees, court costs, looking at alimony/etc), it's the sort of thing that really starts to put the profiteers in a bad public light.

It just seems like the profiteering is happening because the amount of bookkeeping bother is too great for anyone willing to do people a solid and not bend them over.
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I think @Rob Boudrie answered your questions better than I could, so I won't answer them individually.

But to comment on the "time is money" aspect of your post:

I don't think there is a gun owner here that doesn't underestimate the service an FFL would be providing to get firearms back from the government. Would I personally toss some $ to the FFL for their time, absolutely. Some may not be in the financial situation at that time to pay to get their property back. You must remember, when this is happening, that person is also most likely paying expensive lawyer fees, court fees, facing divorce, etc......

So FFLs that chose to impose their own fee for their service is literally kicking someone when they are down to get their own property back.

The FFLs that charge fees for this service do not realize the power of a good reputation. You help someone out when they need it, it WILL come back to you in the form of more actual profitable business in the future.

The problem with bonded warehouses and as seen in this situation, they start to impose their own rules, for their benefit because they know they hold all the cards.

A) Charging fees on days they are unavailable
B) Picking and choosing which firearms they can/cannot transfer back to the legal owner
C) Making their own requirements for a receiving FFL
D) Having a pay for all or none type system (Dowd) meaning you cannot bail out partial collections to stop fees on some firearms if you cannot bail them all out.
E) Selling property that isn't the FFLs to receive $ for their fees.
 
enbloc said:
Also funny that the $18.75 was labeled "TAX VALUE"
and nothing entered under the "ACTUAL TAX" line....

View attachment 538255
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Scumbag tactics.
F**k em.
May they suffer a slow painful demise.
I've been to the store several times, see them @ the shows, etc. There was always "something" about them that I never felt comfortable with. Well, the way they handled this explains everything.
F u tombstone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Nick Leduc said:
I think @Rob Boudrie answered your questions better than I could, so I won't answer them individually.

But to comment on the "time is money" aspect of your post:

I don't think there is a gun owner here that doesn't underestimate the service an FFL would be providing to get firearms back from the government. Would I personally toss some $ to the FFL for their time, absolutely. Some may not be in the financial situation at that time to pay to get their property back. You must remember, when this is happening, that person is also most likely paying expensive lawyer fees, court fees, facing divorce, etc......

So FFLs that chose to impose their own fee for their service is literally kicking someone when they are down to get their own property back.

The FFLs that charge fees for this service do not realize the power of a good reputation. You help someone out when they need it, it WILL come back to you in the form of more actual profitable business in the future.

The problem with bonded warehouses and as seen in this situation, they start to impose their own rules, for their benefit because they know they hold all the cards.

A) Charging fees on days they are unavailable
B) Picking and choosing which firearms they can/cannot transfer back to the legal owner
C) Making their own requirements for a receiving FFL
D) Having a pay for all or none type system (Dowd) meaning you cannot bail out partial collections to stop fees on some firearms if you cannot bail them all out.
E) Selling property that isn't the FFLs to receive $ for their fees.
Click to expand...
Not to mention how people like Dowd were defining objects that were to be itemized in that total all or nothing really. Leaving a situation where individual boxes of ammo were subject to transfer in, storage fee and transfer out fee and towards that all or nothing policy. Where you could end up owing $1,000+ for two cases of 9mm, a case of 556 and three guns.
Edit: Tombstone was NOT doing anything like that, but it further shows the types of abuse that occur with places that know they hold all the cards and there is a clock ticking towards automatic forfeiture.
 
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Nick Leduc said:
I think @Rob Boudrie answered your questions better than I could, so I won't answer them individually.

But to comment on the "time is money" aspect of your post:

I don't think there is a gun owner here that doesn't underestimate the service an FFL would be providing to get firearms back from the government. Would I personally toss some $ to the FFL for their time, absolutely. Some may not be in the financial situation at that time to pay to get their property back. You must remember, when this is happening, that person is also most likely paying expensive lawyer fees, court fees, facing divorce, etc......

So FFLs that chose to impose their own fee for their service is literally kicking someone when they are down to get their own property back.

The FFLs that charge fees for this service do not realize the power of a good reputation. You help someone out when they need it, it WILL come back to you in the form of more actual profitable business in the future.

The problem with bonded warehouses and as seen in this situation, they start to impose their own rules, for their benefit because they know they hold all the cards.

A) Charging fees on days they are unavailable
B) Picking and choosing which firearms they can/cannot transfer back to the legal owner
C) Making their own requirements for a receiving FFL
D) Having a pay for all or none type system (Dowd) meaning you cannot bail out partial collections to stop fees on some firearms if you cannot bail them all out.
E) Selling property that isn't the FFLs to receive $ for their fees.
Click to expand...

I appreciate the answers and that's why I'm trying to ascertain what a fair price level could be for decent FFLs who were to to into that area. And I don't expect anyone would recover a dime in the event of a safe loss/theft/fire, I'm simply operating under the expectation of some form of requirement to show for licensing/bonding/etc. Basically ground floor on the costs to determine a fair rate for those that haven't been forward thinking (speed dial FFLs to recover your stash, etc). Just enough for the bother and blanketing the cost on a monthly rate ($10-15 for paperwork, $5 a month for a number of firearms) so that people in a bad spot aren't having their situation made even worse.
 
Wooderson said:
I appreciate the answers and that's why I'm trying to ascertain what a fair price level could be for decent FFLs who were to to into that area. And I don't expect anyone would recover a dime in the event of a safe loss/theft/fire, I'm simply operating under the expectation of some form of requirement to show for licensing/bonding/etc. Basically ground floor on the costs to determine a fair rate for those that haven't been forward thinking (speed dial FFLs to recover your stash, etc). Just enough for the bother and blanketing the cost on a monthly rate ($10-15 for paperwork, $5 a month for a number of firearms) so that people in a bad spot aren't having their situation made even worse.
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I understand.
As far as insurance goes, if the FFL isn't self insuring, then there is a blanket coverage. So their cost wouldn't go up if they were holding onto a collection. Could the charges help pay for the coverage, sure. But if that persons guns are there of not, that bill will always be there.

I think the biggest inconvenience to a FFL that offered this service is space. If we are talking about a small collection (a few firearms) then it would be easy to store the firearms. If we start talking massive collections, and over a long period of time, that's where the FFL would have a large burden on their hands. But I would say, majority of the time a person is looking to get their collection back into their hands ASAP, and if that isn't possible, then a trusted individual to do the transfer.
 
Nick Leduc said:
I understand.
As far as insurance goes, if the FFL isn't self insuring, then there is a blanket coverage. So their cost wouldn't go up if they were holding onto a collection. Could the charges help pay for the coverage, sure. But if that persons guns are there of not, that bill will always be there.
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You cannot just assume that the FFL is liable. The MA courts would probably view the "contract" with a bonded warehouse as one you entered into and are bound by, despite the fact you never agreed to anything (sort of a super-sticky implied contract of adhesion).

For example, chances are you will have to file a claim with you insurance if your car is parked at a dealership's lot while it has been left for service and is dynamically redistributed by someone who has yet to turn his life around. Your case against the dealer becomes a bit stronger if the is inside the building and there is a fire or theft loss,. The question is specifically in regards to bailee liability when that person has taken reasonable steps to protect the property and not acted in a negligent manner but even so, a loss is incurred.

In other words, it's complicated.
 
EJFudd said:
Looks like they went Bonded Warehouse in 2017. 👎

www.linkedin.com

Tombstone Trading Company Now Offering Secure Firearm Storage Services

Tombstone Trading Company, Inc. has announced that they are now a state and federally licensed bonded warehouse, offering secure firearm, ammunition and accessories storage for police departments, law firms and individuals.
www.linkedin.com www.linkedin.com
Click to expand...

Again: the PD should be outed, since they turned the guns over to Tombstone instead of following the law.

And also again: ask your LGS to participate in this service, and cut out the bonded warehouse corruption racket.

Hold My Guns

Hold My Guns
holdmyguns.org holdmyguns.org
 
I had occasion to be inside the "vault" at a shop that had formerly been in the b-w business (they stopped year ago, so I an not going to retroactively criticize them now, besides I do not know how they treated 'customers'. It was no longer in that business when I visited, but they still had some stuff they took in before they exited.

Their ad for vault services included a photo or high quality artistic rendering of a bank vault sized door and advertised "vault services". The actual "vault" was a locked room, including a locked door directly to the exterior of the building. The interred guns were sitting on shelves, not in safes or vaults. Nice setup for someone to pull a job, plus locking the door would probably qualify as "non-negligent" care under bailment law.
 

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