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Another Boeing 737 MAX 8 Flight Control Incident - 157 Dead

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by TC McQuade, Mar 10, 2019.

  1. TC McQuade

    TC McQuade NES Member

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    Another Boeing 737 MAX 8 Flight Control Incident

    Similar to the other 2 incidents just after takeoff the plain gives the pilot a handful and it's the second that crashed killing all onboard. This is new design plane with new flight control features.

    Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737

    All passengers on board an Ethiopian Airlines jet that crashed shortly after take-off on Sunday have died, the airline says. It said 149 passengers and eight crew members were believed to be on flight ET302 from Addis Ababa to Nairobi in Kenya.

    The airline added that there were 33 different nationalities on board.

    The crash happened at 08.44 local time, six minutes after the flight took-off from the Ethiopian capital.

    Its 737 Max-8 aircraft is relatively new to the skies, having been launched in 2016. It was added to the Ethiopian Airlines fleet in July last year.

    Another plane of the same model was involved in a crash five months ago, when a Lion Air flight crashed into the sea near Indonesia with nearly 190 people on board.

    Boeing in hotseat after Indonesian MAX jet crash

    Airplane manufacturing giant Boeing is in the hot seat after questions about its protocol were raised during an investigation into a fatal crash involving its new jetliner in Indonesia last month.

    It has been alleged that Boeing officials failed to warn pilots about the potential dangers associated with a new flight-control feature on its 737 MAX 8 aircraft, according to a recent article in The Wall Street Journal. The lack of warning is suspected of playing a role in the Lion Air crash, when the plane plunged into the Jakarta Sea shortly after takeoff. It was the first fatal crash involving one of Boeing’s newest aircraft and claimed 189 lives.

    The Journal also reported on Tuesday that when Boeing decided to install the flight-control feature, the company determined that it was fail-proof because it was impossible for the combination of sensor failure, pilot actions, and automated nose-down commands to cause any serious safety hazards.

    The newspaper also reviews a Nov. 10 Memo from Southwest Airlines, one of the U.S. carriers to start using the MAX jets, in which it’s claimed that Boeing had omitted information from flight manuals about the new flight control system, because pilots were unlikely to find themselves in any situation that would require them to use the system.

    In response to the fatal crash, the Federal Flight Administration (FAA) has launched a comprehensive review of safety analysis completed by Boeing Co. On Tuesday, it released a statement saying that agency officials were reviewing safety data and conclusions that the jet manufacturer previously provided to the federal agency during certification of both the 737 MAX 8 and MAX 9 models.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2019

  2. HARRYM

    HARRYM NES Member

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    Sometimes Pilots aren't the best qualified to fly certain planes, especially when things get tricky.
     
  3. Chevy 2 65

    Chevy 2 65 NES Member

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    Boeing decided to install the flight-control feature, the company determined that it was fail-proof because it was impossible for the combination of sensor failure, pilot actions, and automated nose-down commands to cause any serious safety hazards.

    Engineers also said the Titanic was un-sinkable.

    Boeing had omitted information from flight manuals about the new flight control system, because pilots were unlikely to find themselves in any situation that would require them to use the system.

    Yea, that makes a whole lotta sense. Who's the idiot that made that decision.

    Lots a fail on part of the company. In total how many crashes happened with this system?
     
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  4. Spanz

    Spanz NES Member

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    This is not rocket science.

    There needs to be a giant red button in front of the pilot that says: “AUTOPILOT DISCONNECT”
     
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  5. Spanz

    Spanz NES Member

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    That is why Jesus is MY copilot!
     
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  6. RKG

    RKG NES Member

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    I'm pretty sure issue is not autopilot disconnect but "fly by wire."
     
  7. Spanz

    Spanz NES Member

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    If I recall, the control system senses a stall and pushes the nose down, even though the plane is not anywhere near a stall. The pilot pulls back on the stick with the system fighting him. He gets it leveled out. Then, the system thinks there is another stall, and pushes the nose down.

    If the pilot disengaged the system after the first recovery, there would be no crashes. The pilot might have to land with stall warning alarms blaring, but the servo pushing the stick forward would be deactivated
     
  8. BBQ.Uncle

    BBQ.Uncle NES Life Member NES Member

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    Perhaps they forgot to fully inflate the auto pilot?

    6DC6A543-B0D3-4EC0-9888-3A01C9E60FB4.gif
     
  9. kevin9

    kevin9

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    Seems BAC neglected one of Murphy's Law's well-known adages, as expressed by Douglas Adams, "A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools."
     
  10. Golddiggie

    Golddiggie NES Member

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    It just when you've made something idiot proof, along comes bigger idiots.
     
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  11. W.E.C

    W.E.C NES Member

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    * unqualified pilot.
     
  12. snax

    snax NES Member

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    It's airplane science.
     
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  13. Woodstock

    Woodstock NES Member

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    Following the first crash Boeing went on record suggesting that the pilots had received insufficient training on the new system. That didn't go over well with the Indonesian airline folks.
     
  14. sbi

    sbi NES Member

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    Stick pusher has nothing to do with auto pilot. You can manually fly the a/c and the stick pusher is still active if the system thinks you are in a stall.
     
  15. falcon123

    falcon123 NES Member

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    They did but hillary stole it and used it as a RESET button with Putin.
    clinton-reset-button.jpg
     
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  16. falcon123

    falcon123 NES Member

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    There's the problem. The wires probably got tangled up.
     
  17. Super99Z

    Super99Z NES Member

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    The other problem with telling someone "don't worry this plane is idiot proof", you could end up with a situation where the pilot is thinking, "well this is what its supposed to do I guess" then BLAM.
     
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  18. Dennis in MA

    Dennis in MA NES Member

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    I recall 30 years ago and the Airbus that had a great anti-stall system that crashed a plane during a show, IIRC. Pilot was doing a low/slow flyby and plane was determined to land because of the impending stall.
     
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  19. M1911

    M1911 Moderator NES Member

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    This crash just happened half a world away. It is way too early for anyone to claim that they know what caused the crash.
     
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  20. Bonesinium

    Bonesinium NES Member

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  21. one-eyed Jack

    one-eyed Jack Manufacturer Dealer NES Member

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    In most of these jetliners doesn't the autopilot drop out if the yoke is played with? From flying light singles I found that was not the case in the Grumman AA5 Traveler. Maybe others? Jack.
     
  22. mibro

    mibro NES Member

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    True but based on reports so far it's pretty safe to say it was a pitch control problem. Where are our ATPs?

    "Within the first few minutes after take-off the plane's vertical speed varied from 2624 feet per minute to -1216. According to Swedish flight-tracking website flightradar24 the flight 'had unstable vertical speed' shortly after take off (top)."
     
  23. M1911

    M1911 Moderator NES Member

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    We don’t know. Wait until the FDR and CVR are recovered and analyzed. Radar coverage data is often suspect.

    This aircraft took off from an airport at very high elevation (~7,800’). It may have simply been a density altitude mistake on the airlines part — too hot, too high, and too heavy.
     
  24. drgrant

    drgrant Moderator NES Member

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    Not quite I want to say they convicted the pilot of manslaughter or something.... if you start doing digging on that incident it's a lot more complicated than just blaming the computer on the plane...
     
  25. M1911

    M1911 Moderator NES Member

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    Not sure if you are referring to the 737 crash or Airbus crash.

    737 crash:

    1) We don’t know if the aircraft was on autopilot. Chances are it was not.

    2) The 737 Max has an automatic pitch trim system that is driven by the AOA sensors. In the Lion Air crash, the AOA sensors appear to have been sending incorrect AOA data to the pitch trim system, and the flight crew should have followed the runaway pitch trim procedure, which would have stopped the auto pitch trim system.

    Airbus crash:

    Current Airbus aircraft have sidesticks, not yokes. The sidesticks aren’t directly connected to the control surfaces. The aircraft are fly by wire, so the wires from the sidesticks go to the flight control computers that actually send signals that move the control surfaces.

    In that Airbus accident, control mode confusion was a factor. But the main issue was that the fly by wasn’t planned correctly and never should have been performed with passengers on the aircraft.

    A similar issue occurred in the Boeing 777 Korean Air crash in SF — the pilots were confused about the selected auto throttle mode and inadvertently got too slow on approach.

    The automated system system on modern air transports are a world away from those on old piston singles.
     
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  26. one-eyed Jack

    one-eyed Jack Manufacturer Dealer NES Member

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    Thanks for the info. I go back to when the Beech Sierra was the most complex A/C I would fly. Jack.
     
  27. mu2bdriver

    mu2bdriver NES Member

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    Yup. And don’t be surprised to see the same suggestion here. Blaming insufficient training on third world airlines is an easy game to play.
     
  28. Chevy 2 65

    Chevy 2 65 NES Member

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  29. The5thDentist

    The5thDentist NES Life Member NES Member

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    Or is it a shitty feature that no one asked for and that the old man would have never let leave the R&D building?
     
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  30. mibro

    mibro NES Member

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    This is what a density altitude/weight/power problem looks like. One of my favorite aviation videos.

     

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