An FFL is in trouble for connecting AR upper and lower

If I understand correctly the difference is your not an FFL, guy in the article is, different rules?
Personal use vs sale is different, but the question is: if the lower is the part that is legally considered a firearm, how does adding an upper constitute making a firearm? An additional firearm is not created, parts were just affixed to an existing one. Putting a roof rack on your car and changing the wheels does not mean you manufactured a new car, you just changed parts on a machine with an existing VIN.

edit: the post before mine is interesting and better. Receiver -> Pistol -> Receiver -> Rifle is changing designations, so I suppose while a new firearm is not being created, it makes sense that you are manufacturing something with a different ATF definition.
 
My response is purely federal law based and has nothing to do with any state laws or definitions. It also has nothing to do with the current 80% receivers, receiver kits, etc. This is all very basic and clear and not muddled by current events or political crap.

Federally we have a taxonomy with Firearm covering everything. Firearms can be different types with the obvious ones being rifle and pistol. If you decompose a rifle you usually have an object that is still a firearm called a receiver. A pistol maybe be made from a frame or receiver. The key concept here is that if you have a functioning rifle or pistol (or anything else) and decompose it, there is always some basic element that is the firearm until you decompose too far.

So if you are holding a receiver which is a firearm and marked, serialized, etc, you have a federally regulated item. Let’s say for this discussion it is Anderson AM15 stripper ar15 lower. If you take this and complete the lower by putting in a LPK and buffer and stock you still have a receiver and therefore what you have done is “gunsmithing”. The object has not changed state as it was a receiver and still is a receiver.

Now you attach a complete upper. The object you are holding is now a rifle. This is a change in taxonomy from a receiver to a rifle. This constitutes manufacturing. With the exception of manufacturing that is decomposing, you must mark the item when manufacturing. This is a FFL requirement we are talking about. Any manufacture must mark what they make. So you would keep all the markings you can but the FFL must add business name and business city and state. They must also record this manufacturing in their bound book.

If you turn a rifle into a receiver, this too is manufacturing. It must be recorded in your bound book. Because you are decomposing an existing object, there are no marking requirements as long as the resulting object is properly marked.

All manufacturing requires a proper FFL, an 07 in this case.

As a private party you have no requirements to mark or record what you make. So when you put an upper on a lower while it constitutes manufacturing, there are no federal laws that require marking, licenses, etc UNLESS you are doing it for profit. Private manufacturing for personal use is fine. Manufacturing for profit or for someone else even if not for profit requires a license.

You can help your friend build an AR. You can turn the stripped lower into a complete lower. You can build a complete upper. You cannot put an upper on a lower for someone else. Sure, this is very unlikely to get caught or cared about, but it constitutes manufacturing and you cannot do this for someone else without a license.
Can you provide any links that back this up? How does one "mark" an already marked firearm?
 
My response is purely federal law based and has nothing to do with any state laws or definitions. It also has nothing to do with the current 80% receivers, receiver kits, etc. This is all very basic and clear and not muddled by current events or political crap.

Federally we have a taxonomy with Firearm covering everything. Firearms can be different types with the obvious ones being rifle and pistol. If you decompose a rifle you usually have an object that is still a firearm called a receiver. A pistol maybe be made from a frame or receiver. The key concept here is that if you have a functioning rifle or pistol (or anything else) and decompose it, there is always some basic element that is the firearm until you decompose too far.

So if you are holding a receiver which is a firearm and marked, serialized, etc, you have a federally regulated item. Let’s say for this discussion it is Anderson AM15 stripper ar15 lower. If you take this and complete the lower by putting in a LPK and buffer and stock you still have a receiver and therefore what you have done is “gunsmithing”. The object has not changed state as it was a receiver and still is a receiver.

Now you attach a complete upper. The object you are holding is now a rifle. This is a change in taxonomy from a receiver to a rifle. This constitutes manufacturing. With the exception of manufacturing that is decomposing, you must mark the item when manufacturing. This is a FFL requirement we are talking about. Any manufacture must mark what they make. So you would keep all the markings you can but the FFL must add business name and business city and state. They must also record this manufacturing in their bound book.

If you turn a rifle into a receiver, this too is manufacturing. It must be recorded in your bound book. Because you are decomposing an existing object, there are no marking requirements as long as the resulting object is properly marked.

All manufacturing requires a proper FFL, an 07 in this case.

As a private party you have no requirements to mark or record what you make. So when you put an upper on a lower while it constitutes manufacturing, there are no federal laws that require marking, licenses, etc UNLESS you are doing it for profit. Private manufacturing for personal use is fine. Manufacturing for profit or for someone else even if not for profit requires a license.

You can help your friend build an AR. You can turn the stripped lower into a complete lower. You can build a complete upper. You cannot put an upper on a lower for someone else. Sure, this is very unlikely to get caught or cared about, but it constitutes manufacturing and you cannot do this for someone else without a license.

So if you are holding a receiver which is a firearm and marked, serialized, etc, you have a federally regulated item. Let’s say for this discussion it is Anderson AM15 stripper ar15 lower. If you take this and complete the lower by putting in a LPK and buffer and stock you still have a receiver and therefore what you have done is “gunsmithing”. The object has not changed state as it was a receiver and still is a receiver.

Now you attach a complete upper. The object you are holding is now a rifle. This is a change in taxonomy from a receiver to a rifle. This constitutes manufacturing. With the exception of manufacturing that is decomposing, you must mark the item when manufacturing. This is a FFL requirement we are talking about. Any manufacture must mark what they make. So you would keep all the markings you can but the FFL must add business name and business city and state. They must also record this manufacturing in their bound book
.

Wow. I did not know that.
Thank you.
 
Yes.

I lost a pre-healey AR as it was transferred from the prior owner who lost his license to the FFL complete, and then couldn't be transferred complete to me because of the Healey edict. It came into the shop as a full gun, it needed to leave as a full gun.

My option was to dig up a manufacturer (before I knew about the mill), pay on my dime to ship it, pay the manufacturing FFL costs, and either pick it up or ship it back.
I ended up shipping the gun out of state to a friend who graciously gave be a box of parts minus the receiver for Christmas that year.

"Pre Healey" :rolleyes: lord. I get douche chills whenever I see that and Post Healey :p
 
Can you provide any links that back this up? How does one "mark" an already marked firearm?
I’ll let you use your googlefu. Remember, this is all about FFLs and not private parties relative to marking. It’s all in the CFRs and part of the interview/training you get when you become a 07 FFL. Marking is no joke.

You add your business name, city and state. That is the minimum, you can reuse the make model and serial number. You can also remark these or add to them.

Century Arms usually appends a letter to serial numbers on guns they import. Most often I have seen a V added.

The end result is it has to be marked by the maker and contain all the required info.
 
I’ll let you use your googlefu. Remember, this is all about FFLs and not private parties relative to marking. It’s all in the CFRs and part of the interview/training you get when you become a 07 FFL. Marking is no joke.

I was asking honestly, but since you want to play that game: cite or STFU. You made the claim. Back it up. If you are correct, I will thank you for the information, but the packet received with the 07 FFL is not the same as is received with the 01, 02, 03, or 08 FFL.

Century Arms usually appends a letter to serial numbers on guns they import. Most often I have seen a V added.
Import markings and the required SN changes that resulted in the infamous CAI "CLAW O' DEATH" have nothing to do with manufacturing.
 
Marking is marking. The only question is what triggers it. I feel no need to prove anything. If you are a 01/02/08 than call your IOI and ask. He/she can quote you chapter and verse. I’ve got it in a file cabinet in my shop from my original atf “interview” so it’s a standard part of what they hand 07s.
 
This conversation brings back memories of my ATF nightmare when I submitted 2 virtually identical Form 1's and one was approved in 36 days while the other took 10 months, 3 revisions, a call to a supervisor, and a threat to get a lawyer involved before it was resolved. The nightmare part of the conversation went like this (FYI the issue was signatures required for a trust submission vs individual)

Me : I've done this before and that is not how it works. The instructions for page 3 are clear.
Supervisor : I can understand your confusion.
Me: I am not confused. The instructions state "(insert reading of instructions here)"
Supervisor : Yes I understand how that can confuse you.
Me : I'm not confused. It's written in English. The words have meaning and their meaning is crystal clear.
Supervisor : I'm not disagreeing however you have to understand that we give our agents leeway in allowing their individual interpretation of the rules. They are free to interpret them differently.
Me : So are you trying to tell me that your agent is free to change the definition of words in the English language?
Supervisor : Not exactly. What I'm telling you is that he is free to interpret the meaning of the rule based on his understanding regardless of what the written rule says.

Having dealt with contract negotiations with the Defense Department in the past I knew that I was going to be forced to comply eventually but it was maddening to deal with an individual whose only offering was "because I say so".
 
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My response is purely federal law based and has nothing to do with any state laws or definitions. It also has nothing to do with the current 80% receivers, receiver kits, etc. This is all very basic and clear and not muddled by current events or political crap.

Federally we have a taxonomy with Firearm covering everything. Firearms can be different types with the obvious ones being rifle and pistol. If you decompose a rifle you usually have an object that is still a firearm called a receiver. A pistol maybe be made from a frame or receiver. The key concept here is that if you have a functioning rifle or pistol (or anything else) and decompose it, there is always some basic element that is the firearm until you decompose too far.

So if you are holding a receiver which is a firearm and marked, serialized, etc, you have a federally regulated item. Let’s say for this discussion it is Anderson AM15 stripper ar15 lower. If you take this and complete the lower by putting in a LPK and buffer and stock you still have a receiver and therefore what you have done is “gunsmithing”. The object has not changed state as it was a receiver and still is a receiver.

Now you attach a complete upper. The object you are holding is now a rifle. This is a change in taxonomy from a receiver to a rifle. This constitutes manufacturing. With the exception of manufacturing that is decomposing, you must mark the item when manufacturing. This is a FFL requirement we are talking about. Any manufacture must mark what they make. So you would keep all the markings you can but the FFL must add business name and business city and state. They must also record this manufacturing in their bound book.

If you turn a rifle into a receiver, this too is manufacturing. It must be recorded in your bound book. Because you are decomposing an existing object, there are no marking requirements as long as the resulting object is properly marked.

All manufacturing requires a proper FFL, an 07 in this case.

As a private party you have no requirements to mark or record what you make. So when you put an upper on a lower while it constitutes manufacturing, there are no federal laws that require marking, licenses, etc UNLESS you are doing it for profit. Private manufacturing for personal use is fine. Manufacturing for profit or for someone else even if not for profit requires a license.

You can help your friend build an AR. You can turn the stripped lower into a complete lower. You can build a complete upper. You cannot put an upper on a lower for someone else. Sure, this is very unlikely to get caught or cared about, but it constitutes manufacturing and you cannot do this for someone else without a license.
Great post. Lots of info. I assume when you say “
Any manufacture must mark what they make. So you would keep all the markings you can but the FFL must add business name and business city and state.
Do you mean you have to engrave it with your FFL name etc?

Edit: never mind just read the rest of the thread. Yes.
 
My response is purely federal law based and has nothing to do with any state laws or definitions. It also has nothing to do with the current 80% receivers, receiver kits, etc. This is all very basic and clear and not muddled by current events or political crap.

Federally we have a taxonomy with Firearm covering everything. Firearms can be different types with the obvious ones being rifle and pistol. If you decompose a rifle you usually have an object that is still a firearm called a receiver. A pistol maybe be made from a frame or receiver. The key concept here is that if you have a functioning rifle or pistol (or anything else) and decompose it, there is always some basic element that is the firearm until you decompose too far.

So if you are holding a receiver which is a firearm and marked, serialized, etc, you have a federally regulated item. Let’s say for this discussion it is Anderson AM15 stripper ar15 lower. If you take this and complete the lower by putting in a LPK and buffer and stock you still have a receiver and therefore what you have done is “gunsmithing”. The object has not changed state as it was a receiver and still is a receiver.

Now you attach a complete upper. The object you are holding is now a rifle. This is a change in taxonomy from a receiver to a rifle. This constitutes manufacturing. With the exception of manufacturing that is decomposing, you must mark the item when manufacturing. This is a FFL requirement we are talking about. Any manufacture must mark what they make. So you would keep all the markings you can but the FFL must add business name and business city and state. They must also record this manufacturing in their bound book.

If you turn a rifle into a receiver, this too is manufacturing. It must be recorded in your bound book. Because you are decomposing an existing object, there are no marking requirements as long as the resulting object is properly marked.

All manufacturing requires a proper FFL, an 07 in this case.

As a private party you have no requirements to mark or record what you make. So when you put an upper on a lower while it constitutes manufacturing, there are no federal laws that require marking, licenses, etc UNLESS you are doing it for profit. Private manufacturing for personal use is fine. Manufacturing for profit or for someone else even if not for profit requires a license.

You can help your friend build an AR. You can turn the stripped lower into a complete lower. You can build a complete upper. You cannot put an upper on a lower for someone else. Sure, this is very unlikely to get caught or cared about, but it constitutes manufacturing and you cannot do this for someone else without a license.
Can a MA customer manufacture an existing rifle down to a frame, FFL intakes frame, transfer frame to new customer as a non-firearm in MA?
 
Great post. Lots of info. I assume when you say “

Do you mean you have to engrave it with your FFL name etc?

Edit: never mind just read the rest of the thread. Yes.
Yes, unless you have received a variance letter from the BATFE authorizing the use of your customers name if you are doing it as a subcontractor. This is how many "name brands" are able to have their own name on guns (commonly 1911's) even though a different FFL did he actual manufacture of the frame.
 
Can someone explain to me how the Girl who made a straw purchase is somehow the fault of the FFL
The woman was most likely given a free pass because she turned the shop in. In that case. If any employee heard her getting threatened. Then, they are guilty. If they didn't pay attention to the conversation at the counter. Him saying. I want this. Then, she comes back and buys it later. Then, guilty.

As for assembling firearms. The owner is an idiot. But, one part everyone over looked. This is in Flint Michigan. A real nice place to be. I avoided that place like Detroit.

If he wanted to sell the things he was selling. He should have used the gun as an example and just hand them the parts for the sale.
 
have they banned high capacity fuel tanks on personal (non law enforcement) trucks yet?
If you are asking a coded question they have been banned since 1994. 94-98 by Federal Law and then in 1998 MA politicians were smart enough to know that the Federal AWB was doomed so they passed a law extending it forever.
 
If you are asking a coded question they have been banned since 1994. 94-98 by Federal Law and then in 1998 MA politicians were smart enough to know that the Federal AWB was doomed so they passed a law extending it forever.
It was not a coded question. I'm finding out the 2a situation is worse and the gun situation sillier than I imagined for law abiding people (top-loading ARs, stripper clip through the ejection port, etc) in MA, so I thought I'd ask what other ridiculous laws exist
 
Can you provide any links that back this up? How does one "mark" an already marked firearm?
I think you are getting confused between commercial "in the business" manufacturing and joe blow making and marking a lower. The requirements on ffl's are different than you would typically be accustomed to.
 
Cheapskate that I am, I actually built an AR with an Anderson lower and Bear Creek upper. It runs fine. 🤷‍♂️
I was thinking of doing the same thing. Money is kind of tight right now and they have some lower priced uppers. Obviously not for competition shooting but as long as it can hit the target and is fairly reliable I don't care about names so much.
 
I was thinking of doing the same thing. Money is kind of tight right now and they have some lower priced uppers. Obviously not for competition shooting but as long as it can hit the target and is fairly reliable I don't care about names so much.
I’ve got two “tier one” ar’s. A ddm4a1 for me and a larue ultimate upper kit on a cmmg ambi lower for my wife.

I’ve got a s&w mp, the first ar i bought.

After that, they’re all mongrels - set up for different purposes. And they all function just fine.
 
One small update to my previous posts on marking. The regulations were tweaked back in late 2022. There is now a narrow exception to marking for FFLs. The FFL still needs to be a 07 and still needs to manufacture the item on their books from a receiver to a rifle, but there is now a case where no additional marking is required.

The rules used to be if you manufactured a receiver into a rifle (or any analogous case) then you had to mark the resulting rifle with your business name and location (Dean Safety, Littleton MA). You could adopt all the other markings (model, serial, caliber) but needed to put a makers mark on the rifle.

The rule change is that IF the receiver (or analogous object) was acquired from within the FFL bubble then you could adopt the existing maker marks. What is a "FFL bubble"? The key here is that the object has not been in commerce (sold/transferred to a non FFL) but has remained in the possession FFLs. This in practice translates to you acquired it from another FFL because you cant be held responsible for where that FFL got it, but you get the idea.

So as a 07 if I build a receiver into a rifle, I manufacture it on my books but I no longer need to mar the resulting rifle with my mark but can leave it as is. IF and only if I acquired the receiver from another FFL.

Personally this is very useful since I build out ARs from builder sets that are custom cerakote jobs but I could not previously attach lower to the upper without needing to mar it with my mark. Now I can do this with no issues.

I just found out about the updated regulation as part of the audit that occurred with all the FFLs at the mill. The single most useful thing that happened as part of the audit (from my perspective)
 
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