Ammunition Accountability?

In_God_We_Trust · Nov 15, 2008

The MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION AND the reason this FAILS

SO: I am a criminal with connections. What stops someone from taking out the extractor with Serial Number ABCDE and replacing it with VWXYZ. Then, they blast a bunch of people dead and sleep soundly because the person with Serial Number VWXYZ just awoken in the middle of the night with "the key to the city" and a bunch of SWAT people jumping all over them.

YEA, this is FOOLPROOF!

IMO: Any mechanical device that imprints a number or causes etchings is fraught with problems period.

Just ask how BLA worked for the FBI. [thinking]

This is a great 60 Minutes Show:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/16/60minutes/main3512453.shtml

I can see it now:

Yea, we all knew it was possible to forge imprinters.

calsdad · Nov 15, 2008

If this whole system works the way they claim it is supposed to - then it leaves gun owners completely open to random prosecution. There have been multiple times when I have gone to the range - when despite my best efforts, I could not find all the brass I expended. So all that would have to happen for somebody to implicate me in a crime - would be for me to go to the range, shoot some ammo, not find ALL of my brass , then have somebody else come along - pick up one of my pieces of brass - reload it, shoot somebody, and leave the brass behind ( or just dump the brass at the scene of the crime) - and WALA! - the police are at my door, with the serialized brass that is recorded in a database with MY name on it - and I am off to jail, most likely arrested for said murder - and probably forced into bankruptcy by the attendant legal costs.

Or I could steal somebody's credit card - buy ammo under their name, leave the brass behind at the scene of a crime - and WALA!, I have sent another innocent person off to jail.

To really see how obscene this whole proposal is you also have to have a good sense of how our "justice" system works - and see how easily abused this could be to railroad innocent people into jail for crimes they did not commit.

calsdad · Nov 15, 2008

The guy who runs Ammunition Coding System sounds like a jackass.

Listen to the NRA News interview:

http://www.mefeedia.com/entry/nrane...-systems-on-ammunition-serialization/7199648/

The guy talks about how ammunition should be produced to "higher than medical equipment quality" , "higher than space shuttle technology quality" if the ammunition is going to be used to defend his family.

That is a bullshit argument. I am sorry but ammunition - even of the highest quality - does not come close to approaching the high technology and precision that some medical technology and high technology requires.

These guys are also pushing hard thru lobbying to get laws passed to use their technology. The website for their lobbying effort is:

http://www.ammunitionaccountability.org/

In_God_We_Trust · Nov 15, 2008

calsdad said:
These guys are also pushing hard thru lobbying to get laws passed to use their technology. The website for their lobbying effort is:

http://www.ammunitionaccountability.org/

Correct. They are Anti-Gun Lobbying Whores.

gene · Nov 15, 2008

Correct. They are Anti-Gun Lobbying Whores.

Actually they are fking wack job losers with an agenda that only a complete arsehole can't see through.

In_God_We_Trust · Nov 15, 2008

calsdad · Nov 16, 2008

gene said:
Actually they are fking wack job losers with an agenda that only a complete arsehole can't see through.

All that means is that any bills proposed for using this technology will probably pass thru any legislature that votes on them - with a huge majority.

06LemansC6 · Nov 16, 2008

Feel free to use their contact page.....

http://www.ammocoding.com/contact.html

mikem317 · Nov 16, 2008

It sounds like it has the "benefits" and costs associated with firing pin microstamping.

codenamepaul · Nov 16, 2008

Somebody needs to burn that f***ing place to the ground.

Gonzo · Nov 16, 2008

calsdad said:
The guy who runs Ammunition Coding System sounds like a jackass.

Listen to the NRA News interview:

http://www.mefeedia.com/entry/nrane...-systems-on-ammunition-serialization/7199648/

The guy talks about how ammunition should be produced to "higher than medical equipment quality" , "higher than space shuttle technology quality" if the ammunition is going to be used to defend his family.

That is a bullshit argument. I am sorry but ammunition - even of the highest quality - does not come close to approaching the high technology and precision that some medical technology and high technology requires.

These guys are also pushing hard thru lobbying to get laws passed to use their technology. The website for their lobbying effort is:

http://www.ammunitionaccountability.org/

Firing a gun is just a really expensive way of throwing a rock. Space ship quality? I just need a bullet to go really fast into whatever I want to hit.

calsdad · Nov 16, 2008

codenamepaul said:
Somebody needs to burn that f***ing place to the ground.

I was thinking the same thing. To paraphrase Jim Belushi from "About last night" : ' what you need is an industrial accident'

namedpipes · Nov 16, 2008

I think I would rather see their technology debunked and sue them into bankruptcy.

Even if some of us here sometimes lose our tempers and say things that an outsider might misconstrue, I'm sure we can all agree on wishing them to fail.

John2 · Nov 16, 2008

Where are these mental giants going to get the money to do this. Haven't they noticed the financial crisis the country is in? Canadas registration process has cost over one billion, shown no value and they are ready to dump it. Now these bozzos want to do the same with ammunition. Talk about a non-cooperative citizenry. I'm suprized so many states have signed on. But then look who we just elected.

ephemeratta · Nov 16, 2008

John2 said:
Where are these mental giants going to get the money to do this.

From us.

clinotus · Nov 16, 2008

John2 said:
Where are these mental giants going to get the money to do this. Haven't they noticed the financial crisis the country is in? Canadas registration process has cost over one billion, shown no value and they are ready to dump it. Now these bozzos want to do the same with ammunition. Talk about a non-cooperative citizenry. I'm suprized so many states have signed on. But then look who we just elected.

Not only that, but when pressed ACS doesnt even know HOW they would get this done other than to note that the ammunition scientists are the brightest bunch in the world and those scientists and manufacturers should be the ones to figure out how to retool and hamstring their own product so that they (ACS) giant profits.

calsdad · Nov 16, 2008

John2 said:
Where are these mental giants going to get the money to do this. Haven't they noticed the financial crisis the country is in? Canadas registration process has cost over one billion, shown no value and they are ready to dump it. Now these bozzos want to do the same with ammunition. Talk about a non-cooperative citizenry. I'm suprized so many states have signed on. But then look who we just elected.

You guys keep making the mistake of assuming that common sense, legal issues - and lack of money, will prevent this from going thru.

When has that ever stopped them before?

BOBKATT · Nov 16, 2008

Good point. California has voted on bills that require guns to have technology that doesn't even exist yet.

LoginName · Nov 17, 2008

Rob Boudrie said:
How did you figure that out? The registration is hidden via domains by proxy.

There were several discussions about it awhile back on a few firearms related forums.

Here's one...

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/archive/index.php?t-122395.html

I don't recall if anyone had produced hard evidence to connect ACS with the ammoaccountabilty website, but, ACS has retained a lobbying firm...

(current clients page for GTH is "under construction", however, this link is from Feb 2008)

http://web.archive.org/web/20080213031848/http://www.gth-gov.com/clients.html

Besides... who else would have any interest or something to gain by creating that website (the Bradys/VPC/MMM would proudly display it on their own websites)?

calsdad · Nov 17, 2008

LoginName said:
There were several discussions about it awhile back on a few firearms related forums.

Here's one...

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/archive/index.php?t-122395.html

I don't recall if anyone had produced hard evidence to connect ACS with the ammoaccountabilty website, but, ACS has retained a lobbying firm...

(current clients page for GTH is "under construction", however, this link is from Feb 2008)

http://web.archive.org/web/20080213031848/http://www.gth-gov.com/clients.html

Besides... who else would have any interest or something to gain by creating that website (the Bradys/VPC/MMM would proudly display it on their own websites)?

Listen to the NRA interview that is linked to in some of the previous posts - during the course of the interview the NRA guy brings it up, and the ammo marking CEO admits that the websites are linked. They are trying to avoid people finding out they are linked on purpose (in my opinion) because the ammo marking technology will only be adopted if this guy can get somebody to ram legislation thru that mandates it.

If this guy was a real businessman he would develop his product, then do extensive testing (which he admits to NOT having done) - and then try to sell the technology. If he could not sell the technology - then he would go into the business of marking ammunition himself - and selling it. That is how somebody who has a real solution to a REAL problem - and was honest, would go about doing things. This guy is a douchebag. He is trying to make money off the backs of gun owners - and taxpayers - by putting marginal effort into a product - then spending a lot of effort trying to lobby legislators to pass laws that will mandate the use of the technology. That puts him squarely in the dishonest douchebag category as far as I am concerned.

The way the free market works is you develop a product and then try to sell it - if nobody wants it, guess what: you lose. The way government works is that somebody forces thru legislation that mandates the use of something without every stopping to consider whether the use of that thing is actually benefitting people. More often than not the laws that are written are really meant to benefit one person - or one group of people, at the expense of a lot of other people.

Free market = cooperation

government = screw you I will take what I want and there is nothing you can do about it.

This guy is a douche because his initial instinct is force this technology down our throats thru coercive action. I hope he rots in hell - he is an immoral prick.

Ammunition Accountability?

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