American Holoptics buys EOTech from L3Harris

[mav]

I hate eotechs, it's like shooting with a dream catcher as your RDS.

To each his/her own. After years with an aimpoint, got tired of the blob. Simple sure, works fine for close shooting. Switch to 3x mag and red blob covered target.

65MOA circle fine for close targeting while 1 MOA center dot good under magnification. Have the 4 dot version which provides bullet drop for various ranges. Again, flexibility vs simplicity, but in this case, I actually agree that a simple red dot doesn’t provide much more than irons at quite a premium. So eotech...

 

[mav]

Yes, I think they are awesome as far as optics go. Not slamming EOTechs at all, just expressing a difference in philosophy for self defense. I'm in the 'if it can break, it will' camp. Also for self defense I don't like anything that relies on batteries.

Which is why we have irons that co-witness, just in case. Flip up HK style works great.

 

[Mountain]

Which is why we have irons that co-witness, just in case. Flip up HK style works great.

Sure, that works. Will you have time to flip the sights up?

Aside from that, I get that for someone with service experience it likely makes the most sense to use for home defense a configuration most similar to what you have trained with, over and over. Total side comment but related: The CMP is loaded with ex mil competitors and one of the reasons that High Power and Modern Military matches allow(ed) optics is that ex service people were accustomed to optics. Also to be a benefit to older eyes, ahem. Too many whiners in the Modern Military match, so CMP reverted to irons only (after we all spent money on quality optics) but High Power still allows optics up to 4.5X.

For most of us, I'm going to continue to assert that irons are going to be as effective plus have a chance of failure much, much closer to zero. Wanna dot? Use a fiber optic front sight or use tritium sights- no batteries to be dead when you need them most.

 

[E.Stoner]

Yes, I think they are awesome as far as optics go. Not slamming EOTechs at all, just expressing a difference in philosophy for self defense. I'm in the 'if it can break, it will' camp. Also for self defense I don't like anything that relies on batteries.

I have three eotechs EXPS-3 and they are excellent. Great for fast shooting and if you are using NODS the donut is pretty great. Battery life is not great, but if I was using it as a fighting gun I would just pop a new battery in every couple of months.
For all my fighting rifles I am all Aimpoint all day (T-2/CompM5). They are tanks, and as bombproof as it gets: very lightweight, simple and the battery life is bananas. They are good for (2-3 years) but I still change my batteries on three fighting rifles twice a year.
Irons are great, but unless you are in the jungle, optics are better in every other situation. As far as I am concerned what is good for combat and good for competition is good for self-defense.
EVERYTHING can break (that includes iron sights) and can get jacked up six ways from sunday so back up irons are always a must for a fighting rifle. I don't buy any of the arguments against the use optics on fighting rifles (or handguns), they are more effective in almost every situation. I would only argue against using shitty optics.

 

[drgrant]

I realize all may not agree but I feel the same way for a self defense carbine. For rifles I may be on the extreme end here, but if my life depended on it and I never had to shoot more than 100 yards? Iron sights on a rifle as well.

It's much faster (for me) to pick up a dot on something like my Aimpoint Pro and hit something even at relatively close range, especially if you don't already have the carbine at the ready.

I'm basically pissed at myself that I didn't buy one of those things a decade before I ended up doing it...

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

I'm in the 'if it can break, it will' camp. Also for self defense I don't like anything that relies on batteries.

The good shit doesn't break that easy. if it breaks whatever broke it probably just crushed you, too. Also aimpoint batteries last literally for years. Some guys will even leave the dot on in their safe and just change the battery once in awhile. Even the CompM2 (which has been out forever) will run for at least a year on one battery.

I hate shit that depends on batteries, too, but a lot of Aimpoints don't piss me off because you get a shitload of life out of the
battery.

 

[weekendracer]

Missing the point. For close quarters self defense, why use an optic at all? Yeah, for long distance shooting get a high quality optic and don't skinflint. Putting an optic on a self defense pistol is idiotic. I realize all may not agree but I feel the same way for a self defense carbine. For rifles I may be on the extreme end here, but if my life depended on it and I never had to shoot more than 100 yards? Iron sights on a rifle as well.

But the military uses optics! Yes, and with great success but that doesn't apply to personal and home self defense.

I'd love to have a Tavor and yeah- why go cheap on the optic. I think a Tavor would be excellent for home defense, and I wouldn't put an optic on it for that. Maybe a tritium front post.

If they didn't work, why do all the professional shooters use them? From target shooters to .mil to LEO's. They are fast, you can hand it to someone with no experience at all and say "Put the dot on the guys chest and pull the trigger". My wife loves my red dot. Um..yeah, on the rifle.

The good shit doesn't break that easy. if it breaks whatever broke it probably just crushed you, too. Also aimpoint batteries last literally for years. Some guys will even leave the dot on in their safe and just change the battery once in awhile. Even the CompM2 (which has been out forever) will run for at least a year on one battery.

I hate shit that depends on batteries, too, but a lot of Aimpoints don't piss me off because you get a shitload of life out of the
battery.

I forget which optic were on the guns when I was at training, but they just left them on. Told us to change the batteries every so often. In the field, we turn them off, turn them on when you check out the gun. I wish more of them would transition to AAA or AA batteries. My old Aimpoint uses a wierd 3v battery that you pretty much have to order.

 

[drgrant]

I forget which optic were on the guns when I was at training, but they just left them on. Told us to change the batteries every so often.

If it was an Aimpoint I'm betting its the M68 or CompM2 as its called on the commercial side.

In the field, we turn them off, turn them on when you check out the gun. I wish more of them would transition to AAA or AA batteries. My old Aimpoint uses a wierd 3v battery that you pretty much have to order.

Yeah its the 1/3rd N, which is really f***ing weird, the Pro uses this too. What I do is buy like 2 batteries at
once. If they're lithium, they dont go bad. Then in a couple years or whenver you decide to swap it, you already have a
spare on hand... and thats your cue to order another 2 batteries. the CompM4 uses a AA I think. (and lasts even
longer!)

-Mike

 

[Mountain]

If they didn't work, why do all the professional shooters use them? From target shooters to .mil to LEO's. They are fast, you can hand it to someone with no experience at all and say "Put the dot on the guys chest and pull the trigger". My wife loves my red dot. Um..yeah, on the rifle.



I forget which optic were on the guns when I was at training, but they just left them on. Told us to change the batteries every so often. In the field, we turn them off, turn them on when you check out the gun. I wish more of them would transition to AAA or AA batteries. My old Aimpoint uses a wierd 3v battery that you pretty much have to order.

Trying to convince me and griping about the weird batteries in the same post? And why do pros use stuff? Umm, because they are paid to?

I'm strictly talking about home defense & self defense. Targets, mil, and LEO different animals. I can see a dot being handy for home defense- but not my cup of tea to overcomplicate point and shoot at very close quarters. EDC? Who carries with an optic?

All fun bantering about this stuff. I'd love to put an optic on my G35-ish. 'Ish' because I'm using a Storm Lake 9mm conversion barrel, which adds a little weight and improves accuracy.

A parting shot- If optics are so great then why doesn't John Wick have one on his Glock?

 

[weekendracer]

Trying to convince me and griping about the weird batteries in the same post? And why do pros use stuff? Umm, because they are paid to?

I'm strictly talking about home defense & self defense. Targets, mil, and LEO different animals. I can see a dot being handy for home defense- but not my cup of tea to overcomplicate point and shoot at very close quarters. EDC? Who carries with an optic?

All fun bantering about this stuff. I'd love to put an optic on my G35-ish. 'Ish' because I'm using a Storm Lake 9mm conversion barrel, which adds a little weight and improves accuracy.

A parting shot- If optics are so great then why doesn't John Wick have one on his Glock?

Because, he only shoots at 2 feet away because he's JW.

I'm not a fan of optics on pistols, admittedly it's simply something I haven't trained, and the distances are bad breath range.

As for batteries, yeah, I had to change wonky batteries after 5 or so years of it sitting in a safe. To turn on my Aimpoint, you roll your finger over the dohickey and it's on. How can something so simple not be effective?

As with everything, you be you. It does not effect me. But at least be honest. Good with irons equates to great with an optic.

 

[M60]

I use flip up tritium iron sights with my dot eothech. If it goes bad I'll just hit the quick release and let the eotech fall off. Flip up the iron sights and I can see them day or night. I'll worry about the dropped eotech after the fights over.

 

[Mountain]

I use flip up tritium iron sights with my dot eothech. If it goes bad I'll just hit the quick release and let the eotech fall off. Flip up the iron sights and I can see them day or night. I'll worry about the dropped eotech after the fights over.

I assume I won't have time to mess with any 'buttons' but the the one that counts. That's because I need some time to rack one into the pipe.

edit-

OK, sh!t disturbing aside, serious question and not further trolling:

What are the self defense and home defense scenarios that would benefit from an optic? My few experiences don't seem to favor one though in all cases I had a handgun.

• In my younger days, first night at my first apartment, I had to 'greet' a forced entry. Once the door opened, basically bad breath distance and the 3 guys hauled ass once they saw the .357.
• In my 30's a road rage incident with 4 Deliverance-looking hillbillies. Same .357 defused the situation and they split. 10' distance?
• Couple years ago a massive ~450 lb bear with his nose against the screen door, thinking about coming in. All I cared to do was shoo him away, which with a little extra effort was successful. 45 Sig EDC in case the bear wanted to be an @sshole and try to eat me. Distance 3 to 6 feet.

If there's a realistic scenario where an optic could make a tangible difference, I'm open to trying one for something other than my current range toy use.

 

[Da_lucche]

Because, he only shoots at 2 feet away because he's JW.

I'm not a fan of optics on pistols, admittedly it's simply something I haven't trained, and the distances are bad breath range.

As for batteries, yeah, I had to change wonky batteries after 5 or so years of it sitting in a safe. To turn on my Aimpoint, you roll your finger over the dohickey and it's on. How can something so simple not be effective?

As with everything, you be you. It does not effect me. But at least be honest. Good with irons equates to great with an optic.

I absolutely detest pistol shooting but I know I have no choice not to have a pistol because of reasonable every day carry.

So having an rmr on my g19 allows me the ability of hitting more shit with it without needing to be the most proficient handgun shooter out there.

 

[M60]

With a red dot you shoot with both eyes open. Fast acquisition. Wider field of view. Quicker engagement. Quicker resolution to the problem.

 

[weekendracer]

I absolutely detest pistol shooting but I know I have no choice not to have a pistol because of reasonable every day carry.

So having an rmr on my g19 allows me the ability of hitting more shit with it without needing to be the most proficient handgun shooter out there.

I shot my first pistol red dot the other day. I'll admit it takes some getting used to after shooting optics on M4's and ARs. Even full auto inside 20 yards I can keep the dot on center mass(ish, 'good enough').

Shooting a buddies 9mm competition type gun (I think it was a Canik?), it takes more muscle memory to get the 'dot' back on target if you aren't used to it. It's also distracting because you can see every movement as your hands shake. But, big BUT, good lord the groups we were shooting when we took our time. We were shooting at the 'shadow silhouette' in the corner of our targets from 10 yards. Made it disappear. Once you develop the muscle memory to reset from recoil, I'm more than willing to sign off on red dots on pistols as a useful tool, especially for first round hits. I don't recall the make/model of his red dot, so they might all be different in that aspect. Before someone jumps all 'tole ya so', just remember how long it takes to get good with iron sights on a pistol. By 'good', I mean sub-5 inch groups at 25 yards.

My 'home defense' gun is my 300 BO 'pistol' now. So go with what you know.

Edit: went and looked it up, the Canik tp9sfx is what it looked like, his has a red dot on it. Looks like a pretty cheap gun in the general scope of things. It shot well enough. Had a couple F2Fires, but the gun was right out of the box and was tight/took some effort to work the slide. Thinking the resistance was stopping it from going fully into lock/battery.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

I assume I won't have time to mess with any 'buttons' but the the one that counts. That's because I need some time to rack one into the pipe.

edit-

OK, sh!t disturbing aside, serious question and not further trolling:

What are the self defense and home defense scenarios that would benefit from an optic? My few experiences don't seem to favor one though in all cases I had a handgun.

• In my younger days, first night at my first apartment, I had to 'greet' a forced entry. Once the door opened, basically bad breath distance and the 3 guys hauled ass once they saw the .357.
• In my 30's a road rage incident with 4 Deliverance-looking hillbillies. Same .357 defused the situation and they split. 10' distance?
• Couple years ago a massive ~450 lb bear with his nose against the screen door, thinking about coming in. All I cared to do was shoo him away, which with a little extra effort was successful. 45 Sig EDC in case the bear wanted to be an @sshole and try to eat me. Distance 3 to 6 feet.

If there's a realistic scenario where an optic could make a tangible difference, I'm open to trying one for something other than my current range toy use.

Most people train to focus on the front sight while shooting irons, which works really well for the square range.
Then when they find themselves in a shoot out, they are attempting to point shoot by focusing on the target and pointing the gun at the bad guy, which they may or may not have done before, but they are probably not very proficient at, so they tend to miss. Most if not all people are threat focused in a gun fight, not front sight focused.

The great thing about red dot optics is they allow you to focus on the 3 guys, 4 deliverance looking hillbillies and the 450 pound bear instead of trying to focusing on the front sight.

You can train to point shoot in a similar manner without a red dot, but the same amount of training with a red dot will get you far more accurate at further distances.

guys like us who have been focusing on the front sight our whole lives will not be instantly better or faster with a red dot when we start using one.
We have to retrain ourselves not to simply focus on the red dot likes we do with the front sight. we have to train ourselves to target focus with both eyes open and let the dot appear over the target.

Beginners who first learn to shoot with a red dot pick it up a lot quicker.

You can do any kind of shooting with a red dot, but they really shine in CQB/self defense distances at moving targets that are threatening you.

This is true for red dots an rifles and pistols.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

It's also distracting because you can see every movement as your hands shake.

Your iron front sight is moving that much as well, you just cant see it.
More practice red dot pistol shooting makes you better at holding the red dot and pistol steady, so you end up being a better shot with Irons as well.

 

[weekendracer]

Your iron front sight is moving that much as well, you just cant see it.
More practice red dot pistol shooting makes you better at holding the red dot and pistol steady, so you end up being a better shot with Irons as well.

That was my point, you can actually see the dot dancing vs slight movement of the front sight. Same fundamentals apply though, just let it dance like no one is watching.

 

[Mountain]

Most people train to focus on the front sight while shooting irons, which works really well for the square range.
Then when they find themselves in a shoot out, they are attempting to point shoot by focusing on the target and pointing the gun at the bad guy, which they may or may not have done before, but they are probably not very proficient at, so they tend to miss. Most if not all people are threat focused in a gun fight, not front sight focused.

The great thing about red dot optics is they allow you to focus on the 3 guys, 4 deliverance looking hillbillies and the 450 pound bear instead of trying to focusing on the front sight.

You can train to point shoot in a similar manner without a red dot, but the same amount of training with a red dot will get you far more accurate at further distances.

guys like us who have been focusing on the front sight our whole lives will not be instantly better or faster with a red dot when we start using one.
We have to retrain ourselves not to simply focus on the red dot likes we do with the front sight. we have to train ourselves to target focus with both eyes open and let the dot appear over the target.

Beginners who first learn to shoot with a red dot pick it up a lot quicker.

You can do any kind of shooting with a red dot, but they really shine in CQB/self defense distances at moving targets that are threatening you.

This is true for red dots an rifles and pistols.

Moving target I can understand- benefit of a dot makes sense. Also I put a green dot on my wife's mid length AR, knowing it would be easier for her and that we'd be shooting 25-50 yards most of the time. The 'in your face' distances I've encountered- car load of hillbillies might have benefitted.

Another topic, but eventually I'd like to either bite the bullet and jump through the hoops for a SBR or set up one of the high cap shotguns. Open to checking out a red dot for the SBR.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

Moving target I can understand- benefit of a dot makes sense. Also I put a green dot on my wife's mid length AR, knowing it would be easier for her and that we'd be shooting 25-50 yards most of the time. The 'in your face' distances I've encountered- car load of hillbillies might have benefitted.

Another topic, but eventually I'd like to either bite the bullet and jump through the hoops for a SBR or set up one of the high cap shotguns. Open to checking out a red dot for the SBR.

My choice for home defense is a 10.5 SBR with an aimpoint pro.

 

[weekendracer]

My choice for home defense is a 10.5 SBR with an aimpoint pro.

I was going to say, just get a 'pistol', but then I remembered where you live. I've been caught talking out my mule lately because I forget that.

I went 300 with my 'pistol'. Mainly I figured it'd be moving slower than typical .556 and the 30 cal round should carry more energy at the slower velocity. The 'proverbial' stopping power argument.

Now, I'll sit back and let someone who knows tell me if I'm right or not...

 

[Cap'n Mike]

I was going to say, just get a 'pistol', but then I remembered where you live. I've been caught talking out my mule lately because I forget that.

I went 300 with my 'pistol'. Mainly I figured it'd be moving slower than typical .556 and the 30 cal round should carry more energy at the slower velocity. The 'proverbial' stopping power argument.

Now, I'll sit back and let someone who knows tell me if I'm right or not...

If I could legally own a suppressor in this god forsaken place, that would push me toward a shorter barrel and 300BO.

 

[Mountain]

I was going to say, just get a 'pistol', but then I remembered where you live. I've been caught talking out my mule lately because I forget that.

I went 300 with my 'pistol'. Mainly I figured it'd be moving slower than typical .556 and the 30 cal round should carry more energy at the slower velocity. The 'proverbial' stopping power argument.

Now, I'll sit back and let someone who knows tell me if I'm right or not...

Few years back I built a .458 that would provide some pretty impressive stopping power. Props to the cheap Sightmark green dot as it has held up to years of handling the .458. With 325 HP's it expands like crazy and would be unlikely to keep passing through stuff it shouldn't. The round count per standard mag isn't great- 10 in a 30. Are there any projectiles for the 300 that would feed well yet have awesome expansion?

Here's a Hornady .458 325 HP that hit a wet sand berm at 45 degrees:

 

[weekendracer]

Few years back I built a .458 that would provide some pretty impressive stopping power. Props to the cheap Sightmark green dot as it has held up to years of handling the .458. With 325 HP's it expands like crazy and would be unlikely to keep passing through stuff it shouldn't. The round count per standard mag isn't great- 10 in a 30. Are there any projectiles for the 300 that would feed well yet have awesome expansion?

Here's a Hornady .458 325 HP that hit a wet sand berm at 45 degrees:

Both of those qualities actually fit the bill nicely. The chances of needing more than 10 are pretty slim, carry another mag on the stock .

I'd have to put 3 or 4 rounds down range to equal that amount of 'oomph'. But I'd be putting it in different places .

BLACKHAWK! Stock Mag Pouch AR-15 Rifle Stock Nylon Black

Black nylon magazine holder for the AR-15. Lid is fully adjustable and holds 20 or 30-round magazines. Attaches to the stock by adjustable straps and an...

www.midwayusa.com

I can't keep track if Midway is on the 'banned' list or not this week. But something like that gives you 20 big old boolits on your rig.

 

[Mountain]

Both of those qualities actually fit the bill nicely. The chances of needing more than 10 are pretty slim, carry another mag on the stock .

I'd have to put 3 or 4 rounds down range to equal that amount of 'oomph'. But I'd be putting it in different places .

BLACKHAWK! Stock Mag Pouch AR-15 Rifle Stock Nylon Black

Black nylon magazine holder for the AR-15. Lid is fully adjustable and holds 20 or 30-round magazines. Attaches to the stock by adjustable straps and an...

www.midwayusa.com

I can't keep track if Midway is on the 'banned' list or not this week. But something like that gives you 20 big old boolits on your rig.

Great idea. The .458 is ridiculous fun at the range and back in the pumpkin shoot days would turn medium and smaller pumpkins to sauce. Tore the crap out of the cars too. Ultralight .458 SBR with an Aimpoint?