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America can't abandon 27 million Iraqis to 10,000 terrorists
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SnakeEye
Banned
but you see, in order for that argument to have any validity for me i would need to give a shit about the Iraqi people in the first place. All i know is domestic policy and economics here in the US have gone to absolute pot in the wake of this mission in search of a reason.
if they cant fight for freedom themselves they dont deserve it. Plain and simple end of discussion.
The administration should be focused solely and intently inwards to fix our own country before freedom slips any further away here on our own soil and our quality of life degrades any further..
The only valid reason for not to pulling out now that holds any weight for me is to not disgrace the honor of those that have fallen already and what they gave their lives for.. anything other than that is politics, and i dont think we shoule be so casually throwing lives into the crucible of political agenda for a cause that doesnt exist..
SnakeEye said:
Do you feel that way about the Jews in Europe in the late 1930s? Or maybe about the resistance in France, Holland or even in Germany during Hitler's occupation of Europe? How about the Kurds under Saddam? Perhaps the Koreans under Japanese rule? What about the 1.2 million Cambodians who perished under the Khmer Rouge? Oh, wait, we had to sit on the sidelines for that one because we had just bugged out of the region after chickenshit leftists had successfully made the very argument you're making.
Let's start by teaching our populace about spelling and punctuation.
![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
dwarven1
Lonely Mountain Arms
Well, I sent it to my cousin as well. The one who served in WWII. Who's g'g'grandfather served in the Civil War.
Ira's eyes do NOT need opening. But I thought he'd like to see it, also.
Ira's eyes do NOT need opening. But I thought he'd like to see it, also.
Chris
NES Member
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And lets not forget that our own American revolution would likely never have succeeded if France had not supported and supplied us during the fight.
Whatever you want to say about the French today, lets not forget that we owe a bit to them for our freedom.
Whatever you want to say about the French today, lets not forget that we owe a bit to them for our freedom.
The best thing is, it's not another ultra-Conservative, it's a Democrat that's credible, for a change.
I stop short of calling Lieberman a Liberal. He's not what I consider Pro-Gun, but, at least, he's not Un-American, like the prominent Dem's (Klinton/Kerry/Kennedy/Boxer/Pelosi, etc) are.
If this gets out, it's not good for the Anti-War crowd. Like the Anti-Gun folks, they don't like the truth.
And yes, the best hope for stopping Radical Islam is defeat of Al Queda in Iraq. They lose there, and they lose a LOT of credibility. And other countries will start getting the message.
SnakeEye, I suggest looking into the objectives of Radical Islam. They're a real eye opener.
I stop short of calling Lieberman a Liberal. He's not what I consider Pro-Gun, but, at least, he's not Un-American, like the prominent Dem's (Klinton/Kerry/Kennedy/Boxer/Pelosi, etc) are.
If this gets out, it's not good for the Anti-War crowd. Like the Anti-Gun folks, they don't like the truth.
And yes, the best hope for stopping Radical Islam is defeat of Al Queda in Iraq. They lose there, and they lose a LOT of credibility. And other countries will start getting the message.
SnakeEye, I suggest looking into the objectives of Radical Islam. They're a real eye opener.
SnakeEye
Banned
dont equate my national selfishness and lack of compassion for leftism..
My opinions are no ones but my own and originate from my "i dont give a shit about anyone but the USA" attitude.
I dont give two turds about the iraqi people, plain and simple, all i care about is good ol number 1 USA. and thats as deep as it goes and as non political as you can get.
terrorism cant be fought by means of conventional ground warfare, hell we give the terrorist warning before we move in because their entrenched in residential areas.theres no fronts to a terrorist war, they dont wear uniforms or form a skirmish line.
im all for wiping radical islam off the face of the earth, but lets at least say thats what it is and not sugar coat it with this "helping the poor iraqi people" BS.
they dont want freedom, the very core of their religion forbids the principals of democracy and a monetary system.
Their history outdates ours by thousands of years, if they havent managed to get thier shit together and come out of the dark ages in that long a stretch then they were never meant to and nothing we do is going to change it.
SnakeEye said:
Been there?
I disagree with your view, and I get my info from several folks that have BTDT. One of them posts here, Tank. Another is my son.
I think the Iraqi's WANT freedom and democracy. They damned sure are smart not to trust the US, either. We don't have a good track record of "seeing the job through", even when it's in our best interests. If we keep what we're doing now, we will prevail, and regenerate trust. If we "cut and run", we cease to be trusted in the world, and become an easy target for the future.
Remember, the Terrorists attacked the US in 2001 because they "knew" we would only mount a lame response, since we always only mounted a lame response before. They misjudged the current administration.
And the best way to defeat terrorism/radical Islam is to make it unpopular. Any movement like Radical Islam needs support from people. Take that support away, and it dies.
That's HOW we lost in Vietnam, the North did everything they could to generate support from the Vietnamese people. The South and the US, did not. We could have NEVER won in Vietnam, short of killing most of the Vietnamese people.
In case those who think they Iraqi's aren't fighting for their freedom missed it over the past numerous weeks.... Yes, we're still loosing our boys, but the MAJORITY of deaths that are occuring are Iraqi, not coalition troops.
They are fighting for their freedom...something those under the age of 25 have never known.
They are fighting for their freedom...something those under the age of 25 have never known.
SnakeEye
Banned
ill be the first to admit that all my info comes from unreliable sources, television, and internet. So what i dont know,or what i think i know that in actuallity isnt true im sure could probobly fill novels.
SnakeEye said:
That's the main problem right now Rich, all the mis-information being spewed out. The media has an agenda, and that agenda is to make what ever the president stands for look as bad as possible.
SnakeEye said:
Consider yourself forgiven. TV News has gotten awfully biased when it comes to Iraq.
I suggest sitting down ands asking some veterans from the OIF, especially ones that have been there during the last year and a half. You can PM Tank, and ask him, he may be slow responding, since he's on his way back from Kuwait soon, but, he'll tell it like he see's it. SgtUSMC8541 would be another good source of info, I think. He seems well informed anyways. As to me, all my info is at best 2nd hand info, though from reliable sources.
My info is from when I was there during the inital invasion. March 2003 to Nov 2003 in southern Iraq. Al Naz.
That and second hand from some of my Plt who went back for a second time. I will do my best to answer any questions anyone might have.
That and second hand from some of my Plt who went back for a second time. I will do my best to answer any questions anyone might have.
SgtUSMC8541 said:
Thanks, Sgt. I assume that you're still "in the loop" for information about what's going on, yes?
HAVE things gotten better over there than back in 03'? Feel free to give as long an answer as you deem appropriate.
Ok, here is my overview of the situation right now. This is only my opinion, so it’s worth about what you paid for it.
When we got there in early 2003, 90% of the locals were ecstatic to see us. The remaining 10% seem to be split into three groups. One is made up of those who lost power. They were mad, and striking back against us, and those who supported us, was their best plan to regain power. Many of the mid to high ranking leaders owned homes in the country. The ground war was so quick and decisive that it took time for them to get back into the cities and “rally” the locals to start fighting back. The next group is made up of just plain patriotic Iraqis. These are the guys that no matter how screwed up their government was, they wanted Iraqis to be the ones to take care of it. (These guys all have had some military training and generally will fight in their local area so they know the ground well) I can respect that. How would we feel if everyone wanted to overthrow us? Some would welcome it and many would fight back. The last and smallest group is the just plane a**h***. These are the idiots that take advantage of the initial lack of police and military to cause problems. Now that the police and law enforcement has be restored, they have been replaced by a new batch of a**h***s. These come from other countries to wage war on “The Great Satan”. Many of these men have some military type training as well as the ability to easily blend into the local population.
Now look at your state. Look at the members of this site. How many here have military training? Every one of us knows firearms. Do you really think it would be hard for us to cause a large amount of havoc in a war torn country? I live in NY. In a four day time period I could hit NYC, Albany and then Buffalo. It would look like the entire state was in turmoil, but no, it was just me. Now just 5% of the population of Iraq may be pissed and willing to kill. Throw a few hundred from other countries in and you have a very mobile, well hidden force.
As time goes on, and I do believe that in 3 years we will be out. Except for a small force of say 5,000 or so. Iraq has had a “government” since 3000 - 2350 BC. These people know what a government is for but it will take a bit of time. To over simplify it, their government has been based on power. Ok, I can beat you up so I will be mayor. I will then get the weak, smart guy to work for me or I kill him and his family. They need some time to learn not just how to spell democracy but what it really means. That they can vote for the smart guy and not get beaten up.
In the latest polls, more that 80% of the Iraqi people think that their lives are better now and will be even better this time next year. With that being said, if asked, yes they would like our troops out. But if asked they would also like their own military and Police to be able to do the job and they can’t yet. As they get spun up, we will lower our numbers there. The Marine Reseve cas already cut it's numbers by 1/2.
When we got there in early 2003, 90% of the locals were ecstatic to see us. The remaining 10% seem to be split into three groups. One is made up of those who lost power. They were mad, and striking back against us, and those who supported us, was their best plan to regain power. Many of the mid to high ranking leaders owned homes in the country. The ground war was so quick and decisive that it took time for them to get back into the cities and “rally” the locals to start fighting back. The next group is made up of just plain patriotic Iraqis. These are the guys that no matter how screwed up their government was, they wanted Iraqis to be the ones to take care of it. (These guys all have had some military training and generally will fight in their local area so they know the ground well) I can respect that. How would we feel if everyone wanted to overthrow us? Some would welcome it and many would fight back. The last and smallest group is the just plane a**h***. These are the idiots that take advantage of the initial lack of police and military to cause problems. Now that the police and law enforcement has be restored, they have been replaced by a new batch of a**h***s. These come from other countries to wage war on “The Great Satan”. Many of these men have some military type training as well as the ability to easily blend into the local population.
Now look at your state. Look at the members of this site. How many here have military training? Every one of us knows firearms. Do you really think it would be hard for us to cause a large amount of havoc in a war torn country? I live in NY. In a four day time period I could hit NYC, Albany and then Buffalo. It would look like the entire state was in turmoil, but no, it was just me. Now just 5% of the population of Iraq may be pissed and willing to kill. Throw a few hundred from other countries in and you have a very mobile, well hidden force.
As time goes on, and I do believe that in 3 years we will be out. Except for a small force of say 5,000 or so. Iraq has had a “government” since 3000 - 2350 BC. These people know what a government is for but it will take a bit of time. To over simplify it, their government has been based on power. Ok, I can beat you up so I will be mayor. I will then get the weak, smart guy to work for me or I kill him and his family. They need some time to learn not just how to spell democracy but what it really means. That they can vote for the smart guy and not get beaten up.
In the latest polls, more that 80% of the Iraqi people think that their lives are better now and will be even better this time next year. With that being said, if asked, yes they would like our troops out. But if asked they would also like their own military and Police to be able to do the job and they can’t yet. As they get spun up, we will lower our numbers there. The Marine Reseve cas already cut it's numbers by 1/2.
SnakeEye
Banned
Lynne said:Thanks Sgt. - that's kind of what I thought, but it's nice to see it from someone who was there.
indeed, Bush would do well to have people in uniform try and explain the situation to people instead of having him himself mumbling his way thru a speach full of half completed sentences, catchphrases and broken engrish.
no wonder no one understands, hes one of the worst speakers in presidential history. which is odd because when you watch footage from his old small fry political days he was quite the speaker.
they need someone who "speaks to the people" to speak to the people. he just rubs too many people the wrong way to get a point across to the masses.
The Iraqi people keep coming out for each election,even under threats of violence and death. Which show they want democracy as much as we do. We have been turning more and more power over to the Iraqi police and military. It isn't going to happen overnight. Imagine sending hundreds of thousands through training,basic etc. you can only work so fast and with so many at once. I give the Iraqi people alot of credit for wanting to do these jobs,even though they have been getting killed right and left as they stand in line, but they will be there the next day. I will take my sources as the ones who are there, been there,along with some of the mil. blogs. Main stream media has an agenda and none of its good.
Thanks Sgt. for enlightening some here.
Thanks Sgt. for enlightening some here.
I know they do Ross, just trying to make a point. I think we need to make a thread for mil. blogs for people to read,that have no idea,so they can actually see how bad the Iraqi people want this. There is so much good going on over there,and none of it gets reported here on our media. really tees me off.
