Active shooter Training in Ma schools

[GPP]

Hey after all you could put an eye out.

Principals used to be leaders, educators, and managers.
What is it exactly they do now if they cant control kids with elastics.

Seriously, how are you not embarrassed to place a call like that in the first place? ****ing elastic bands? And the principal couldn't deter that ( not to mention the actual teacher first)? I'm dumbfounded.

 

[Hush]

Next time there is a hurricane, I think all those folks on the Cape should shelter in place. Evacuating the area of danger makes no sense.

Exactly. Its denial of evil human behavior. Schools have effective plans in place to deal with fire, flood, or tornado. But someone with a gun, and all common sense is lost.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Of course they could be held civilly liable, you can sue someone or something for just about anything civilly. But I'd rather my kid throw a chair thru a window ( excellent advice mclina) and get out of there as opposed to THE BEREAVED PARENTS suing the powers that be.

FIFY

Obviously nobody from the OP's PD attended LTC Dave Grossman's "Bulletproof Mind" Seminar back last Summer!

 

[Sax1031]

• "If they are able to disarm the shooter to place the weapon under a trashcan, sit on the trashcan, and state "I have the gun""

are you kidding me?

no you don't have the gun. you are sitting on it with no ability at all to use it.

 

[noxin]

my daughter has instructions to vacate the school immediately. I will deal with whomever tries to give her shit afterwards.

If she can't vacate, she's to organize whomever is with her and prepare to attack whomever comes into the area.

screw the shelter in place bullshit.

 

[dcmdon]

Lets take a step back here and look at real threats.

Your kid is more likely to die in a car wreck with a friend. Much more likely.
Your kid is more likely to die in some kind of violence outside of school than at school

The simple fact is that these things are EXCEEDINGLY rare. The difference is that now the news latches onto every event and goes on and one and on about it.

 

[Apathesis]

A Winchendon, MA elementary school principal called the police to come to the school yesterday because kids were shooting elastics in the classroom. Principals are done nutting up its a shame. What's even worse is how much the cities and towns ( in MA anyways) are paying to have the security in their schools checked out by consultants ( most of which are a group of local LE that formed a company to do this), and then these same guys are preaching this ALICE retardedness.

You've got to be kidding.

I'm so disgusted with this state.

 

[Garden12]

Lets take a step back here and look at real threats.

Your kid is more likely to die in a car wreck with a friend. Much more likely.
Your kid is more likely to die in some kind of violence outside of school than at school

The simple fact is that these things are EXCEEDINGLY rare. The difference is that now the news latches onto every event and goes on and one and on about it.

Yep. I posted this in another thread a few weeks ago, but I'll post it here again because of the context.

Grant Duwe, a criminologist with the Minnesota Department of Corrections who has written a history of mass murders in America, said that while mass shootings rose between the 1960s and the 1990s, they actually dropped in the 2000s. And mass killings actually reached their peak in 1929, according to his data. He estimates that there were 32 in the 1980s, 42 in the 1990s and 26 in the first decade of the century.

Chances of being killed in a mass shooting, he says, are probably no greater than being struck by lightning.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/rise-mass-killings-impact-huge-article-1.1221062

 

[stinx]

Actually considering the alternative to ALICE which is the "Lock down, Alice is 1000 times better. Alice gives options and there is no order in how they can be used. Alert people to what's happening Lock down, Inform, Counter or escape. With Alice people have choices as compared to most districts choice to stay locked in a room and be a static target. In regards to counter, its always the last choice, but at least they are teaching people if some madman come into a room shooting, to do something fight back ,escape, anything but just sit there and be an easy target. There are stats from the virgina tech massacre that proved those who locked down and stayed in place those rooms had the most killings. the rooms that barricaded or escaped had the least. The whole lock down response came directly from the prison system.

 

[Smash05]

Run, Hide, Fight in order of preference

 

[LowSider]

Actually considering the alternative to ALICE which is the "Lock down, Alice is 1000 times better. Alice gives options and there is no order in how they can be used. Alert people to what's happening Lock down, Inform, Counter or escape. With Alice people have choices as compared to most districts choice to stay locked in a room and be a static target. In regards to counter, its always the last choice, but at least they are teaching people if some madman come into a room shooting, to do something fight back ,escape, anything but just sit there and be an easy target. There are stats from the virgina tech massacre that proved those who locked down and stayed in place those rooms had the most killings. the rooms that barricaded or escaped had the least. The whole lock down response came directly from the prison system.

To add:

The info from the original post either sounds like bad training, bad ALICE training, or (no offense to the OP) bad school faculty who either didn't focus on the right part of the training or don't yet understand the concepts.

Before I get blasted, hear me out. I understand this might sound crazy to you all but you need to put yourself in the staff's shoes and circumstances first. It's easy for us to say "oh active shooter?!? I'll shoot him and problem solved!" But sadly, that doesn't work and is not an option for an unarmed/untrained/unprepared teacher.

In the ideal world, there would be no active school shooter. Since we don't live in an ideal world, that can't happen. The next best thing would be for the crazy guy with a gun and bad intentions to walk into the school and then get blasted by a teacher, parent, cop, or school security, ect. But let's say that isn't possible either. What's next? Most current school plans are a complete lock down. Lock down as in turn off the lights, lock the door, lower the shades, and hide in the corner of the class room.

That's far from ideal. At least ALICE is a start in the right direction. ALICE advocated that if the known threat is in the north wing, the south wing should beat feet off campus. ALICE advocates for barricading the areas that can't get to safety and not JUST locking the door. They mention throwing stuff because odds are the gunman might flinch with a stapler or chair whizzing at his head. It's better odds than rushing someone who isn't dodging anything. All I know is that if I was in the situation and it came to it, I would rather throw something and rush the bad guy than pray with my back turned.

Is ALICE the end all be all, absolutely not. But it's a step in the right direction. It is offering more than just locking down and sheltering in place. It is one small step closer to returning fire.

Take it for what you will.

 

[dcmdon]

Here is the other reality. "authorities" are most concerned with not doing anything wrong. They aren't concerned with doing something right.

I'll give you a little anecdote to illustrate. Last year I had pink eye. I took the normal drops and after 2 days it still felt like I had ground glass in my eye. I had some kind of strain that was resistant to the normal antibiotic.

I thought I could put off going to the DR until morning but by bedtime I was a mess. So I went to the E room. The doctor said he was going to prescribe me something that was "the next step up" and we'd see how it did.

I asked him if by "next step up" meant there was something even better than what he was prescribing me. (My eye was now almost swollen shut)

He said that yes, Cipro, was the nuclear weapon of antibiotics. But for public health reasons, they didn't like to prescribe it. They didn't want to accelerate natures adaptation to Cipro's existance.

I pointed at my eye and said "Are you ****ING KIDDING ME". Get me Cipro or I am not leaving until I talk to the Doc in charge.

He got me a sample of Cipro on the spot and wrote me a script for it.

Do I know if the "next step up" would have worked? No.

Do I care? No.

Does someone responsible for public health care? Yes. And its rational.

My point is that sometimes whats best for me individually is not whats best for the whole.

And whats best for my child may not necessarily be whats best for the group if everyone did what I want my child to do. Do I care? No.

 

[shipwreck]

immediately vomit and shit your pants! oh wait, is this a legitimate rape or not?

 

[Coyote33]

Just heard they want to do "ALICE Training" in our town before Town Meeting at the end of the month.

They describe it as:

ALICE Training is training to how to respond and actions to take when dealing with an active shooter or any type of threat in the building/office/ meeting. Very informative

http://www.alicetraining.com/what-we-do/respond-active-shooter-event/

A program on what to do in response to an active shooter situation

How to Respond to an Active Shooter - ALICE Training Institute

 

[MaverickNH]

I pointed at my eye and said "Are you ****ING KIDDING ME". Get me Cipro or I am not leaving until I talk to the Doc in charge.

Overkill always works. A rule to live by.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I was modified

How were you modified ?

He said that yes, Cipro, was the nuclear weapon of antibiotics. But for public health reasons, they didn't like to prescribe it. They didn't want to accelerate natures adaptation to Cipro's existance.

Cipro is routinely prescribed for things like UTIs. A few years ago, Vnaco was considered the nuke the MDs were reluctant to prescribe (though it's pretty common now). It's IV only, and extended dosing requires blood vanco level tests, so you don't tend to see it as an outpatient.

 

[Cloverleaf Firearms Group]

We have a pretty comprehensive Active Shooter plan in my school (we homeschool our kids), that just involves me shooting the person in the face.

It's pretty much like Derek's 'Step 1' on page 1.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

We have a pretty comprehensive Active Shooter plan in my school (we homeschool our kids), that just involves me shooting the person in the face.

It's pretty much like Derek's 'Step 1' on page 1.

I'll bet the headmaster of the school has even given you permission to be armed.

 

[Cloverleaf Firearms Group]

I'll bet the headmaster of the school has even given you permission to be armed.

Yup! I've even seen airsoft target practice at recess.

 

[jkelly1229]

I'm not going to name the school district but my cousins are both elementary school teachers in the same district and in the last week they had local PD come in and talk to them about what to do in an active shooter situation. They told me mostly everything and to say I was modified is stating it lightly. The following was told to school teachers mostly female to do in the event of a school shooting:

• Throw books, chairs, desks and anything else they can find at the shooter.
• Engage the shooter in conversation (if they are a current or former student) and try to talk them down.
• They were also told the point above was a bad idea stating that the teacher might be the reason for the shooting (Makes a lot of sense to give contradictory information)
• Shelter in place with your children (before they were told to huddle into a single corner of their rooms with all the children-this is now believed to be a bad idea)
• Blockade the door with file cabinets or other heavy objects and then place a card under the door to indicate everything was okay in that room (Also stating that there was no viable exit strategy from that room)
• To tackle the shooter and try to disarm them (Last possible option)
• If they are able to disarm the shooter to place the weapon under a trashcan, sit on the trashcan, and state "I have the gun"
• Make as much noise as possible to distract the shooter and keep the children calm
• Attempt evacuation if possible and again only as a last resort

They then asked me what I thought of this "training", and I answered them truthfully that if such an event were to happen there would be a very low survival rate among faculty and students. I then informed them that this was pseudo or feel-good training and had no way of keeping anyone safe. I told them that they need to have an armed officer to deter would-be shooters or even put up signs saying that the staff is armed. As we all know and what I told them a gun-free zone is a killing zone. Thoughts anyone?

Dunno who your cousin is but it sounds like he works at my fiancees school. I was stunned when it was said we hide under a desk. All the kids, like good let's make sure an active shooter doesn't have to search for targets. But in reality the layout of the school makes a huge difference. My old high school had tons of exits. Boss lady's school has 2 so they are screwed. Planning and training helps but it doesn't beat a lot of exit doors

 

[BakerBingo]

I don't have kids but this is outrageous. I have no facts to back it up, but Lt. Col. Grossman teaches in the seminar referenced earlier that children today are far more likely to be killed by school violence than by a school fire. I remember specifically from the seminar, that he said "parents would call for heads to roll if fire alarms and sprinklers were defective," which seems accurate. We used to practice fire drills at least one a month but never had a plan for active shooters.

The previous town I worked for had a lockdown and hide in place policy. We conducted active shooter training with simunitions twice a year. My current town has 11 schools and 2 SRO's, we've never done active shooter training and I've personally only been in 3 of them.

 

[Mark from MA]

My kids have been instructed that, if they are having a drill, they should do whatever the school has taught them. If there is ever a real situation, they are to throw a chair through the window and run into the woods.

Pretty much what i told my kids. My son explained this whole huddle in the q corner bullshit to me and i told him no matter what you get the **** out of there. Do not listen to anyone get out.

This was a dinner table conversation that anyone that has kids should be having. They are teaching kids the wrong way to respond.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[gerrycaruso]

So in the highly unlikely event that the teacher is able to get the gun away from the shooter, he or she is supposed to put it under a trash barrel and sit on the barrel? What prevents the shooter from knocking the teacher off the barrel and getting his gun back?

 

[dcmdon]

I don't have kids but this is outrageous. I have no facts to back it up, but Lt. Col. Grossman teaches in the seminar referenced earlier that children today are far more likely to be killed by school violence than by a school fire. I remember specifically from the seminar, that he said "parents would call for heads to roll if fire alarms and sprinklers were defective," which seems accurate. We used to practice fire drills at least one a month but never had a plan for active shooters.

The previous town I worked for had a lockdown and hide in place policy. We conducted active shooter training with simunitions twice a year. My current town has 11 schools and 2 SRO's, we've never done active shooter training and I've personally only been in 3 of them.

The reality is that most of the losers who go on these sprees aren't very proficient shooters. While its great that you guys do force on force training in the actual schools, the reality is that ANYONE confronting most of these guys will drive them to the next step in their plan, SUICIDE.

So while very well trained first responders are a good thing. An armed teacher or administrator that nobody knows is armed is a great first line of defense.

SROs utility is questionable. If I was a bad guy intent on killing people, I'd just kill him first. My action to his reaction, he wouldn't stand a chance. Imagine a student of the school walking up to the SRO and asking an innocent question that requires the SRO to turn and point. Most of us do it with our dominant hand. Our gun hand. Then the kid pulls a handgun out of his backpack and bang. Or jump him when he's at his desk. There are a million ways. The SRO is just a target that has "shoot me first" on his chest. Or head, since he's probably wearing body armor.

I was the network manager for a city a few years back. I was regularly in the schools since we had to get the SROs access to systems that were blocked from the school network. They were all good guys. But lets face it. Its hour after hour of boring tedium interspersed with breaking up fights. Its humanly impossible to maintain a high level of alertness in a situation like that.

 

[dcmdon]

My kids have been instructed that, if they are having a drill, they should do whatever the school has taught them. If there is ever a real situation, they are to throw a chair through the window and run into the woods.

We've had exactly the same discussion. The funny thing is that I've also had the same discussion with my kids teacher and she told me her plan is to have the kids throw chairs through the window, put the small throw rugs over the window edge and then push the kids out. I like her a lot. Shes a no-bs kindof woman.

 

[FrugalFannie]

Been covered before in other threads, but I have instructed my kids to run and not stop, go through the parking lot and put as many cars between you and the school as possible, no matter what you hear, no matter who calls to you - DO NOT STOP. Head to the Public Safety Building - about 1 mile away. Do not look for each other, you'll meet along the way, DO NOT STOP.

This is for shootings only (they hear gunfire) they know what it sounds like - we all shoot.

My son has similar instructions. If in a classroom, open/break a window and GTFO. Head towards nearest cover (trees/cars/etc). If possible take others with you (but his first responsibility is to survive) - added because he brought it up and how do you tell a kid to leave his friends behind to die? Once there is distance between him and the school, text me with where he is and where he is going. Again, reminded him that his job is to survive and that will usually mean ignoring teachers and staff. And if for some reason it was a false alarm (like those douche bag schools that run those drills with 'realistic' sounds etc) I would make sure the school was put in their place if they had aproblem with his actions.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I don't have kids but this is outrageous. I have no facts to back it up, but Lt. Col. Grossman teaches in the seminar referenced earlier that children today are far more likely to be killed by school violence than by a school fire. I remember specifically from the seminar, that he said "parents would call for heads to roll if fire alarms and sprinklers were defective," which seems accurate. We used to practice fire drills at least one a month but never had a plan for active shooters.

The previous town I worked for had a lockdown and hide in place policy. We conducted active shooter training with simunitions twice a year. My current town has 11 schools and 2 SRO's, we've never done active shooter training and I've personally only been in 3 of them.

Sadly it was mostly "Indians" in Lt. Col. Grossman's seminar . . . the real decision makers weren't there. Nobody from my PD attended, I was unable to reach our SRO (multiple Emails bounced). Subsequently I have spoken to our SRO and he gave me his school Email (instead of the PD Email) and his direct school phone number. I also spoke with Lt. Glen Mills at the end of Day 1 and told him that all the school superintendents should have been in that audience for Day 1!

It was very eye-opening, but I am personally very far out of the loop, having left the PD in the mid-1990s and Constables will never deal with this stuff. However the PD is still near and dear to my heart so I do try to feed them info that I think will be useful when I stumble upon it.

We've had exactly the same discussion. The funny thing is that I've also had the same discussion with my kids teacher and she told me her plan is to have the kids throw chairs through the window, put the small throw rugs over the window edge and then push the kids out. I like her a lot. Shes a no-bs kindof woman.

A person with an independent brain. A rare commodity in a school system.

 

[Dad]

My experience with ALICE differs. From what I got from the training was GTFO is the best option. They cited a few different shootings in the past and those that jumped out the window faired much better than those that sheltered in place. They also addressed the concern that some people have that there could be a second shooter in the woods where in reality that is very unlikely.

They also compared it to a fire where your best option for a fire is get away, same for an active shooter.

ALICE is not a sequence but in my training it was pretty clear that locking down and throwing books was a last resort.

The other thing that I got out of it was that it will be over before the police get there. How you could walk out of the training and not realize that gun free zones just creates a group easy targets is beyond me.

 

[dcmdon]

The other thing that I got out of it was that it will be over before the police get there. How you could walk out of the training and not realize that gun free zones just creates a group easy targets is beyond me.

Which reinforces the fact that armed resistance, ANY armed resistance usually causes the shooter to take his own life. So the schools need parents, teachers and admins with concealed firearms.

 

[HuntMaine]

Already have had this training in several Lowell and Dracut schools.