Accidental Discharges

iofneedle

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This always bothers me when I read about a cop who has an accidental discharge of his firearm. I was at the Glock vs. AG hearing a while back. The AGO says cops can use Glocks since they have 80 hours of training. Us common folk are too stupid to use them safely.

With 80 hours of training won't it always be a negligent discharge? Since the state says they are so highly trained...how could it possible be an accident?

Just once I want to read in a paper or online that a police officer had a negligent discharge of his gun. Maybe 80 hours isn't enough.
 
I don't think this deserves its own thread but what happens when you nd a glock. Does it negatively affect the gun? Also to the op negligent discharge is always the case there is no such thing as an accident just someone less focused
 
Yeah. I fired my first Glock back in 1990 or so, only have about 30 hours total training (not counting time spent at the range, but actual formal instruction over 25 years) and I have not had 1 accidental (nor negligent discharge) for that matter.

I will also I think safely say, from some of the LEOs I have talked to, that I have discharged more rounds this year than the average officer

More importantly, I think we should call the AGO on the 80 hours or training and request detailed records for each and every Officer.

It is clear that this is a LEO safety issue and not a gun issue. And back to the RI Case with the clown who was running... Sorry, Cops discharging a weapon INSIDE the police station is negligent discharge, not accidental discharge.

5 weapons that fire bullets, all loaded at all times... not once have they "accidentally" gone off, nor negligently for that fact.

By this same regard, we could probably reclassify all drunk driving as "accidental" and not negligent (i.e. no penalties) since the folks were inebriated and hence not having their full mental faculties to make best decisions.
 
Yeah. I fired my first Glock back in 1990 or so, only have about 30 hours total training (not counting time spent at the range, but actual formal instruction over 25 years) and I have not had 1 accidental (nor negligent discharge) for that matter.

I will also I think safely say, from some of the LEOs I have talked to, that I have discharged more rounds this year than the average officer

More importantly, I think we should call the AGO on the 80 hours or training and request detailed records for each and every Officer.

It is clear that this is a LEO safety issue and not a gun issue. And back to the RI Case with the clown who was running... Sorry, Cops discharging a weapon INSIDE the police station is negligent discharge, not accidental discharge.

5 weapons that fire bullets, all loaded at all times... not once have they "accidentally" gone off, nor negligently for that fact.

By this same regard, we could probably reclassify all drunk driving as "accidental" and not negligent (i.e. no penalties) since the folks were inebriated and hence not having their full mental faculties to make best decisions.


This exactly! I choked when I read about that claim. 80 hours of what sort of training, exactly? Half of them don't give a shit about guns and almost never draw theirs.
 
I don't think this deserves its own thread but what happens when you nd a glock. Does it negatively affect the gun? Also to the op negligent discharge is always the case there is no such thing as an accident just someone less focused
This.
No such thing as an AD. Even if the gun or holster had a "mechanical problem", the user should be on top of his equipment and ensure it's always in safe operating condition. There are only NDs IMHO.
 
For the sake of the PD and union, they have to blame the mechanical item or there would be BIG law suits.
If an officer would admit it was their fault, they would be fired, no benefits, etc.....
 
In my humble opinion it is not a matter of "if" you will have an AD but "when" you will have one. We humans are not infallible and all of us make mistakes at one time or another. They key to gun safety is to employ the safe rules so that even with a AD the people are safe. The police are prone to errors due to their significant time with a gun and the Glocks with their trigger system combined with the high stress of a violent confrontation ups the anti significantly. They could train a 1000 hours and still have an AD.
 
In my humble opinion it is not a matter of "if" you will have an AD but "when" you will have one. We humans are not infallible and all of us make mistakes at one time or another. They key to gun safety is to employ the safe rules so that even with a AD the people are safe. The police are prone to errors due to their significant time with a gun and the Glocks with their trigger system combined with the high stress of a violent confrontation ups the anti significantly. They could train a 1000 hours and still have an AD.

Let's be real, lots and lots of these cops shoot themselves when handling the pistol with their finger on the trigger, often in the Lockeroom. They aren't under stress, just careless.

We all know, for the most part, the average cop is clueless with guns. Example one: shooting up an entire neighborhood after the marathon bombing. The bomber, who has unarmed, was not even killed despite thousands of rounds being fired.
 
In my humble opinion it is not a matter of "if" you will have an AD but "when" you will have one. We humans are not infallible and all of us make mistakes at one time or another. They key to gun safety is to employ the safe rules so that even with a AD the people are safe. The police are prone to errors due to their significant time with a gun and the Glocks with their trigger system combined with the high stress of a violent confrontation ups the anti significantly. They could train a 1000 hours and still have an AD.

tenor.gif


So tell us about your "AD."
 
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I don't get the "training" thing. I can "train" you in the time it takes to read this sentence: "Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot." Consider yourself qualified.
 
I did in fact see an accidental discharge. My buddy got a new Taurus 9mm a few years back. We went to the range. He loaded the magazine, racked the slide....BANG! Almost took his hand off. He returned it to Taurus, they fixed it, he promptly traded it in and got an xD (He was a NH resident)
I guess you could say it was negligently designed.
 
I did in fact see an accidental discharge. My buddy got a new Taurus 9mm a few years back. We went to the range. He loaded the magazine, racked the slide....BANG! Almost took his hand off. He returned it to Taurus, they fixed it, he promptly traded it in and got an xD (He was a NH resident)
I guess you could say it was negligently designed.

Buying the Taurus was the negligent act.
 
The first step to overcoming these situations is to be honest with what happened.

It was not an "accidental" discharge. It was a negligent one. Unless the gun actually malfunctioned, it was operator error. Period.
 
In my humble opinion it is not a matter of "if" you will have an AD but "when" you will have one. We humans are not infallible and all of us make mistakes at one time or another. They key to gun safety is to employ the safe rules so that even with a AD the people are safe. The police are prone to errors due to their significant time with a gun and the Glocks with their trigger system combined with the high stress of a violent confrontation ups the anti significantly. They could train a 1000 hours and still have an AD.

I get the spirit of the "if" vs. "when", but think that it is a bit of a cop out (no pun intended). Accidents are accidents, that why they are called accidents. But pulling the trigger is not an accident. It's negligence and bad training.

I am a woodworker and craftsperson who has spend the majority of the last 15 years parked in front of heavy machinery and teaching young people how to safely work around heavy equipment . I am currently typing with all of my fingers and seeing with my eyes. Do I expect that eventually some electric-tailed-beast is going to munch up a couple of my digits? Nope.
Do I ever sleep on safety, personal protection and best practice methodologies? Nope.
I spend as least much time learning and thinking about what can go wrong as what goes right.

There was a lawsuit (in massachusetts of course) where some sap was trying to sue the makers of a job site table saw because the guy mangled his hand. Of course nothing was wrong with the saw, but the person was basically doing everything wrong short of using the saw blindfolded standing in a bathtub filled with salt water. They claimed that the company's was aware that flesh-detecting technologies (saw-stops) existed, but they intentionally have avoided implementing them.
The case was thrown out (thank god) but it illustrates that the machine which is functioning exactly as advertised is blamed in spite of clear cut operator negligence.

The same logic has been applied and successfully implemented against the firearms industry in Mass.
Mostly because ignorant bureaucrats spend their days sitting on their thumbs just waiting for some moron to do something stupid so they can go out and sue and over-regulate as a means of justifying their position.
 
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Buying the Taurus was the negligent act.

I told him the xD in the first place. He hates glocks, and the M&P was also new, but he was sour on S&W. Didn't want a Sig or H&K. He didn't want to spend the extra money, and he didn't want to do any research either. "i want a gun and want it now! F glocks, I hate S&W...what's that over there.. I'll take that one, it's cheap."

I remember saying the rugers were good, but he had never heard of them. He had never heard of Taurus either. But it was the one he first saw on the rack that he liked how it looked I guess.

I have another friend who bought the bodyguard when it came out. It's obvious he hates it, but he won't admit a mistake, he'd rather live with buyers remorse than admit he paid $400 for something he wishes he doesn't own.

I don't know how many I've bought and traded. Some I've loved. Others I've hated. Cut your losses and move on.
 
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I did in fact see an accidental discharge. My buddy got a new Taurus 9mm a few years back. We went to the range. He loaded the magazine, racked the slide....BANG! Almost took his hand off. He returned it to Taurus, they fixed it, he promptly traded it in and got an xD (He was a NH resident)
I guess you could say it was negligently designed.
This is why I test the heck out of my new purchases before carrying or getting too comfortable with them. Good thing he followed the other rules like keeping it pointed in a safe direction or that could have gotten nasty.
 
In my humble opinion it is not a matter of "if" you will have an AD but "when" you will have one. We humans are not infallible and all of us make mistakes at one time or another. They key to gun safety is to employ the safe rules so that even with a AD the people are safe. The police are prone to errors due to their significant time with a gun and the Glocks with their trigger system combined with the high stress of a violent confrontation ups the anti significantly. They could train a 1000 hours and still have an AD.


Employing safety rules is great but not the end all. I was reading about a ND on another forum and one guy was shouting repeatedly ALWAYS not SOMETIMES safe direction.
Can one holster a gun and maintain a safe direction? No part of the human body is a safe direction. A lot of these NDs happen when holstering or un-holstering. Trigger finger discipline is key since there will be many occasions when one is forced to violate other rules but never the finger off trigger rule....
 
ND happen its a fact of life. Few years back me and a buddy were hunting Muzzle loading season went to bring my hammer down as we were changing locations and it slipped and bang. No harm was done seeing gun was pointed in a face direction but now I wont hunt with a glove on during ML season.
 
ND happen its a fact of life. Few years back me and a buddy were hunting Muzzle loading season went to bring my hammer down as we were changing locations and it slipped and bang. No harm was done seeing gun was pointed in a face direction but now I wont hunt with a glove on during ML season.

That's not really an ND if you were handling the firearm safely otherwise while bringing the hammer down.

-Mike
 
I did in fact see an accidental discharge. My buddy got a new Taurus 9mm a few years back. We went to the range. He loaded the magazine, racked the slide....BANG! Almost took his hand off. He returned it to Taurus, they fixed it, he promptly traded it in and got an xD (He was a NH resident)
I guess you could say it was negligently designed.

If it "almost took his hand off" he was handling the gun with negligence while performing an administrative function. So while the gun was clearly defective, if he had been handling it better it would have turned a pant shitting event into a surprising, but less exciting one.

I've seen a bunch of slam fires with defective pistols (mostly guys with slicked up modified 1911s that had shit trigger jobs) and thankfully while it was a surprise to the operator, because the operator of the firearm was loading and handling safely (loading on a hot range, gun pointed downrange) nothing bad came as a result.

Most NDs involve a series of rules being broken simultaneously. The NDs that result in serious injury nearly always involve more than one rule being broken simultaneously.

-Mike
 
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This.
No such thing as an AD. Even if the gun or holster had a "mechanical problem", the user should be on top of his equipment and ensure it's always in safe operating condition. There are only NDs IMHO.

There really are ADs, imho, it's just that how someone handles their gun will determine whether or not they were negligent. Or whether or not they did something obvious that would have made the accident easily preventable.

For example, a bunch of the ring of fire shitpistols like lorcin, etc, are IMHO, inherently unsafe. (a lot of them are not drop safe, among other things) That being said, the overwhelming majority of the incidents I've read about these guns causing injuries is directly related to negligence of the person handling the firearm. In one case a guy put a lorcin in his pants or something, got out of his truck, gun fell out, hit the ground, fired, hit him in the chest somewhere and killed him. Had he used even a $20 holster on his shitty gun, securely attached to his belt he wouldn't have been killed by his own gun.

The number of true legit accidental discharges are pretty small percent of the whole.

-Mike
 
In one case a guy put a lorcin in his pants or something, got out of his truck, gun fell out, hit the ground, fired, hit him in the chest somewhere and killed him
Sounds like the old Steling .380 from 1980 or so.
 
Everytime the AD vs ND thing comes up i tend to not get involved.
I hit the bolt catch chambering a round this year and upon closing the firearm discharged.
I was fully aware this could happen and after the many many rounds ive fired it happened..
The fact that i was aware of it and safety handling the firearm is the difference between AD and NG.

Next time im at the range, im going to let a round cook off in a hot chamber... just to see it because i try pretty hard to prevent it from happing so it never has.
 
This.
No such thing as an AD. Even if the gun or holster had a "mechanical problem", the user should be on top of his equipment and ensure it's always in safe operating condition. There are only NDs IMHO.

I respectfully disagree. Especially if it's an older firearm that you don't own. See my video below. The guy says, "ND", but I'd have a hard time seeing how it could have been avoided. He later adds it was an AD not a ND.

[video]https://youtu.be/fk1EjQMq16Q?t=44s[/video]
 
AT the end he says in the future he'll preform such things towards a bucket of sand wich is a sound practice..
I don't do stuff like that with live rounds indoors, but if you where a gunsmith you would be.

There are several comments about snap caps referenced in the comments... while it sounds simple and easy, if indeed his chambering issue and the AD/ND was caused by a sruck/protruding firing pin... a snap cap would not so easily identifed the problem
 
This.
No such thing as an AD. Even if the gun or holster had a "mechanical problem", the user should be on top of his equipment and ensure it's always in safe operating condition. There are only NDs IMHO.


It's the users fault even when the manufacturer makes a defective product?
 
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