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Accident?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Garys, Oct 7, 2018.

  1. drgrant

    drgrant Moderator NES Member

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    If this was a durka thing, why would they commit an act of terror that the government could easily write off as an accident? That makes no sense
    at all. Yeah let's cause a car wreck, something with a low memetic value. Such terror. Wow. Not.

    This is shaping up to be more like "fung wah bus, limo edition" than "shady durka terror conspiracy".

    -Mike
     
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  2. drgrant

    drgrant Moderator NES Member

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    It's usually "16 or more passengers" unless it's one of those weirdo restricted school bus licenses. (but school buses are a whole different ball of
    shit anyways).

    -Mike
     
  3. Zappa

    Zappa Road Warrior NES Member

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    16 or more puts the vehicle into a different class, that's why those airport limo type van conversion vehicles are specifically limited to 14 passengers, to stay within certain vehicle class restrictions. (14 + the driver = 15)
    Since the Excursion carried 17, legally both the vehicle and the driver had to be in compliance with the stricter licensing rules of the next higher vehicle class.

    FMCSA Small Passenger-Carrying Vehicles

    https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/sites/fmcsa.dot.gov/files/docs/9-15-Passenger_Vehicle_Brochure_508CLN.pdf
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2018
  4. AHM

    AHM NES Member

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    One of the classic metrics of a vehicle in poor condition is "seat belts jammed under the seats so deeply that it takes two minutes of cursing to extract even one of them".

    Probably.

    But from the Times-Union accident scene photos, the limo wasn't riding on wheels when they dragged it back out of the treeline - a skidmark on the grass the width of the entire vehicle. (Not all of the wheels may have even stayed on the vehicle). So don't be surprised if everything on the bottom of the undercarriage got a couple hundred feet worth of severe dirt-scrubbing. NTSB has the forensics to find corrosion, etc. on brake lines that have been snapped off at the point of failure anyhow. But the wreckage is probably mangled more than in most MVA's, and that's really saying something.


    Any hypothetical smaller kids had probably been left with grandparents or neighbors for the day, either for hanging out at their houses for the duration, or for the grandparents to ("responsibly") drive to the birthday venue separately in their own cars. (Can't fit the entire extended family into a stretch limo). So for surviving kids, their last memory of their parents was "we'll see you at/after Aunt Amy's party", and then they drove off into eternity.
     
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  5. Dennis in MA

    Dennis in MA NES Member

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    I read the first day about several other accidents on the same intersection. Maybe some bad equipment. I'm really thinking a driver who doesn't understand inertia.
     
  6. richc

    richc NES Member

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    A guy I grew up with in Dorchester died a few years back coming down Parker Hill Ave in Boston. Big hill with NE Baptist hospital on top. Brakes went on his firetruck and they smashed through a brick wall into a brick building.

    RIP Kevin.
     
  7. drgrant

    drgrant Moderator NES Member

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    I remember this incident, it was a huge deal at the time. [sad]

    -Mike
     
  8. Fixxah

    Fixxah NES Member

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    I drive by that wall every day on Huntington Ave.

    Usually one of the busiest areas, I can't remember if the truck hit a vehicle first.
     
  9. Garys

    Garys NES Member

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    I've been in cabs like that, as well as airport shuttle vans. It seems a lot better over the past few years. Cars used by Uber seem to be decent, if not brand new. Of course there is wide variation in Uber vehicles.

    I saw a picture today of a wheel lying in some bushes, so it's likely that parts were torn off during the crash. If you've ever watched "Aircraft Disasters" on Smithsonian Channel, it's pretty amazing what the NTSB labs can figure out for little bits and pieces.

    There is some video footage on CNN that shows some of the damage.

    And of course there is a lot of misinformation about the vehicle itself. Some of the reporters are talking as if all conversions are unsafe. I'm sure this vehicle came out of the conversion factory in good shape, but 16 or so years of hard use and bad maintenance can make any vehicle unsafe.

    Ford has a certification program for aftermarket manufacturers called Qualified Vehicle Modifying. I know that ambulance builders have to meet the requirements or Ford won't sell them chassis. I imagine that most other upfitters or conversion companies have to do the same.

    I don't think the fact that the owner of the company was a Cooperating Witness for the FBI means much, but it's certainly an odd twist.

     
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  10. richc

    richc NES Member

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    Nice kid and family. His Dad was a Fire Captain... Captain Kelly. Typical inner city Irish family.

    They lived in a two family house. His family on one floor. His Grandmother and mother's sister (Aunt) lived on the other one. Old Mr.s Grant would sit on the porch and watch us kids.

    Kevin went off into the military after highschool. I forget which branch. He was stationed in Mexico for a while. When he came home for a visit he walked off the plane with his expectant wife! Never told anyone back home... :)

    They were married when he died with a number of daughters.

    The Boston Fire Department was the subject of a documentary a while back. And there was Kevin prominently portrayed.



    RIP Kevin...


     
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  11. AHM

    AHM NES Member

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    Yep, on all of that.
     
  12. ToddDubya

    ToddDubya NES Member

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    I imagine a CDL covers things like the effects of trying to stop with an extra ton-and-a-half of passenger weight. I almost never have a passenger in my vehicle and when I do, I can feel the difference trying to stop. It's not a lot, but it's noticeable. That's only maybe an extra 200#.
     
  13. mwalsh9152

    mwalsh9152 NES Member

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    I'm pretty sure that almost NONE of the limos on the road fit into Fords accepted parameters. They are just too long. I believe that the max length for them is more like the family cars a funeral home has. At least that's what it used to be.

    The brakes on that Excursion are way too small for the job. Theres A LOT more weight on that thing than they should safely handle.
     
  14. connor

    connor

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    Wonder what it failed for.
    I drove months in a truck with a rejection sticker for the cracked windshield and AFAIK they still haven't gotten it fixed at work. Not going to be charged with negligent homicide if the truck's brakes fail and it kills me in the crash. I'm not saying someone wouldn't be a total scumbag but it's a little more surprising if it was a failure for something safety vital that the company chose to ignore.

    Be interesting to see if it's rallying cry for states to crack down on lift kits, wide wheels, tint, and lights out. You know, instead of actually dangerous things.


    Also autos will let you set the maximum gear they'll go into to slow you down. Tap shifting, tiptronic, and good old fashioned prdn321 are to slow you down as much as they are about performance or other benefits. I always drop gears before applying the brakes when I tow my big trailer on the highway (my truck is auto). Saves my trailer and truck brakes.
     
  15. connor

    connor

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    An excursion is an f-250 with few exceptions, and is rated to tow 11k lbs.
    That basically means that on an unbraked trailer you can pull 11k (gross) and the brakes will be fine.
    If you have a trailer with brakes, it's loaded correctly, and the tongue weight isn't too high, you're (in most cases) limited by the springs, hitch or how powerful the engine is. Frequently pickups will pull 15, 20+ behind them cruising like it was a landscape trailer. As long as it's got brakes, and you don't exceed GAWR on any axle, you can pretty much pull anything your hitch and engine will let you.
    And you have no idea what they were running for brakes on the limo. While it probably did have the stock brakes who's to say it didn't have a dana 80 and 550 brakes swapped on?
     
  16. Garys

    Garys NES Member

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    I know at one time Ford had a maximum amount of "stretch" that they would allow, but I don't know if they still have the same restriction or if it's longer. Those Excursion stretch limos were a thing for a while and I always wondered how they got away with it. I remember one limo, maybe not an excursion that had a hot tub built in. It looked cool, but I doubt it was all that safe.

    I was still working when that happened, although I didn't respond. The station I worked out of at the time is co located with the BPD truck team and accident investigators. I talked to the truck team guy who started to investigate the condition of the truck. He was pulled off pretty quickly and the MSP Accident Reconstruction Team took over. The city didn't want any claims of a white wash.

    From what I was told, the fail safe system that was supposed to stop the truck wasn't in working order. I'm sure that there are 20 guys here who can explain it better, but as I understand it, trucks with air brakes are supposed to have a mechanical system that will lock the brakes if the air brakes fail. That was inoperative, so the truck just continued down the hill and into the wall.

    As a result of the investigation BFD had to hire ASE certified truck mechanics, which they didn't have before.

    It's been several years, so I don't recall all of the details.

     
  17. mwalsh9152

    mwalsh9152 NES Member

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    Almost every excursion limo I've ever seen still has the factory wheels on it, so it doesn't have anything larger than the 13" oem rotors. I had 19.5's on my 03 with the 13" rotors, and they were very badly warped without towing in a few thousand miles. Add 16-17 more people, and the added weight of the stretch, and that is not gonna be good.for the brakes.

    I dont know what they had for brakes in this particular one, but everything I've read so far says that Mohammad ran a fly by night company with garbage equipment. I strongly doubt it had anything more of an upgrade than slotted rotors and good pads.
     
  18. connor

    connor

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    Rotors don't warp from heat. That's a problem with your brakes. The rotor wears unevenly or the pad deposits unevenly/poorly and causes the feeling you get from "warped" rotors.
    If your breaks were overheating that would just be straight loss of braking power, and you probably wouldn't have experienced that without being severely overloaded on a steep grade in an excursion.
    A stretch limo, even a huge one, isn't testing the limits of heavy duty pickup's brakes.
     
  19. Mike Stanton

    Mike Stanton

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    Ok

    Shitty driver.

    I actually buy this. It does happen.

    NEXT
     
  20. Jason Flare

    Jason Flare NES Member

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    Girlfriends?
     
  21. kevin9

    kevin9

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    + crappy "car"

    Lotsa likelihood of incompetence, very little likelihood of malice
     
  22. connor

    connor

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    I don't know anything about the accident, just going off what I know about trucks- Idk how the brakes fail and the ebrake also fails, other than a runaway from overheating. Normally when you lose air pressure, the ebrakes come on, just because of how the spring brake system works, not really a failsafe mechanism. The primary system use air to push the pads, same as a car. But the ebrake works by an absence of air: when you let the air out of the system big springs clamp the pads on the drum/rotor and stop the truck. So if the system loses pressure for any reason, while you may not be able to use air to force the brakes, there also isn't any air to hold the springs back. If for some reason this didn't happen, maybe a hard part failed at the brake or on the pedal, he still would have been able to release the ebrake.
    Would have to have been a very weird failure, and even then he should have been able to hit the spring brakes, both systems failing is kind of weird. I don't think I know how that could happen.
     
  23. radioman

    radioman NES Member

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    Driver could have been riding the brakes all the way down all the hills in the area. News says the area has many hills. Drivers that don’t know how to drive heavy vehicles will do this sometimes and get into big trouble. Once the brakes pass a certain temperature then they no longer work. Many of you have seen short track races where the cars brake rotors are bright red from using them so forcefully. Same thing happens when you ride the brakes long enough down hill. They heat up till they’re red hot and no longer work.
    How do brakes work in the first place? They convert motion into heat. When the system can’t take anymore heat they no longer will retard motion.
     
  24. Woodstock

    Woodstock NES Member

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    Saw some pictures on the evening news of the final stopping point where the limo slammed head-on into a dirt bank. The people probably went flying forward at high speed. Looks like total brake failure from rusty brake lines blowing out or he overheated the brakes coming down the steep hill. There have been two trailer trucks that crashed there from loss of brakes. Out in western MA there's a hill on Route 57 near Granville where a couple of truckers have died when they ran out of brakes going down the long steep hill.
     
  25. Zappa

    Zappa Road Warrior NES Member

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  26. AHM

    AHM NES Member

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  27. Zappa

    Zappa Road Warrior NES Member

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  28. Dennis in MA

    Dennis in MA NES Member

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    I've forgotten - was this driver negligence or a runaway broken limo??? Seems a failed inspection would only play into one of those. That sucker was going far too fast regardless of the "safety" of the vehicle and stopping in time.
     
  29. AHM

    AHM NES Member

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    If it was Massachusetts, I'd be worried that the limo company owner was bribing someone at the Registry to restore registrations. In Upstate NY, I fancy it'd be more likely that the DMV was doing things out of confusion about the ongoing problems with the limo company; perhaps (perhaps) exacerbated by the owner flat out lying to them about what conditions he was supposed to fix in this-or-that limo in his fleet. Still not surprised that the DMV is stonewalling about the details of their actions.

    Put a stoner chauffeur in a limo with no brakes at highway speed on a surface road that ends in a 3-way intersection, and it's no surprise the cross-road capped the T on the limo like the Japanese running in to Oldendorf at Surigao Strait.
     
  30. RIFLEMAN1000

    RIFLEMAN1000

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    A lot of companies that produce limos are hack jobs at best, shoddy frame welds and factory braking systems . The vehicle now wieghs and carries at least twice what it was designed for and you expect it to stop on factory barking system . Its a miracle more accidents don't happen .
     
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