a WTF moment: small gun stores that screw you

[Rob Boudrie]

Unless the suppliers are colluding to fix the pricing or artificially limit supply then the price is simply market demand.
There is no such thing as gouging in a free market transaction - the item is worth the asking price or not.

Sure there is, but it generally involves coercive situations. As in "I am the only one here with a first aid kit and you have about 5 minutes before you pass out and die unless I sell you a tournequit. My price is $250,000 - just sign here agreeing to the price and a lien on your house and I'll install it".

Technically that is "willing buyer meets willing seller", but most would still consider it gouging.

 

[VetteGirlMA]

most of the time i try to buy local and support small gun shops, seems like there are 2 in my area jacking up ammo prices by charging more than twice the price; $35 for 40 S&W 50 rds. went to cabelas, hudson ma and they were in shape. $16.99 50 rds. 5 box limit

Even the people I know who are no longer living in the northeast but in a free state are complaining about (a) ammo prices and (b) availability of ammo. It's not a unique to MA problem it's all over.

 

[Pyromancer]

Even the people I know who are no longer living in the northeast but in a free state are complaining about (a) ammo prices and (b) availability of ammo. It's not a unique to MA problem it's all over.

Availability is likely worse in free states than in MA. If all you need to buy a gun/ammo is a drivers license (free state) there is no purchase bottleneck. In MA, if I want my first (legal) gun, its a 3+ month dance (Safety Class, LTC paperwork, fingerprint, interview, State BS) before getting anything. The demand lag just from new people is going to last awhile...

 

[alan226]

Economically speaking, Id be interested to hear more about your supposition on mfg cost. I cant readily see factors causing a rise in manufacturing costs here. In fact the spot price of one component, lead, over the last 5 years has been generally downward, and the price today is less than it was a year ago.

Lead PRICE Today | Lead Spot Price Chart | Live Price of Lead per Ounce | Markets Insider

Lead Price: Get all information on the Price of Lead including News, Charts and Realtime Quotes.

markets.businessinsider.com

Lead might be the cheapest part of a bullet.

Copper for the jacket?
Brass for the cartridge.
Raw materials for the powder?

China probably has a stranglehold on the raw materials

Not saying it's true, just throwing it out there

 

[neum69]

Absolutely. As long as OP knows that most people are libertarian/free market on here, and will take a "screwing you on price" thread with little sympathy.

Saying "I got a great deal on gun food at Cabela's!" then saying it beat LGS by x% would have communicated the facts, but in a better way, IMO.

OP is free to post what they want..but you gotta know how to read a room and know your audience.

So you don't object to the substance of the OP's post, just the manner in which he said it. Ok.

Lead might be the cheapest part of a bullet.

Copper for the jacket?
Brass for the cartridge.
Raw materials for the powder?

China probably has a stranglehold on the raw materials

Not saying it's true, just throwing it out there

Copper spot price looks just like lead; tin is down year over year (copper and tin make brass).

Olin's Q3 report says the below. Point being, I doubt it's a mfg cost issue; supply and demand is probably the answer here. There's very brisk demand and the manufacturers can't keep up, meaning prices rise.

"The Winchester business continued to drive improved segment earnings from strong commercial ammunition demand. On October 1st, Winchester began to operate the Lake City U.S. Army Ammunition Plant (Lake City) and expects to generate sequential incremental adjusted EBITDA of approximately $10 million in fourth quarter 2020 from both Lake City and price increases across the commercial ammunition portfolio."

 

[TrashcanDan]

Lake City White Box

I can only imagine..............

 

[general disorder]

No dude. I really am a Millenial.

That explains why you don't understand the coolness and power of the mighty 40. Can't teach these know it all kids anything.

 

[CrackPot]

This is an official out yourself thread, right? Everyone who says "price gouging" has self selected as a communist price control advocate and is asking for a one way ticket to Venezuela? Serious, WTF? Feel free to be clueless, but doing it in public makes you stupid and clueless.

There is no price gouging. That is like saying there are ghost guns, high capacity weapons and assault weapons. You are using the language of the people trying to take your freedom and rights away from you. There is capitalism where a good business balances selling for what the market will accept and also the long term impact of their selling price.

Dont like it, dont buy. Really dont like it, dont go back again.

Also, thinking you know WHO is causing ammo prices to go up is doubly ignorant. Places like Cabelas buy from one place, their national distributor. They get ammo from distribution who gets it from the supplier just like when times are normal. The prices have gone up as much as 50% in this supply path. It is hard to get product this way because EVERYONE wants the product.

Your LGS if they are doing their job and trying to keep product available for their customers is buying from distribution but also buying from non-traditional locations. Distribution may get them NOTHING if they are small enough because it gets prioritized to larger volume customers. If distribution is supplying, it might be measured in boxes, not cases. So the LGS is buying on gun broker and at retail from other gun shops (like TSUSA) to insure they have product on the shelf. Even Target Sports is over $0.50/rd for 9mm and over $0.80/rd for 556 right now. It takes a LOT of work to keep ammo on the shelves right now.

Smart customers appreciate that product is available. Communists complain about price gouging.

Please continue to self out yourself. Not just AOC can make lists...

 

[Emacs]

This is an official out yourself thread, right? Everyone who says "price gouging" has self selected as a communist price control advocate and is asking for a one way ticket to Venezuela? Serious, WTF? Feel free to be clueless, but doing it in public makes you stupid and clueless.

There is no price gouging. That is like saying there are ghost guns, high capacity weapons and assault weapons. You are using the language of the people trying to take your freedom and rights away from you. There is capitalism where a good business balances selling for what the market will accept and also the long term impact of their selling price.

Dont like it, dont buy. Really dont like it, dont go back again.

Also, thinking you know WHO is causing ammo prices to go up is doubly ignorant. Places like Cabelas buy from one place, their national distributor. They get ammo from distribution who gets it from the supplier just like when times are normal. The prices have gone up as much as 50% in this supply path. It is hard to get product this way because EVERYONE wants the product.

Your LGS if they are doing their job and trying to keep product available for their customers is buying from distribution but also buying from non-traditional locations. Distribution may get them NOTHING if they are small enough because it gets prioritized to larger volume customers. If distribution is supplying, it might be measured in boxes, not cases. So the LGS is buying on gun broker and at retail from other gun shops (like TSUSA) to insure they have product on the shelf. Even Target Sports is over $0.50/rd for 9mm and over $0.80/rd for 556 right now. It takes a LOT of work to keep ammo on the shelves right now.

Smart customers appreciate that product is available. Communists complain about price gouging.

Please continue to self out yourself. Not just AOC can make lists...

Well said. Communists prefer to have $10/box ammo sold out, compared with $30/box ammo in stock. Price signals are one of the most powerful forces for social good, yet so few people understand that.

 

[DarthRevan]

That explains why you don't understand the coolness and power of the mighty 40. Can't teach these know it all kids anything.

10mm is the closest to 40 I’ll shoot.
-Grump ass millennial.

 

[rommel]

Well said. Communists prefer to have $10/box ammo sold out, compared with $30/box ammo in stock. Price signals are one of the most powerful forces for social good, yet so few people understand that.

Also well said. OP probably does not understand that when companies do not raise the price of a product that is in line with supply and demand then those companies are significant contributers to the shortage. The reason there was no toilet paper on the shelves 6 months ago was because stores kept charging the same price for the product that was in high demand. People had no problem buying 10x the amount they needed because the price was the same. They figured I can buy the whole years worth of tp and it would not cost me anything extra. Had true supply/demand dictated the price then the same tp would have gone up by 50%-100+% more and people would have had to choose whether it was worth buying something they do not need at that price.

To the op: how many boxes of ammo would you have bought if there was no shortage? How about if there was no limit on boxes you could buy? Do you think you contributed at all for the shortage and high price that you are complaining about?

 

[TrashcanDan]

The difference between 2008 and now is just a set of numbers on a calendar.

 

[drgrant]

The difference between 2008 and now is just a set of numbers on a calendar.

No not even close 2008 was like playskool land compared to this shit.....

 

[GlockJock]

What wrong with duran duran?

Back when "Hungry like the wolf" was at the top of the charts, half of the "older-but-desperately-trying-to-stay-thirty" chicks on the dance floor would do you right there, right in mid-song, if you were ten years younger than them and you were at the right "cocaine-infused-MILF" nightclub, etc etc...
(Ask me how I know )

Just sayin'

 

[Dennis in MA]

Well said. Communists prefer to have $10/box ammo sold out, compared with $30/box ammo in stock. Price signals are one of the most powerful forces for social good, yet so few people understand that.

Yeah. It stinks both ways. Either there is nada in stock and you can't go shooting. . . . or you don't wanna pay $30 and you can't go shooting. But the latter SEEMS unfair. LOL

Joe Pesci said it best, it's the bitchesthatllgitchez.

 

[TrashcanDan]

No not even close 2008 was like playskool land compared to this shit.....

Kinda same. Not exactly the same, you're right about that. Different strain of retardedness.
Ammo limits. Supply shortage. Prices went up.
Constantly heard the "If YoU CaN FinD PrImErS oR AmMo" squawking from pantshitters and vultures that hang out at the l.g.s. bothering people and spoutin off whatever rumor mill horseshit they heard from the Fudd circle at the local club (YOu'Re ShoOtINg ToO FasT!)
I think it was 2010 or shortly after when there was more than enough stock and prices started to drift down.

 

[neum69]

This is an official out yourself thread, right? Everyone who says "price gouging" has self selected as a communist price control advocate and is asking for a one way ticket to Venezuela? Serious, WTF? Feel free to be clueless, but doing it in public makes you stupid and clueless.

Classic strawman argument. I didn't hear OP, or anyone else in this thread, say prices should be regulated. But by observing and communicating the difference in prices at different types of shops, he's making the market more efficient. Basic microeconomics.

Dont like it, dont buy. Really dont like it, dont go back again.

On this we agree. But I (and maybe the OP and a few others) would add - talk about it too. Tell others what you know. Better information = more efficient markets.

Please continue to self out yourself. Not just AOC can make lists...

With this comment, you have revealed yourself as no better than your enemy.

 

[allen-1]

Even the people I know who are no longer living in the northeast but in a free state are complaining about (a) ammo prices and (b) availability of ammo. It's not a unique to MA problem it's all over.

I'm in a free state - Georgia - and you're correct.

I have friends who can't find ammo. People aren't shooting matches because they don't have ammo. Our local match director has opened IDPA and USPSA matches to .22 so that people can shoot them. They're getting scores, but their scores don't count towards any division in IDPA/USPSA. People are shooting w/22's so that they can have some practice.

I reload, as do some of my friends. We can find bullets and powder, although powder's a bit spotty - but we can't find primers either. They're not on the shelves, they're not available online.

Some of us are better prepared than others. I have enough ammo and components on hand to shoot at least another year, possibly two or more - depending upon how often I practice and how much I shoot in practice. Some of my friends have more, some have less.

One local gun store isn't selling ammo, unless you're buying a gun. His logic is that if he's selling a gun to a new owner, he needs to be able to sell them at least a box of ammo, preferably more - otherwise the gun is useless.

The other local gun stores have very limited supplies on hand. No 9mm, very little of anything else.

 

[Pyromancer]

So you don't object to the substance of the OP's post, just the manner in which he said it. Ok.



Copper spot price looks just like lead; tin is down year over year (copper and tin make brass).

Olin's Q3 report says the below. Point being, I doubt it's a mfg cost issue; supply and demand is probably the answer here. There's very brisk demand and the manufacturers can't keep up, meaning prices rise.

"The Winchester business continued to drive improved segment earnings from strong commercial ammunition demand. On October 1st, Winchester began to operate the Lake City U.S. Army Ammunition Plant (Lake City) and expects to generate sequential incremental adjusted EBITDA of approximately $10 million in fourth quarter 2020 from both Lake City and price increases across the commercial ammunition portfolio."

The raw materials price is having an affect on ammo price, but minimal compared to the sheer supply/demand. Increased distribution costs are also having an effect.

 

[Pyromancer]

This is an official out yourself thread, right? Everyone who says "price gouging" has self selected as a communist price control advocate and is asking for a one way ticket to Venezuela? Serious, WTF? Feel free to be clueless, but doing it in public makes you stupid and clueless.

There is no price gouging. That is like saying there are ghost guns, high capacity weapons and assault weapons. You are using the language of the people trying to take your freedom and rights away from you. There is capitalism where a good business balances selling for what the market will accept and also the long term impact of their selling price.

Dont like it, dont buy. Really dont like it, dont go back again.

Also, thinking you know WHO is causing ammo prices to go up is doubly ignorant. Places like Cabelas buy from one place, their national distributor. They get ammo from distribution who gets it from the supplier just like when times are normal. The prices have gone up as much as 50% in this supply path. It is hard to get product this way because EVERYONE wants the product.

Your LGS if they are doing their job and trying to keep product available for their customers is buying from distribution but also buying from non-traditional locations. Distribution may get them NOTHING if they are small enough because it gets prioritized to larger volume customers. If distribution is supplying, it might be measured in boxes, not cases. So the LGS is buying on gun broker and at retail from other gun shops (like TSUSA) to insure they have product on the shelf. Even Target Sports is over $0.50/rd for 9mm and over $0.80/rd for 556 right now. It takes a LOT of work to keep ammo on the shelves right now.

Smart customers appreciate that product is available. Communists complain about price gouging.

Please continue to self out yourself. Not just AOC can make lists...

I'm not in the business, but do some of the bigs (cabelas, academy, bps etc), negotiate their ammo shipments and prices months or even years in advance? Might explain how some big stores still have the occasional "good deal."
I can't imagine Cabelas would buy at today's price and sell at yesterday's price...

 

[spt_1955]

othere charging $35 box of 50 is price gouging

Sorry but our favorite CT supplier was charging $0.60/round for Winchester White Box .40 (i.e. $30 a box of 50) an this morning had Tula 9MM Steel Case for $0.40/round. So if that is what the LGS is paying then $35 a box is far from gouging.

I remain surprised at the number of people who do not understand how retailers acquire inventory (they are called distributors) and think there is some magical direct connection to manufacturers where they get some super secret industry discount.

BTW Vista Outdoors just started accepting orders from distributors for 2022 deliveries so don't expect this to end anytime soon.

 

[Kevin_NH]

I'm not in the business, but do some of the bigs (cabelas, academy, bps etc), negotiate their ammo shipments and prices months or even years in advance? Might explain how some big stores still have the occasional "good deal."
I can't imagine Cabelas would buy at today's price and sell at yesterday's price...

Even independent shops have orders in place months in advance; when the previous round of shortages hit, I ran into Jim at SO and he mentioned that they had something in the realm of a million rounds on backorder with distributors.

 

[Dennis in MA]

I have to say, given this craziness, I'm ready to peruse my safe to see what MA-compliant guns I can drop off for consignment at my local shop this weekend. CRAZY out there!!!!

NO THIS IS NOT AN OFFER TO SELL. PLEASE DON'T PM ME. I'D RATHER PAY MY GUY 15-20% AND NOT HAVE TO DEAL WITH EMAILS AND CONNECTING AND PAPERWORK. THANK YOU. (And I don't even know what IN there yet!)

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I remain surprised at the number of people who do not understand how retailers acquire inventory (they are called distributors) and think there is some magical direct connection to manufacturers where they get some super secret industry discount.

There is if you are big enough.

Think Walmart was buying their ammo from distributors? If the answer is no, then the only question is "how big do you have to be to deal direct?".

 

[LLF]

Something else to consider: a relationship with your dealer.
I have been doing business for about three years now with one dealer (at the Mill). He doesn't stock a huge variety of guns, he doesn't have a fancy showroom with nice glass cases, he doesn't do "doorbusters" or "I'll beat any advertised price" but he is RELIABLE & HONEST and gives all his customers personal service. If I ask him to do a transfer he's right on it. If I want something he doesn't stock he'll order it for me. To me, that's definitely worth the few extra bucks.

 

[allen-1]

Something else to consider: a relationship with your dealer.
I have been doing business for about three years now with one dealer (at the Mill). He doesn't stock a huge variety of guns, he doesn't have a fancy showroom with nice glass cases, he doesn't do "doorbusters" or "I'll beat any advertised price" but he is RELIABLE & HONEST and gives all his customers personal service. If I ask him to do a transfer he's right on it. If I want something he doesn't stock he'll order it for me. To me, that's definitely worth the few extra bucks.

I picked up a PCC from my local gunshop yesterday. Charge for transfer - none.

I shoot with these guys, I do business with these guys.

 

[BrianWilson]

Hit LGS yesterday. Very competitive, courteous and professional. Looked like many items were at or below internet......and that's before adding on cost and delay of shipping.

 

[Wickedcoolname]

What wrong with duran duran?

Doctor Duran Duran was the name of a character in the sci-fi movie from the 1968 called Barbarella. Back when Jane Fonda piece of azz.

 

[drgrant]

I have to say, given this craziness, I'm ready to peruse my safe to see what MA-compliant guns I can drop off for consignment at my local shop this weekend. CRAZY out there!!!!

Lol unless your safe is filled with pre 94 ARs and AKs, or 18.5" pump shotguns, I can't imagine its going to turn into a lot of "win".

A bit of advice though, go tomorrow not Saturday. You will get more weekend exposure on the product.

 

[mac1911]

OP,

You should know better than to post about the dreaded, ghey .40 on this forum. You seem like a decent guy so allow me to share the little known secret to success:

9mm guys spend 4X more time preparing for range trips than the time they spend actually shooting.

Cool Glock, brah!!!

Lol those 2 remind me of the group shooting their ARs at OCSA and I offered to pay for the cmp matches.
They responded 3 out of 4 , dont you lay down on the ground and 2 responded , Im zeroed for CQ.... franco yelled out, dont waste your f***ing time JOHN. Come on your running the pits, fun stuff everywhere these days