A little help chosing a gun...

[Jay G]

I figured there's very little that gun enthusiasts like better than talking about which gun they're looking to buy next... So I thought I'd offer this up.

I'm planning on getting a rifle in the near- to very near-future. My armory is chock-full of shotguns and pistols, but rather lean on centerfire rifles (I've only got four - two M1 carbines in sad shape, one ancient Mannlicher-Carcano, and a Marlin Model 336 lever action in .30-30). So, needless to say, I've got a gaping hole in my armory.

I'm also rather short on funds, so the arms under consideration aren't going to be on the pricey side (i.e. no full-blown AR-15s). This also means that guns that shoot hard-to-find (read: pricey) ammo are out as well (there's a reason the Carcano is a safe queen, and that's because the Norma 6.5mm ammo is something ridiculous like $40 for 20 rounds. NFW).

I'm torn between a battle rifle like a WASR-10 or FN/FAL (if I can find one that's MA legal) or a bolt-action rifle like a Mosin-Nagant or M48 Mauser for long-range ability. The bolties have the advantage of being cheaper (Four Seasons has M/Ns for $100 - $150, and M48 Mausers for ~ $200). The semi-autos have the advantage of firing cheaper ammo (esp. the WASR-10).

So, fellow Northeast Shooters posters, what's your advice on my next rifle?

 

[Nickle]

Being the owner of EVERY one of the above mentioned rifles, with the only exception being that I have a VZ-24, not an M48 (the M48 was a copy of the VZ-24, slightly updated), I'll give you a little insight.

You won't be happy with just one.

I'd suggest looking for a good deal on a FAL to start with. Look over at FALFiles to get an education of what to look for and what to stay away from. Mine is a Century L1A1 and it works great.

IF money is REAL tight, start with a Mosin. Get a 91/30, they're more fun to shoot. M38's and M44's kick hard. I've got a 91/30 and a Finnish M24 (very rare). 91/30's wholesale for just about $60 to $80, depending on condition.

The WASR can be really fun to shoot, ammo is usually cheap. Same for the SKS, but they're less fun to shoot.

IF you really want the AR, look into building it yourself. Then you can buy the parts as you go, though it can cost a little more.

The last thing I suggest, is read Boston's Gun Bible (fredsm14stocks.com carries it).

 

[Jay G]

Nickle,

You won't be happy with just one.

Heh. I knew I was forgetting something in the intro.

Eventually I'd like to get one of each. The REAL question is "Which rifle should I buy first"...

 

[Admin]

I wish I could help you Jay, but I don't know anything about those rifles.

D

 

[Adam_MA]

I voted Mossin Nagant. I have one (manufactured by Remington, hex receiver) Great fun to shoot, and ammo is reasonable. Also there are sites where you can buy EVERY damn part you would need to replace for short $.

Just my .02

Adam

 

[Lynne]

I had a MN - damn, that thing kicked like a mule! - which I sold to Kittery TP for a pistol that hubby had his eye on. Anywho...I do have an SKS and it's a sweet little thing. That's the only rifle that I've really been shooting a lot. The ammo isn't expensive and, although the prices have been going up on SKS's and the like, they're still pretty affordable.

 

[Nickle]

And the real answer is how much can you afford right now?

A decent FAL will set you back over $400, closer to $600 for a really good one. Make sure you shoot it first. Stay away from a Hesse receiver IF you buy a Century. Imbel receivered Century FALS can be found, and they're good. There's been a LOT of barrel timing comments about the Hesse receivered FALS. IF a Hesse receivered FAL shows up, and there's one in the Marketplace here right now, INSIST on shooting it. IF it zero's OK without either the front or rear sight being drastically to one side, it's probably OK. I just looked, and see you've looked into it. PM LenS about legality. I think the "muzzle attachment" on that is a fake supressor, and may be Federally Legal (before last Sep), under the now expired 94 AWB. What I'm not sure of is Mass's law.

The Mosin I mentioned. Ammo wholsesales for about $44 for 440 rounds, +$7.50 shipping for under $500 total. It is corrosive, but can be cleaned.

Look into a VZ-24 or M24/47 instead of the M48. Prices may be cheaper. If the deal is for a sight unseen gun, stick with the M48. Some VZ-24's can be really rough shape.

The WASR goes from $200 to $350 wholesale, depending on what you get.

An SKS goes from $75 to $200 wholesale, depending on when, and what conditiion. The cheaper ones are well used, and I don't mean used well.

A RomAK 3 may be the ticket. They can be pricey, though. Wholseale from $500 to $800.

 

[Jay G]

The decision has been made:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/071305openletter.htm

The ATF has taken it upon itself to stop all further importation of FNs and AK- variants.

This, of course, means that existing guns will start to become MUCH more expensive.

The WASR-10 will be purchased VERY soon, quite possibly before this weekend.

 

[Hawgleg44]

Well, I voted for the Mauser, but I wouldn't really rule out the others, either.

I've had four SKS's before, and just traded my last one a few weeks ago. I had two cheap (back when they were cheap) Chinese and two laminated Russians. All were decent shooters, but nothing special. I rarely used them.

I had two Mosin M44's, both Polish (just like me [lol] ), and I still do have one. Not the most accurate thing in the world, but a fun shooter for a low ammo cost.

I also had a Century FAL Sporter with the thumbhole stock. I went through sending two of them back before I got one where the barrel was timed. But, even with milsurp ammo (preferably non-corrosive), it's still one of the more expensive guns to shoot. I used to buy the Cavim S. American military ammo, non-corrosive, boxer primed from Claflin Cartridge Company for $159/1000 shipped. Those days are long gone.

I wouldn't be without some form of AK in my safe. I had 4 of them for a while, but I'm down to one now. The nicest AK's out there are the milled Bulgarians, but they are pricy. A nice SA-93 or SLR-95 (I've had both) go for a little below $600 now, even with the thumbhole stock on them. I kept my pre-ban Polytech underfolder now. Definately a fun shooter.

Now for the Mausers. I own or have owned just about all of them at one point. 7x57's, 6.5x55's (If you can find an affordable Swede, pick it up!), and 8x57's. I even had an unissued, 98K that was brought back from Italy by a GI. Absolutely perfect condition. I traded it even for a NIB Colt SP-1 Carbine made in 1972.

You didn't mention any bad guns there, but I would probably get the most use out of the Mauser. But, just think about it, and see if you can sneak one of each into your collection!

 

[Nickle]

That would be a smart move.

 

[SiameseRat]

I chose the WASR-10 just becuase I want one, they're cheap and they look cool... I'm simple.

 

[Hawgleg44]

Yeah, everybody should have an AK varient. Just make sure you have enough mags for it. I don't yet!

 

[dwarven1]

The WASR goes from $200 to $350 wholesale, depending on what you get.

I see Carl is getting $350 for one at FS Guns.

Now... one little question. What is a WASR exactly?

Never mind... google is a wonderful thing. Looks like an AK-47 clone. Maybe I'll pop over to Four Seasons next week.

Ross

 

[Nickle]

Now... one little question. What is a WASR exactly?

If you do come up Labor Day weekend, you'll not only see one, you can shoot it.

 

[M1911]

I think that you'll find the limiting factor on the SKS, Mosin Nagant, and AKs are the sights. And on the SKS and AKs, the terrible short sight radius doesn't help either.

The FAL has better sights and a longer sight radius, but it's a friggin boat anchor. Great big heavy thing.

I've got an SKS, 3 AKs, a FAL, a Mosin Nagant, and a Swedish Mauser. The only rifles that I shoot with any bit of frequency are my AR15s and M1A. Yes, they cost more, but inaccurate rifles just aren't interesting.

I say save your money and buy an AR.

 

[dwarven1]

I say save your money and buy an AR.

Well... I was thinking of getting an M1, but I had a choice this weekend - go to the CMP class at Riverside on Sunday or a blacksmithing class at Old Sturbridge Village on Saturday. I'm a dwarf - which do you think I went to?!

So I'll need to find another CMP session; I'm going to be in Sodom-on-the-Hudson in October, so I'll miss out on the last Riverside CMP class.

So... what does a decent AR15 cost, anyway? I'm really just looking for a centerfire rifle to have a little fun with, not seriously compete, like Derek. for that matter, how much does .223 ammo run, anyway? I'm not set up to reload yet.

Ross

 

[Nickle]

Ross, build your own AR-15. A complete one will run about $800 or more, if you're getting something decent. I suggest a 20" barrel.

They aren't hard to build, especially if you buy the upper already assembled. The Tech Manuals are available for download in either the Build it Yourself or the Gunsmithing areas, here. I've built mine, and can tell you they aren't hard to do.

223 Ammo can be had fairly cheap as well.

But, the supply of M1's is rumoured to be getting tight. I don't know how true that is, so DON'T take my word for it.

 

[News Shooter]

I love my WASR-10

I have no idea about the others but I chose the WASR because:

1. It was cheap
2. It came with hi cap magazines
3. I love the look of AK's

So far, no problems, no jams..just fun

 

[Len-2A Training]

Well... I was thinking of getting an M1, but I had a choice this weekend - go to the CMP class at Riverside on Sunday or a blacksmithing class at Old Sturbridge Village on Saturday. I'm a dwarf - which do you think I went to?!

So I'll need to find another CMP session; I'm going to be in Sodom-on-the-Hudson in October, so I'll miss out on the last Riverside CMP class.

So... what does a decent AR15 cost, anyway? I'm really just looking for a centerfire rifle to have a little fun with, not seriously compete, like Derek. for that matter, how much does .223 ammo run, anyway? I'm not set up to reload yet.

Ross

A decent AR15 (Bushmaster or Rock Rivers will cost ~$800 out the door. Ammo costs ~$3-4/box (20).

 

[Hawgleg44]

Check out the classifieds on AR15.com and you will find some good deals there, too. I've bought several uppers, and a LOT of handguns, off the Equipment Exchange there and have had nothing but excellent experiences.

Or, it's simple enough to build your own AR and save yourself hundreds of dollars. Just get a stripped lower (around $100-125, my friend has two, consecutively SN'd, Eagle Arms, Armalite for $250 for both ), a lower parts kit for $80, buttstock (used for around $30), a handguard set (again used for very little money) and a complete upper. You can buy the upper new from GGG or A1 Sales, or get a used one from a quality manufacturer (Bushy, Eagle Arms, Rock River Arms or Colt) for the same money (recommended).

For around $600-650, you can build one, in exactly the configuration you want, easily. Just make sure you build it in post-ban configuration since you are in MA, and you'll be all set. The "hardest" part is assembling the lower parts kit in the receiver, but I have a link to complete instructions on AR15.com.

And, any questions at all, especially about keeping it MA legal, just ask.

Also, when it comes to ammo, pay a little extra for brass cased ammo. Stay away from Wolf. I used it for years and never had a problem. Then, a friend and I were shooting one day and he got a fired cast stuck in the chamber, and the extractor ripped off the rim. He was using the older laquer coated Wolf. Then, a few minutes later, I got one of the new polymer coated rounds stuck the same way. Of course, neither of us had a cleaning rod to pound the rounds out, so both AR's were down for the day.

To me, that's more of a problem than just the guns going down. The extractors of both guns ripped the steel rim off the rounds when they got stuck. I'm afraid of damaging the extractor, so I don't shoot Wolf at all anymore.

 

[Bugs100]

I like the Ruger SS mini 14 in .223. I saw a brand new one for $500

 

[Nickle]

Try the Mini 14 and the AR BEFORE you purchase the Ruger. You may find yourself buying an AR.

 

[Hawgleg44]

The AR platform has many advantages to the Ruger.

Full capacity mags are plentiful, even pre-bans for MA residents. Even now that the AWB has expired for most of the rest of the country, Ruger still refuses to sell any magazine over 10-rounds for their rifles to anyone but law enforcement. That's enough of a reason right there not to support that company.

I've never seen a Mini-14 that was nearly as accurate at 100-200 yards as even the worst AR I've shot.

Anything you could possibly want for the AR, from lights, sight options, stock options, muzzle devices, ANYTHING, can be had for a reasonable price.

If you like your AR and want to shoot a different caliber, from .22lr, 7.62x39. 6.8, .300 Whisper, 9mm, .40 S&W, .45acp, .50 Beowulf and loads of others, all you have to do is swap uppers most of the time, and sometimes buy different mags. If you go with a pistol round, you will have to buy a conversion block to slip in your magwell.

Basically, you can't even compare a Mini-14 to an AR.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I fully concur with Hawleg's comments here.

AR is the only way to go!

Pre-ban CAR-15 is the best way to go! [twisted]

 

[dwarven1]

I've been reading the replies, and I have a couple of thoughts on the subject.

1 - $800 is an awful lot of $$ for something I'm not sure will be more than a casual thing for me.

2 - I mostly shoot pistol; I'm just looking for something to do a little target shooting with. I'm planning to take some more courses in pistol shooting - need to get my speed up - and again, I don't think I'm going to put enough time into riflery to justfy the cost of an AR when I could spend a third of that for an AK clone.

I might just hold off until after Labor day so I can choose more intelligently; I haven't shot either AK or AR. (M-1, yes, but now I need to find a CMP shoot so I can get my cert. I missed Riverside's last one, and I'll be away for their next one).

Ross

 

[Len-2A Training]

CMP shoots are all over the place, except in the Winter. Braintree R&P holds them (public welcome) each month (3rd Sat). Other clubs do as well.

Once you shoot the AR15, I can almost guarantee that you'll become addicted to it!! [twisted] You'll be shooting it a whole lot more than you anticipate.

 

[Admin]

Ross,

When we get together for the fall shooting trip you can try my AR and see how you like it. It's heavy though 15.5 lbs, but I weighted it down for match shooting. And it's accurate.

D

 

[Bugs100]

Thanks you changed my mind about getting a Ruger Mini. What do you think of a bolt action Kimber in 7mm. It has a high powered scope and a bull barrell. I want some thing very accurate.

 

[TonyD]

Thanks you changed my mind about getting a Ruger Mini. What do you think of a bolt action Kimber in 7mm. It has a high powered scope and a bull barrell. I want some thing very accurate.

All depends on what type barrel, how many rounds through it, what type and power scope, what you want to do with the rifle and how many $$'s.

 

[M1911]

I concur with hawleg on the Mini-14. Not accurate and reliable std capacity mags are as scarce as hen's teeth. You'll spend a whole lot more than $800 to make a Mini-14 as accurate as a straight out of the box $800 AR. If you want a light, cheap, inaccurate rifle, then an AK will do everything a Mini-14 will do and for less money.

Concerning Kimber rifles, if you think AR's are expensive then you haven't priced a Kimber rifle. My 8400 in .270 WSM cost around $1200, not including scope, base, and rings, so figure $1600 MINIMUM, depending upon your taste in scopes. The good news is that it is wonderfully light. The bad news is that an 870 with full power slugs hurts a lot less. I'm not sure how accurate the gun is -- it hurts so much to shoot from a rest that I'm flinching bigtime.

M1911