A 2-year-old boy accidentally shot and killed his mom after reaching into her purse.

This is a terrible tragedy. [sad2]

My mother never carried a gun, but I remember when I was a little kid I reached into my mothers purse once, and only once.
She gave me a smack that still hurts!
I knew from then-on that her purse was absolutely OFF LIMITS and never touched it again.
Too bad her child didn't learn this lesson soon enough.
 
Fox Boston just reported the gun was in a purse designed to carry a fire arm and that she was a Nuclear Scientist at the Idaho National laboratory

She and her husband often practiced at a range.
 
My mother never carried a gun, but I remember when I was a little kid I reached into my mothers purse once, and only once.
She gave me a smack that still hurts!
I knew from then-on that her purse was absolutely OFF LIMITS and never touched it again.

I also learned this lesson as a child. Never, ever go in my mother's pocketbook for anything. To this day, if a woman says something like "they keys are in my pocketbook, will you take them out for me?" I bring her the bag...I'm not venturing inside that pocketbook ever!
 
And here it is:
"Then, in the back of the store, near the electronics section, the purse was left unattended for a moment."

Kids are more capable than people think.


Exactly.

“They are painting Veronica as irresponsible, and that is not the case,”

Uhm, she left a loaded gun out of her direct control and near a child. If that isn't irresponsible I don't know what is.
 
Exactly.

“They are painting Veronica as irresponsible, and that is not the case,”

Uhm, she left a loaded gun out of her direct control and near a child. If that isn't irresponsible I don't know what is.

Umm...and that underscores the fundamental difference between back east nanny state thinking and gun culture state thinking. If we take this thinking to its conclusion every firearm out of direct control should have a trigger lock and voila we have the odious Mass Gun Control Storage Laws. Unless you have lived in a gun culture state like Idaho or Arizona, out west you probably aren't going to "get it." I would respectfully submit to you and anyone else that by Idaho gun culture standards she did due her due diligence. Her firearm was secured in a special compartment in a purse specifically designed for concealed carry. "But, but..off body carry, bad..." you will sputter. Well, off body carry is a legitimate carry technique and going into a Wal Mart with your gat off body in a small town in Idaho (substitute Arizona and about half a dozen other western states) is no big deal because it's a world that many of you fantasize about but on one level can't totally comprehend because you have never experienced it. There is a lot I'd like to write about it, but I dare not let my statements be misconstrued, but suffice to say, if you are of a certain demographic racially or ethnically, speak English as a first language, and are of a certain age, the kind of world that the victim and her family live in mirrors a distant past in America that some of us remember and most of you will sadly never experience.

A key dynamic in gun culture is that firearms are inherently dangerous things, and are not foolproof. There will be tragedies such as this. We do are due diligence to eliminate being in risk adverse environments. To leave a gun off body in a zippered case in a CCW purse wouid be unthinkable in Massachusetts but less so in Idaho IMO. What happened was a Perfect Storm, a confluence of events that are unlikely to happen again and for which the odds have to astronomical. This isn't a couple of homies playing with mamma's current baby daddy's Raven .25 in the inner city of Philadelphia and let's not put it in the same category (although some would, maybe even some people here, I don't honestly know). This wasn't some hunter blasting away at a hiker a half hour after sunset. This is one of those totally out there weird and anomalous things that happen which defy conventional wisdom (other than reinforce the "don't carry off body fanbois") and tends to reinforce the idea that I harbor that when it is your time to go, it is time to go and the fates will find a way but that's as far as i am going with that.

YMMV but I wouldn't be so quick to blame the mom here given the context of the culture she lived in.
 
I bought my first gun twenty years ago as a Wyoming resident, then lived there with it for three years before moving on. I think anyone would call Wyoming a gun-culture state, then and now.

Even then, I would never have felt comfortable leaving my gun within reach of a 2-year- old unless it was locked up or un-chambered. YMMV, but that just doesn't pass the common sense test to me.

I think Mark is generally right, though, that handgun ownership in these states is viewed differently than here, and that it's impossible for folks from here to fully understand.
 
I wonder if it was the free state model with no manual safety, or if she just left it off.

There's a lot of publicity on this one, could affect Smiths willingness to ditch thumb safeties on CC pistols in the future.

6.5lbs is a solid weight for a carry trigger, surprised the kid pulled it.
 
After you have had children you learn to never underestimate what they can do. Last time I checked a zipper was not real hard for a 2 year old to manipulate and hardly a deterrent to access inside a purse.
 
After you have had children you learn to never underestimate what they can do. Last time I checked a zipper was not real hard for a 2 year old to manipulate and hardly a deterrent to access inside a purse.

My child at two was more physically able than some, a zipper wouldn't have slowed him down. Child locks on drawers only presented a minor challenge. Gotta know your child. So unfortunate but only takes a few seconds. Most of us with kids have had that "oh Crap, this could have really been bad" moment. For some, it really was that bad...
 
This really makes me sad, with a newborn now. I have been thinking about how to avoid this, other than safe firearms practice/training on both the parents and child's part I don't see how this is avoidable.

What is the statistical chance of this happening? The most recent data from 2011 attributes the number to be around 600 (http://www.nssf.org/PDF/research/IIR_InjuryStatistics2013.pdf)

More so, here are the stats for all accidental deaths from the CDC:

All unintentional injury deaths
-Number of deaths: 126,438
-Deaths per 100,000 population: 40.6
-Cause of death rank: 5

Unintentional fall deaths
-Number of deaths: 27,483
-Deaths per 100,000 population: 8.8

Motor vehicle traffic deaths
-Number of deaths: 33,783
-Deaths per 100,000 population: 10.8

Unintentional poisoning deaths
-Number of deaths: 36,280
-Deaths per 100,000 population: 11.6

Which leads me to believe that accidental firearm deaths are statically small at .4%, not even a whole number.
 
My observations:

Multitasking, and change of routine, contributed to this.

She was multitasking. In fairness, many (most?) women are good at multitasking. But watching a 2-year old in a shopping carriage, shopping at Walmart, minding your three very mobile nieces and nephews, and getting used to your new method of carry (off body/purse) are 4 different activities that each on its own requires one's full attention. Divert attention to any of those activities 1 through 4, and the other 3 things receive less attention. Even if momentarily.

If you're being attentive to your son, you're not 100% watching your nephews + nieces. If you're looking at new pants or shoes, or your smartphone, your eyes are not 100% on your son, and your nieces/nephews could be 2 departments away.

Change of routine: off-body purse carry was, apparently, new to her. She had probably left her purse in a shopping carriage with her son 100 times prior. But this time, it had a gun in it, and her attention went elsewhere for just moments. [sad2]
 
This really makes me sad, with a newborn now. I have been thinking about how to avoid this, other than safe firearms practice/training on both the parents and child's part I don't see how this is avoidable.

What is the statistical chance of this happening? The most recent data from 2011 attributes the number to be around 600 (http://www.nssf.org/PDF/research/IIR_InjuryStatistics2013.pdf)

More so, here are the stats for all accidental deaths from the CDC:

All unintentional injury deaths
-Number of deaths: 126,438
-Deaths per 100,000 population: 40.6
-Cause of death rank: 5

Unintentional fall deaths
-Number of deaths: 27,483
-Deaths per 100,000 population: 8.8

Motor vehicle traffic deaths
-Number of deaths: 33,783
-Deaths per 100,000 population: 10.8

Unintentional poisoning deaths
-Number of deaths: 36,280
-Deaths per 100,000 population: 11.6

Which leads me to believe that accidental firearm deaths are statically small at .4%, not even a whole number.

I posted this the other day, 2012 data pulled in 2014 http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...l-Firearm-Accident-Comparisons?highlight=NSSF
 
Its not all that extraordinary. Charlie is 16 months old, can manipulate doorknobs, latches, "childproof" medicine bottles (tested this by handing him an empty one) and has freakish upper body strength - he actually climbed onto the baseboard heater in his playroom, pulled himself up the windowframe and pulled my cellphone off where I was keeping it from him, or so I thought, with one arm, making a mad dash with it.

I don't really want to get into blaming the woman, as many have on the comment boards of say, Huffington Post, but it stands to reason that OBC, even with special compartments, is not a mode I'd ever consider - if not for him, just the gut churn factor of having it stolen if carrying a tactical man-purse.



Well in the usual rush to judgement and the predilection of some on NES to blame the victim, it would appear, assuming the article is correct, that the victim used a special CCW purse gun was in a zippered compartment which puts an entirely different take on the tragic event. I am still amazed at the dexterity and strength of the two year old, but for those of you who have toddlers of that age, I guess maybe its not that extraordinary.
 
There is a lesson here for all who carry regularly on-body. The switch to off-body carry requires a massive change in your personal mindset, training and safety procedures.

On-body carry is simple. When you dress in the morning, you inspect your gun, holster it, and forget about it until you undress. You typically dress and undress by your safe or lock-box, so your gun is either on your person or locked up. You know that your carefully chosen holster will keep the gun safe, so you don't need to worry about it. Your mind is free to concentrate on other tasks, since you don't need to think about your gun.

Off-body carry requires a totally different degree of diligence, and gun-consciousness. Unless it's locked up or on your person, you have to constantly be aware of the location of your gun, and who could access it. Whatever else your doing cannot take precedence over your gun-consciousness.

I avoid off-body carry like the plague, because it's so hard to do properly, especially if you have years of on-body practice. It's far too easy to let some crisis draw your attention away from your purse, or whatever contains your gun. With little kids, it only takes a moment.

One incident in particular drove this point home for me. I was using a pocket holster at the time, and a little kid spilled a full mug of very hot chocolate in my lap. I had boxers on, and all present were family, so I got out of those pants in a big hurry. Then another crisis arose and I started to put down the pants to go deal with that new crisis, until I remembered what was in the pocket. I still feel a sense of panic when I think of what might have happened had I put the pants down.

My routine worked as long as the gun was on my body. I had not developed a routine for the gun being off-body, and all my previous experience with on-body carry gave me false confidence that the gun was safe during the day. Now, my off-body carry strategy involves a constant white-knuckle grip on the gun or its container. I *really* hate off-body carry, because you can't concentrate on anything else.

This is why all my HD long guns have Giles slings. I "wear" them so I never need to put them down.

I know nothing about this thread's tragedy beyond the links listed elsewhere in this thread. It sounds like a smart, experienced shooter made the transition from on-body carry to off-body carry without sufficiently changing her mindset and safety procedures. This is *very* easy to do. As I think about the training materials and literature I've read, I don't think this danger gets as much attention as it should. I know I'll be doing more in the future to make my students aware of this particular pitfall.
 
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There is a lesson here for all who carry regularly on-body. The switch to off-body carry requires a massive change in your personal mindset, training and safety procedures.

On-body carry is simple. When you dress in the morning, you inspect your gun, holster it, and forget about it until you undress. You know that your carefully chosen holster will keep the gun safe, so you don't need to worry about it. Your mind is free to concentrate on other tasks, since you don't need to think about your gun.

Off-body carry requires a totally different degree of diligence, and gun-consciousness. Unless it's locked up or on your person, you have to constantly be aware of the location of your gun, and who could access it. Whatever else your doing cannot take precedence over your gun-consciousness.

I avoid off-body carry like the plague, because it's so hard to do properly, especially if you have years of on-body practice. It's far too easy to let some crisis draw your attention away from your purse, or whatever contains your gun. With little kids, it only takes a moment.

One incident in particular drove this point home for me. I was using a pocket holster at the time, and a little kid spilled a full mug of very hot chocolate in my lap. I had boxers on, and all present were family, so I got out of those pants in a big hurry. Then another crisis arose and I started to put down the pants to go deal with that new crisis, until I remembered what was in the pocket. I still feel a sense of panic when I think of what might have happened had I put the pants down.

This is why all my HD long guns have Giles slings. I "wear" them so I never need to put them down.

I know nothing about this thread's tragedy beyond the links listed elsewhere in this thread. It sounds like a smart, experienced shooter made the transition from on-body carry to off-body carry without sufficiently changing her mindset and safety procedures. This is *very* easy to do. As I think about the training materials and literature I've read, I don't think this danger get as much attention as it should. I know I'll be doing more in the future to make my students aware of this particular pitfall.

What I said. But you said it better.

+1
 
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