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9mm Pocket gun with second strike capabilities?
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45collector
NES Member
Hornady makes the best 9x18 hollowpoint round available right now. I have two 25-round boxes. They are pretty hard to find. They function perfectly in any of my Makarovs but I have not tried them in the CZ 82 yet as I don't carry it.
Say you take your SD pistol to range every month and fire 20 or 40 rounds of your favorite SD ammo and every round goes bang. Then in an exciting moment out in the real world, you point the pistol at a bad guy and it doesn't go bang, what are the odds that it's a bad round or a problem with the striker? I would think that it's more likely a user error. Maybe something with safety, or the mag release, or the slide caught on something, or whatever.
Depending on your pocket size the SW99c or P99c are both pretty small and second strike capable. I have a full size SW99 now but I had the compact in .40 and it fit my pocket well, and I'm no big guy, 6ft 150lbs.
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Let’s see whether this old thread can be resuscitated.
I am an instructor and expert witness on guns, training, homicides, and intentional and unintentional injuries. I will not carry a primary or secondary defensive firearm that lacks second strike capability.
The reason has nothing to do with ammo quality or the validity of the tap-rack-bang failure drill.
It has to do with two other poorly appreciated realities.
1. 90% of the time a centerfire round does not fire on the first primer strike, it will on the second. That is NOT due to issues with the cartridge or quality, it’s usually due to some influences impairing full headspacing in the chamber. In practice or pressure, this could simply be due to limp-wristing or an unusual or imperfect shooting grip or firing angle relative to the wrist and arm. Like in a real fight. The other influence is drag on the slide while shooting or attempting to shoot against cover, clothing, other interference, in grappling conditions, or an attempted takeaway. In this phenomenon, some of the firing pin energy is absorbed by the cartridge headspacing all the way. The NEXT primer strike is upon a fully headspaced cartridge that presents the primer for the full energy absorption, as the cartridge can no longer yield at all. That’s why second strike works, 90% of the time, after a “click” replaces the expected “bang.”
2. Gunfights do not look at all like range practice.There is no easy way to replicate the chaos and decision pressure of a real handgun engagement. And most popular handguns (striker) and nearly all pocket pistols lack second strike. And it is a fallacy to think that you will have two dry uninjured operational and otherwise unoccupied hands available, or some optimal cool tactical alternative, like your belt or shoe, and time, to do a failure clearance drill in a close quarters combat emergency. IMHO, we should teach trigger-tap-rack-bang-run. Second strike works.
This eliminates Glocks, which are popular because they’re cheap to make, and were oddly effective in marketing. Cops are basically trained to a low standard, and shoot themselves and each other and unintentionally shoot others with striker guns every day. Glocks should not come out of a holster without a striker control plate to mitigate one part part of their inherent deficiencies, an alarming propensity to shoot the operator during reholstering.
A S&W 4-digit traditional SA/DA, corrected for inflation, would cost three times as much as a Glock. Striker guns have yielded a lot of success on firing range qualifications, and a lot of tragedies on the street. They are not great guns. I want my guns to reliably shoot when needed, and reliably NOT shoot when not shooting is indicated. Not shooting when severely overtasked in or immediately after a life-or-death violent crisis is not to be taken for granted.
I don’t care about your “finger safety;” that’s nonsense, proven in studies with experienced shooters and instrumented guns, told to keep their fingers off the triggers. They swore they did, but they didn’t, and when startled, contracted the trigger finger. Failure to account for human behavior is not tolerated in aviation or surgery. It should not be allowed in handgun design and associated manual of arms.
Taurus guns are not all bad or good, much like other manufacturers.
99.9999999999% of the time you will not be engaging in a gunfight with your gun. It’s worth thinking about what you want your gun to do or not do most of the time. A cocked single action gun with no real safety (Glock) does not meet my criteria. I own three, as it’s a Glock world for training. I do not daily carry them.
Compact/pocketable/deep concealment centerfire semiautomatic guns with second strike include the KelTec P-11, Taurus 709 mentioned, and the KelTec P32, but not the P3AT. The only .380 I know with SSC is the S&W Bodyguard.
I own 4 P11s, distributed around my various homes so I don’t have to check a bag when I fly. In terms of power per ounce of gun and retention system, reliability, and inherent safety, the P11, a game-changer when introduced, is hard to beat. With the 12-round magazine and belt clip, the loaded system offers 3325 foot-pounds of impact energy in 24 ounces, with no spring tension at rest, using standard pressure HST 124 grain, and good penetration and expansion.
The P11 is not cool, or sexy, or a satisfying range demo tool. It has a trigger pull like a staple gun. I have a lot of guns. In places where I must balance readiness with serious concealment, I end up with a P-11 most of the time. It will never go off unless you want it to, and will when you do. I believe KT stopped making the P11 because the patent expired and SCCY copied it.
It is a long step down to the next reasonably mainstream (affordable/available) smaller and lighter alternative, the Bodyguard .380. And a long step from there to the KT P32. Not a lot of options in between.
A .22 magnum snubbie with an alloy frame may work, depending on your body, community, and weather. Revolvers give you a second ROUND for your second strike. I would not trust my life to any pocketable rimfire semi-auto.
Let the flaming begin.
I am an instructor and expert witness on guns, training, homicides, and intentional and unintentional injuries. I will not carry a primary or secondary defensive firearm that lacks second strike capability.
The reason has nothing to do with ammo quality or the validity of the tap-rack-bang failure drill.
It has to do with two other poorly appreciated realities.
1. 90% of the time a centerfire round does not fire on the first primer strike, it will on the second. That is NOT due to issues with the cartridge or quality, it’s usually due to some influences impairing full headspacing in the chamber. In practice or pressure, this could simply be due to limp-wristing or an unusual or imperfect shooting grip or firing angle relative to the wrist and arm. Like in a real fight. The other influence is drag on the slide while shooting or attempting to shoot against cover, clothing, other interference, in grappling conditions, or an attempted takeaway. In this phenomenon, some of the firing pin energy is absorbed by the cartridge headspacing all the way. The NEXT primer strike is upon a fully headspaced cartridge that presents the primer for the full energy absorption, as the cartridge can no longer yield at all. That’s why second strike works, 90% of the time, after a “click” replaces the expected “bang.”
2. Gunfights do not look at all like range practice.There is no easy way to replicate the chaos and decision pressure of a real handgun engagement. And most popular handguns (striker) and nearly all pocket pistols lack second strike. And it is a fallacy to think that you will have two dry uninjured operational and otherwise unoccupied hands available, or some optimal cool tactical alternative, like your belt or shoe, and time, to do a failure clearance drill in a close quarters combat emergency. IMHO, we should teach trigger-tap-rack-bang-run. Second strike works.
This eliminates Glocks, which are popular because they’re cheap to make, and were oddly effective in marketing. Cops are basically trained to a low standard, and shoot themselves and each other and unintentionally shoot others with striker guns every day. Glocks should not come out of a holster without a striker control plate to mitigate one part part of their inherent deficiencies, an alarming propensity to shoot the operator during reholstering.
A S&W 4-digit traditional SA/DA, corrected for inflation, would cost three times as much as a Glock. Striker guns have yielded a lot of success on firing range qualifications, and a lot of tragedies on the street. They are not great guns. I want my guns to reliably shoot when needed, and reliably NOT shoot when not shooting is indicated. Not shooting when severely overtasked in or immediately after a life-or-death violent crisis is not to be taken for granted.
I don’t care about your “finger safety;” that’s nonsense, proven in studies with experienced shooters and instrumented guns, told to keep their fingers off the triggers. They swore they did, but they didn’t, and when startled, contracted the trigger finger. Failure to account for human behavior is not tolerated in aviation or surgery. It should not be allowed in handgun design and associated manual of arms.
Taurus guns are not all bad or good, much like other manufacturers.
99.9999999999% of the time you will not be engaging in a gunfight with your gun. It’s worth thinking about what you want your gun to do or not do most of the time. A cocked single action gun with no real safety (Glock) does not meet my criteria. I own three, as it’s a Glock world for training. I do not daily carry them.
Compact/pocketable/deep concealment centerfire semiautomatic guns with second strike include the KelTec P-11, Taurus 709 mentioned, and the KelTec P32, but not the P3AT. The only .380 I know with SSC is the S&W Bodyguard.
I own 4 P11s, distributed around my various homes so I don’t have to check a bag when I fly. In terms of power per ounce of gun and retention system, reliability, and inherent safety, the P11, a game-changer when introduced, is hard to beat. With the 12-round magazine and belt clip, the loaded system offers 3325 foot-pounds of impact energy in 24 ounces, with no spring tension at rest, using standard pressure HST 124 grain, and good penetration and expansion.
The P11 is not cool, or sexy, or a satisfying range demo tool. It has a trigger pull like a staple gun. I have a lot of guns. In places where I must balance readiness with serious concealment, I end up with a P-11 most of the time. It will never go off unless you want it to, and will when you do. I believe KT stopped making the P11 because the patent expired and SCCY copied it.
It is a long step down to the next reasonably mainstream (affordable/available) smaller and lighter alternative, the Bodyguard .380. And a long step from there to the KT P32. Not a lot of options in between.
A .22 magnum snubbie with an alloy frame may work, depending on your body, community, and weather. Revolvers give you a second ROUND for your second strike. I would not trust my life to any pocketable rimfire semi-auto.
Let the flaming begin.
![[popcorn]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/043.gif "Popcorn [popcorn]")
Please let us know your real name so that I can be sure that I will never hire you as an “expert” witness.
That is complete and utter baloney. Centerfire rounds that do not discharge on the first strike will very, very, very rarely discharge on a second strike. The proper response is tap rack bang right now.
Furthermore, the chance of having an ammunition failure during a gunfight is minuscule. So the whole debate of about second strike is basically pointless.
This has got to be one of the dumbest posts that I’ve read on NES. If you really think that limp wristing or drag on the slide could result in a light strike then you simply don’t understand how a gun works.
The speed of the hammer or striker is a function of the strength of the hammer spring or striker spring. Limp wristing can result in a failure to feed, but not a light stroke. If you have a failure to feed, pulling the trigger again won’t solve the problem — tap rack bang will solve the problem.
Drag on the slide won’t cause a light strike. Drag on the slide could cause the slide to not fully go into battery. Pulling the trigger won’t solve an out of battery slide, but tap rack bang (or smacking the back of the slide) will solve the problem.
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ReluctantDecoy
NES Member
Well, that depends. Do you need an expert on unintentional injuries? Because that's in his resume, apparently.
Rohrbaugh R9 had second strike capability if I remember correctly. If you can find one they’re probably going to be expensive. Remington bought them and they made a .380 version. Designed after the Seecamp. .32 too small?
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I have to disagree with the apocalypse I have a double strike capable firearm and if it doesn’t light of the primer on the first trigger pull it’s not gonna light it of on the 10th trigger pull. In my case it is all related to the primer … how deep it’s set in the casing ect or brand of primers Unlike the original poster I’m not an operator with keltecs scattered about my 4 houses so I have a question… is it better to miss your first shot because in order to have double strike ability you have a very heavy hammer spring which translates to a very heavy long first trigger pull or is it better to hit the first shot out of the holster and not have double strike ability.
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chris_1001
NES Member
Boghog1
NES Member
You do you but I would rather not have guns with the reputation that Tarus and Kel-Tec have over a Glock or a Sig or even an M&P
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Not on a revolver
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
allen-1
NES Member
Correct. Because if it goes "click" a second time, you're in the same position you were, but time has elapsed.
Tap, Rack, Bang.
Practice it.
I believe most models of hammer fired H&Ks can second strike.
However....
Tap, rack, bang is the better thing to train even if a second strike would work because it's a useful thing to train into reflex as first thing to try for any 'click no bang (or no click)' not just hard primer . Drill the thing that is the most likely to solve more problems (stovepipe, ftf, hard primer, bad initial grip) fast. Training this reflex why is we hide a snapcap in the stack periodically. Induced 'failure' drills hone the 'tap rap bang' reflex.
All that said, in my experience, second strike doesn't often work but, when the dust settles at the range, reloading a dud often does work. I suspect this is because, when re-chambered, the alignment of the primer to firing pin is different the second go around. I bother with this rechambering (after inspection) of the dud only so as not to add another round to the dud-bucket needlessly.
However....
Tap, rack, bang is the better thing to train even if a second strike would work because it's a useful thing to train into reflex as first thing to try for any 'click no bang (or no click)' not just hard primer . Drill the thing that is the most likely to solve more problems (stovepipe, ftf, hard primer, bad initial grip) fast. Training this reflex why is we hide a snapcap in the stack periodically. Induced 'failure' drills hone the 'tap rap bang' reflex.
All that said, in my experience, second strike doesn't often work but, when the dust settles at the range, reloading a dud often does work. I suspect this is because, when re-chambered, the alignment of the primer to firing pin is different the second go around. I bother with this rechambering (after inspection) of the dud only so as not to add another round to the dud-bucket needlessly.
Think of the children! Always think of the children. You rack and drop the horrible dangerous dud that can later kill.
Instead you have to keep pressing trigger until damn primer will finally cooperate- 2 times or 10 times- it is all about safety. Or better get shot and die so police will confiscate everything including the dud.
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M1911,
I never said “light strike.” I said failure to FULLY headspace, despite being in battery. It can and does happen, and the first strike typically yields a fully headspaced round for the NEXT strike, which can no longer absorb any of the firing pin/striker energy in yielding, even slightly, in the chamber. So you get a bang on the second strike, because the first one fully headspaced the round. This is not going to happen to you in typical firing range practice conditions. It does happen, and can easily be induced to a surprising extent in most guns, when you slowly move the slide forward just to battery. If has nothing to do with ammo quality. You are right, a bad or badly seated primer that IS an ammo defect is not likely to bang regardless of how many times it’s hit. But that’s quite rare in quality factory defense ammo, and is not what I’m talking about. Consider reading and thinking about what I wrote about (failure to fully headspace), not the different issue (light strike) that you chose to respond about.
Odds are about even that a real gunfight, civilian or LEO, will involve grappling distance or the ground or both. Here is a decent video about denying takeaway, persisting through a takeaway attempt, and controlling cycling to allow or inhibit continuity of fire, depending on your condition and the bad guy’s condition. These are more realistic in many respects than almost all firing range practice. And I imagine you can see how these conditions can yield intentional and expected, or unintentional and unexpected, failures to cycle, go fully into battery, or fully headspace.
Gulla developed the SIRT on the Glock model because his customers (agencies) use Glocks. It is not hard to see how the ability to second strike with one hand, leaving the other to protect, strike, grasp, or interfere, is valuable, rather than the two-handed cycling drill a Glock requires.
The fight becomes a gunfight the moment you begin your draw, regardless of what happened until then. If your practice isn’t at full speed, and leaving you bruised and bleeding at times, consider whether it’s realistic. Training for handgun combat on a firing range is like training for surgery by playing “Operation.” A lot of emergency gun handling does not involve firing.
Happy Feet: You’re talking about defective or variable ammo. I’m not. Try making your gun click instead of bang with good rounds. Simulate a grab attempt during firing, bad grip, mushy arm/wrist, slide drag from clothing or a takeaway attempt. Try to make your gun fail to bang reliably, and when it happens, don’t cycle the clicking round out. (Impossible with strikers). Pull again (DA) or cock and pull again (DA/SA). It will almost always bang when struck a second time. And try brace contact (“G Wrap”) firing and cycling control.
You can block slide action with your hand around the slide; index your non-firing hand off the front sight to keep meat off the muzzle. The force is as if you were trying to bend the slide downward, and both hands must apply force, your grip hand resisting the bend attempt of the non-shooting hand. You can prevent or minimize slide motion this way. You can also place your support hand, or even the thumb of the firing hand FIRMLY against the back of the slide, one-handed. The idea is to prevent it from starting to move and then striking you. It can be done reasonably comfortably a few times with muzzle energies up to about 375 pounds. I have not tried it with higher-powered cartridges.
I train with Gary and Don, among others. Tough motherf***ers, both.
View: https://youtu.be/kBzVNEbFxAY?feature=shared
Agree or not, like Frankenstein’s monster, we have breathed new life into this old topic, second strike capability. I think it merits more consideration than it gets.
I never said “light strike.” I said failure to FULLY headspace, despite being in battery. It can and does happen, and the first strike typically yields a fully headspaced round for the NEXT strike, which can no longer absorb any of the firing pin/striker energy in yielding, even slightly, in the chamber. So you get a bang on the second strike, because the first one fully headspaced the round. This is not going to happen to you in typical firing range practice conditions. It does happen, and can easily be induced to a surprising extent in most guns, when you slowly move the slide forward just to battery. If has nothing to do with ammo quality. You are right, a bad or badly seated primer that IS an ammo defect is not likely to bang regardless of how many times it’s hit. But that’s quite rare in quality factory defense ammo, and is not what I’m talking about. Consider reading and thinking about what I wrote about (failure to fully headspace), not the different issue (light strike) that you chose to respond about.
Odds are about even that a real gunfight, civilian or LEO, will involve grappling distance or the ground or both. Here is a decent video about denying takeaway, persisting through a takeaway attempt, and controlling cycling to allow or inhibit continuity of fire, depending on your condition and the bad guy’s condition. These are more realistic in many respects than almost all firing range practice. And I imagine you can see how these conditions can yield intentional and expected, or unintentional and unexpected, failures to cycle, go fully into battery, or fully headspace.
Gulla developed the SIRT on the Glock model because his customers (agencies) use Glocks. It is not hard to see how the ability to second strike with one hand, leaving the other to protect, strike, grasp, or interfere, is valuable, rather than the two-handed cycling drill a Glock requires.
The fight becomes a gunfight the moment you begin your draw, regardless of what happened until then. If your practice isn’t at full speed, and leaving you bruised and bleeding at times, consider whether it’s realistic. Training for handgun combat on a firing range is like training for surgery by playing “Operation.” A lot of emergency gun handling does not involve firing.
Happy Feet: You’re talking about defective or variable ammo. I’m not. Try making your gun click instead of bang with good rounds. Simulate a grab attempt during firing, bad grip, mushy arm/wrist, slide drag from clothing or a takeaway attempt. Try to make your gun fail to bang reliably, and when it happens, don’t cycle the clicking round out. (Impossible with strikers). Pull again (DA) or cock and pull again (DA/SA). It will almost always bang when struck a second time. And try brace contact (“G Wrap”) firing and cycling control.
You can block slide action with your hand around the slide; index your non-firing hand off the front sight to keep meat off the muzzle. The force is as if you were trying to bend the slide downward, and both hands must apply force, your grip hand resisting the bend attempt of the non-shooting hand. You can prevent or minimize slide motion this way. You can also place your support hand, or even the thumb of the firing hand FIRMLY against the back of the slide, one-handed. The idea is to prevent it from starting to move and then striking you. It can be done reasonably comfortably a few times with muzzle energies up to about 375 pounds. I have not tried it with higher-powered cartridges.
I train with Gary and Don, among others. Tough motherf***ers, both.
View: https://youtu.be/kBzVNEbFxAY?feature=shared
Agree or not, like Frankenstein’s monster, we have breathed new life into this old topic, second strike capability. I think it merits more consideration than it gets.
You are so completely full of crap.
Failure to fully headspace? Baloney. The slide is fully closed or it is not. If it isn’t fully closed, then the hammer won’t fall or the striker won’t let go, and pulling the trigger again won’t do a damn thing. The only viable solution is to slap the slide closed or tap-rack-bang.
In a struggle the slide can be pushed out of battery, which will prevent the gun from firing. Pulling the trigger again won’t close the slide.
There is no such thing as failure to fully headspace.
I‘ve taken over 200 hours of training from many different instructors — Massad Ayoob, Randy Cain, Mike Seeklander, Ben Stoeger, Smith & Wesson Academy, SIG Academy, etc. Some of those instructors were police officers with many decades of experience. Their training ranged from state and local police academies, FLETC, FBI, Gunsite, Federal Air Marshals, etc. You know what they all said is the proper response to a failure to fire? Tap-rack-bang. You want to know how many of them said the proper response is to pull the trigger again (except for a revolver)? 0. You know the number of those instructors who said second-strike was important or required? 0. You know the number of those instructors who claimed there was a thing called “failure to fully headspace”? 0.
Is gunkid out of prison yet?
chris_1001
NES Member
I have a vid of me (in a uspsa competition) with a da/sa gun that hiccuped after a mag change, despite the fact I could keep pulling the trigger and hoping and praying that would fix the issue, I instinctively tap racked and it went bang without me even flinching or thinking about it.
And like @M1911 I’ve done a lot of training with well know trainers. Not one said keep pulling the trigger if it does not go bang.
At what point do you suggest we stop pulling the trigger and really fix the issue with a proven technique? 2, 3, 5 pulls?
Oh. And if I just have one hand free. I’m using the sights off a belt or what to rack it.
And like @M1911 I’ve done a lot of training with well know trainers. Not one said keep pulling the trigger if it does not go bang.
At what point do you suggest we stop pulling the trigger and really fix the issue with a proven technique? 2, 3, 5 pulls?
Oh. And if I just have one hand free. I’m using the sights off a belt or what to rack it.
I believe they headspace on the case mouth.
