Advice on Mag Rifles that are Mass FID Compliant

[CMF]

Beretta CX-4 9mm with a FID ?

Apologies if this is old hat; I have searched for an answer elsewhere.

I would like to get a Beretta CX-4 in 9mm with a FID. If I own only 10 round mags it seems to be a low capacity weapon by the statute (see earlier posts in this thread). However, it would violate the rule I have seen cited here, that a weapon that has been sold with high cap mags (15 rounds in this case) can never be considered low capacity.

Is this a gray area or a definite no-no ? Where does the rule about the bundled mags come from ?

Obviously, this all assumes that I can find a way to buy one without ever being in possession of the high cap mags, perhaps by having the dealer swap them out for me.

Thanks for any advice you have !

 

[vellnueve]

I would not feel comfortable getting a CX-4 with an FID.

 

[Kevlar]

Apologies if this is old hat; I have searched for an answer elsewhere.

I would like to get a Beretta CX-4 in 9mm with a FID. If I own only 10 round mags it seems to be a low capacity weapon by the statute (see earlier posts in this thread). However, it would violate the rule I have seen cited here, that a weapon that has been sold with high cap mags (15 rounds in this case) can never be considered low capacity.

Is this a gray area or a definite no-no ? Where does the rule about the bundled mags come from ?

Obviously, this all assumes that I can find a way to buy one without ever being in possession of the high cap mags, perhaps by having the dealer swap them out for me.

Thanks for any advice you have !

Long story short, if it is available from the manufacturer with a magazine capacity in excess of 10 rounds, it is considered "large capacity", and therefore unavailable with a FID.

 

[Scrivener]

Or one could simply look and see if it is on the "Large Capacity Roster."

 

[GSG]

I also found out that an FID holder that is under 21 years old can NOT have a pistol grip only shotgun. ie no stock to put up against your shoulder, just a pistol grip, because the ATF definition of shotgun includes a stock that goes against the shoulder. The ATF considers that an AOW ( any other weapon), not a shotgun so by Fed law, no pistol only shotguns for those under 21.

Huh?

Or one could simply look and see if it is on the "Large Capacity Roster."

That's not all inclusiv

 

[Kevlar]

Huh?

Mach is partially correct. ATF has ruled you must be 21 to purchase a PG shotgun, but it's not considered an AOW. It's technically "unclassified" by the ATF.

Pistol Grips and Shotguns
Firearms with pistol grips attached:
The definition of a shotgun under the GCA, 18 U.S.C.
§ 921(a)(5), is “a weapon designed or redesigned, made or
remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed
or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of
an explosives to fire through a smooth bore either a number
of ball shot or single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.
Under the GCA, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(29)(A), handgun
means “a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to
be held and fired by the use of a single hand.” Federal law
provides under 18 U.S.C. 922(b)(1), that if the firearm to be
transferred is “other than a rifle or shotgun,” the purchaser
must be 21 years of age or older.
Certain commercially produced firearms do not fall within
the definition of shotgun under the GCA even though
they utilize a shotgun shell for ammunition. For example,
firearms that come equipped with a pistol grip in place of
the buttstock are not shotguns as defined by the GCA.
A firearm with a pistol grip in lieu of the shoulder stock is
not designed to be fired from the shoulder and, therefore,
is not a shotgun. Since it is a firearm “other than a rifle or
shotgun,” the purchaser must be 21 years of age or older.
Additionally, interstate controls apply. The licensee and
transferee must be residents of the same State.
Other questions raised pertain to entries made in the
licensee’s required records with respect to firearm “type.”
These entries should indicate the firearm type as “pistol grip
firearm.”

Age Restriction & Interstate Transfer Reminders
Licensees are reminded that firearm frames, receivers, and
other firearms that are neither handguns nor long guns
(rifles or shotguns) are considered “Other Firearms.” They
cannot be sold or delivered by a licensee to any person under
21 years of age. Additionally, 18 U.S.C. 922(b)(3) states that
a licensee shall not sell or deliver any firearm other than a
shotgun or rifle to any person who does not reside in the
State in which the licensee’s place of business or activity is located;
this restriction includes handguns, pistol grip firearms
utilizing shotgun ammunition, and frames and receivers.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-2009-11.pdf

 

[GSG]

Mach is partially correct. ATF has ruled you must be 21 to purchase a PG shotgun, but it's not considered an AOW. It's technically "unclassified" by the ATF.



http://www.atf.gov/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-2009-11.pdf

I had no idea, thanks for that info. I remembered reading about something like this as a result of the Trolley Square shooting (link here http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/02...r-Trolley-Square-shooting/UPI-97811202925971/) but I didn't know it ran that deep.

 

[CMF]

Or one could simply look and see if it is on the "Large Capacity Roster."

I cannot make sense of this suggestion. The CX-4 9mm is not on the 10-2007 high cap roster. Also, as GSG says, the roster is not necessarily inclusive, indicated by "Weapons not listed on this roster may also be large capacity weapons if ...".

Anyway, thanks all for the advice. After another reading, I dimly begin to see how the obfuscatory language of the statute might mean what you have explained.

 

[GSG]

Apologies if this is old hat; I have searched for an answer elsewhere.

It's not a problem, the Mass. gun laws are quite difficult to make sense out of.

I would like to get a Beretta CX-4 in 9mm with a FID. If I own only 10 round mags it seems to be a low capacity weapon by the statute (see earlier posts in this thread). However, it would violate the rule I have seen cited here, that a weapon that has been sold with high cap mags (15 rounds in this case) can never be considered low capacity.

Is this a gray area or a definite no-no ? Where does the rule about the bundled mags come from ?

Obviously, this all assumes that I can find a way to buy one without ever being in possession of the high cap mags, perhaps by having the dealer swap them out for me.

It would not be legal for someone with an FID to purchase, possess or sell a Beretta CX-4 rifle, because under Massachusetts law it is considered a "large capacity rifle," which MGL 140-121 defines as follows:

“Large capacity weapon”, any firearm, rifle or shotgun: (i) that is semiautomatic with a fixed large capacity feeding device; (ii) that is semiautomatic and capable of accepting, or readily modifiable to accept, any detachable large capacity feeding device; (iii) that employs a rotating cylinder capable of accepting more than ten rounds of ammunition in a rifle or firearm and more than five shotgun shells in the case of a shotgun or firearm; or (iv) that is an assault weapon. The term “large capacity weapon” shall be a secondary designation and shall apply to a weapon in addition to its primary designation as a firearm, rifle or shotgun and shall not include: (i) any weapon that was manufactured in or prior to the year 1899; (ii) any weapon that operates by manual bolt, pump, lever or slide action; (iii) any weapon that is a single-shot weapon; (iv) any weapon that has been modified so as to render it permanently inoperable or otherwise rendered permanently unable to be designated a large capacity weapon; or (v) any weapon that is an antique or relic, theatrical prop or other weapon that is not capable of firing a projectile and which is not intended for use as a functional weapon and cannot be readily modified through a combination of available parts into an operable large capacity weapon.

In Massachusetts, a rifle, shotgun or pistol is considered to be "large capacity" if it is on the large capacity weapons roster or if it was ever shipped from the manufacturer to a civilian (not an LE/military agency) in the US with a magazine that holds more than 10 rounds.

Massachusetts General Laws Chapter 140 Section 129b(6) also says:

(6) A firearm identification card shall not entitle a holder thereof to possess: (i) a large capacity firearm or large capacity feeding device therefor, except under a Class A license issued to a shooting club as provided under section 131 or under the direct supervision of a holder of a Class A license issued to an individual under section 131 at an incorporated shooting club or licensed shooting range; or (ii) a non-large capacity firearm or large capacity rifle or shotgun or large capacity feeding device therefor, except under a Class A license issued to a shooting club as provided under section 131 or under the direct supervision of a holder of a Class A or Class B license issued to an individual under section 131 at an incorporated shooting club or licensed shooting range. A firearm identification card shall not entitle a holder thereof to possess any rifle or shotgun that is, or in such manner that is, otherwise prohibited by law. A firearm identification card shall be valid for the purpose of purchasing and possessing chemical mace, pepper spray or other similarly propelled liquid, gas or powder designed to temporarily incapacitate. Except as otherwise provided herein, a firearm identification card shall not be valid for the use, possession, ownership, transfer, purchase, sale, lease, rental or transportation of a rifle or shotgun if such rifle or shotgun is a large capacity weapon as defined in section 121.

Any violation of this is a serious felony.

Massachusetts General Laws Chapter 269 Section 10(m) says:

(m) Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph (a) or (h), any person not exempted by statute who knowingly has in his possession, or knowingly has under his control in a vehicle, a large capacity weapon or large capacity feeding device therefor who does not possess a valid Class A or Class B license to carry firearms issued under section 131 or 131F of chapter 140, except as permitted or otherwise provided under this section or chapter 140, shall be punished by imprisonment in a state prison for not less than two and one-half years nor more than ten years. The possession of a valid firearm identification card issued under section 129B shall not be a defense for a violation of this subsection; provided, however, that any such person charged with violating this paragraph and holding a valid firearm identification card shall not be subject to any mandatory minimum sentence imposed by this paragraph. The sentence imposed upon such person shall not be reduced to less than one year, nor suspended, nor shall any person convicted under this subsection be eligible for probation, parole, furlough, work release or receive any deduction from his sentence for good conduct until he shall have served such minimum term of such sentence; provided, however, that the commissioner of correction may, on the recommendation of the warden, superintendent or other person in charge of a correctional institution or the administrator of a county correctional institution, grant to such offender a temporary release in the custody of an officer of such institution for the following purposes only: (i) to attend the funeral of a spouse or next of kin; (ii) to visit a critically ill close relative or spouse; or (iii) to obtain emergency medical services unavailable at such institution. Prosecutions commenced under this subsection shall neither be continued without a finding nor placed on file. The provisions of section 87 of chapter 276 relative to the power of the court to place certain offenders on probation shall not apply to any person 17 years of age or over charged with a violation of this section.

The provisions of this paragraph shall not apply to the possession of a large capacity weapon or large capacity feeding device by (i) any officer, agent or employee of the commonwealth or any other state or the United States, including any federal, state or local law enforcement personnel; (ii) any member of the military or other service of any state or the United States; (iii) any duly authorized law enforcement officer, agent or employee of any municipality of the commonwealth; (iv) any federal, state or local historical society, museum or institutional collection open to the public; provided, however, that any such person described in clauses (i) to (iii), inclusive, is authorized by a competent authority to acquire, possess or carry a large capacity semiautomatic weapon and is acting within the scope of his duties; or (v) any gunsmith duly licensed under the applicable federal law.

Since the rifle itself is considered "large capacity," you'd need a minimum of a Class B LTC to purchase or possess one. However, since the large capacity magazines for the rifle are actually pistol magazines, you'd need a Class A LTC to purchase or possess magazines for it that hold more than 10 rounds, even if you had a Class B. There might also be an issue with finding pre-ban high cap mags for this rifle, but it depends on which Beretta pistols it's designed to work with, which is a whole other can of worms.

I cannot make sense of this suggestion. The CX-4 9mm is not on the 10-2007 high cap roster. Also, as GSG says, the roster is not necessarily inclusive, indicated by "Weapons not listed on this roster may also be large capacity weapons if ...".

The issue is what capacity magazines it was shipped with. For instance, the KelTec Sub 2000 can accept high capacity magazines for Glock/Beretta/S&W pistols (depending on which grips you have for the rifle), but as far as I know, they are only ever shipped from the factory with 10 round mags, even to free states, in which case they would be FID compliant.

So any rifle you want to buy needs to have some research done on it. Is this making sense?

 

[CMF]

Thanks GSG. I'm still not clear on where the "never shipped with a high cap mag" rule comes from, or what scrivener's comment meant, but that is not important: for practical purposes I know what I need to make a decision.

 

[Lank]

before I learned that a mini 30 with the original 5 round mag was FID ok, I bought a CZ 527 Carbine bolt action 7.62x39. Shoots real nice

 

[GSG]

I'm still not clear on where the "never shipped with a high cap mag" rule comes from

To be perfectly honest, neither am I, it seems like it's a gray area in Massachusetts law. I've seen that repeated countless times on here, so my guess is that the powers that be (like EOPS, for example) have said that and it stuck.

However, it might come from the last part of MGL 140-131.75, which I've bolded below:

Chapter 140: Section 1313/4. Roster of large capacity rifles, shotguns, firearms, and feeding devices


Section 1313/4. The secretary of public safety shall, with the advice of the gun control advisory board established pursuant to the provisions of section 1311/2, compile and publish a roster of large capacity rifles, shotguns, firearms and feeding devices, all as defined in section 121, and such weapons referred to in clauses Eighteenth to Twenty-first, inclusive, of section 123.

The secretary shall, not less than three times annually, publish the roster in newspapers of general circulation throughout the commonwealth, and shall send a copy thereof to all dealers licensed in the commonwealth under the provisions of said section 122 of said chapter 140; and further, the licensing authority shall furnish said roster to all cardholders and licensees upon initial issuance and upon every renewal of the same.

The secretary may amend the roster upon his own initiative or with the advice of said board. A person may petition the secretary to place a weapon on, or remove a weapon from, the roster, subject to the provisions of this section. A person who so petitions shall give the reasons why the roster should be so amended.

A petition to amend the roster shall be submitted in writing to the secretary and shall be in the form and manner prescribed by the secretary. Upon receipt of the petition to place a weapon on the roster, the secretary shall, within 45 days of receipt of the petition, either notify the petitioner by certified mail that the petition is denied, or it shall modify the roster. An addition to the roster shall be effective on the date it is included in the next publication in newspapers of general circulation as provided under this section.

The secretary may promulgate rules and regulations relative to the appeal of a decision on a petition to modify the roster and any other regulations consistent with the provisions of this section and section 2SS of chapter 29, sections 11 and 14 of chapter 131, sections 121, 122, 122B, 123, 128, 128A, 128B, 129B, 129C, 129D, 130, 131, 131A, 131E, 131F and 131K of chapter 140 to effectuate the purposes of each said section.

I'm posting links to two threads below that dig into the issue pretty deeply as well.

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...rearms-–-explanation-desperately-needed-(long!)

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php/93495-Clarify-this-for-me

for practical purposes I know what I need to make a decision.

Sadly, when it comes to the convoluted Massachusetts laws this is the best that most of us can hope for.

 

[GSG]

CMF, I did a little more digging and found some more info on this subject in this thread:

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...g-Someone-Else-s-Gun-from-another-state/page2

Also, if you're in Mass. with an FID only, you should check out some important info in this thread:

Stuck with an FID? You might be a federally prohibited person