90% of Doctors treat Potential ERPO/Red Flag Patients - 60% Would File ERPO

[MaverickNH]

"Ninety-two of 353 physicians invited (26.1%) completed the survey; 1 respondent reported having filed an ERPO petition. Sixty-six respondents (71.7%) described themselves as not at all familiar with ERPOs. After reading a brief description of the ERPO law, 85 respondents (92.4%) indicated that they encounter patients whom they would consider for an ERPO at least a few times per year. Fifty-five respondents (59.8%) reported that they would be very or somewhat likely to file an ERPO petition when they identify a qualifying patient."

A piss-poor article in JAMA - one hospital (Johns Hopkins), survey taken 8 months after MD passed their ERPO law, lousy response rate of 26% (30-40% is a norm with 26% outside the acceptable margin of error), and talk about a conflict of interest...

"Conflict of Interest Disclosures: Dr Frattaroli reported receiving a grant from the Bloomberg American Health Initiative outside the submitted work and being a founding member of the Consortium for Risk-Based Firearm Policy, which developed the extreme risk protection order concept and recommends that states adopt extreme risk protection order laws. No other disclosures were reported.
Funding/Support: The Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research for provided the open access fee for this article, and the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg American Health Initiative supported our previous work on extreme risk protection orders that informs this article."

That said, I believe "better" study would only confirm the findings - most doctors would Red Flag most patients given anonymity, immunity and if it were just a click-box on their laptop patient records system.

Ball'mer Sun Baltimore City Homicides says 338 homicides in 2019 vs 309 in 2018 - how's that Red Flag law workin' out for 'ya B'More?

 

[Devils Paintbrush]

Points toward the fact that you shouldn't volunteer anything extra that is not medically related.

Same concept of don't talk to the police. A lot of people talk themselves into jail, the same with an ERPO.

I had an incident that happened at work less than a month ago that could have gone very wrong. It is no secret at work that I am a gun owner. In fact, there are many gun owners where I work.

Based on a conversation that happened 3-6 months ago that I wasn't even a part of, there was a discussion about what would happen if there was a shooting at work.
Guy number 1 says, "I would hide behind Devil's Paintbrush because he is known to carry a weapon in his bag" (it goes without saying that I don't).
Company has a no weapons policy...if you are caught, you are out.

Guy number 2 when he gets butthurt because they are moving him to another area, files a HR complaint that says Devil's Paintbrush and 2 other faceless guys carry in an area I don't regularly work. Says he doesn't feel safe to work in this area because guns...

When I got called to HR, while wanting to give them an ear full about them being A**holes, I pretty much kept my mouth shut and answered only their questions because "of the seriousness(their words)" of the situation.

About as far as I was willing to go was when I asked them if there wasn't enough drama that goes around that they have to invent it now.

I escaped angry but intact. Keep your mouth shut, same goes for doctors.

 

[Gak44]

DP, very good advice. I have been putting off a doc visit for just those reasons.

 

[Broc]

I say this on every doctor/gun related thread ...

Doctor: "do you have guns at home?"
You: NO.

That is it. Plain and simple. "NO".

 

[shootymacshootface]

It would be a free for all.

 

[Twigg]

when they identify a qualifying patient."

So what exactly identifys a "qualifying patient"? Owning gunz???

 

[Dadstoys]

So what exactly identifys a "qualifying patient"? Owning gunz???

Whatever they decide it means.
It sucks that you have to lie to the one person you shouldn't , but there you have it.
Mentioning to your doctor you've been somewhat depressed over the death of a family member or something like that might just end up with your door knocked off the hinges at 3am .

 

[NannerClips]

I have never in my life had a doctor ask me if I was a gun owner or had guns in the home. If they ever do ask, I will absolutely say no. Sad world.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

I hear that 90% of doctors who tried Camels went back to women. Jack.

 

[daekken]

There's literally no incentive for them not to ERPO you.

If they do, it's just "an abundance of caution."
If they don't and something happens, it's "the doctor could have prevented this murder/suicide/attack/whatever....he was given info the person might've been a risk, but chose not to do anything about it."

Given the possibility of # 2, why wouldn't a doctor file one?

 

[Twigg]

...

 

[rali]

There's literally no incentive for them not to ERPO you.

If they do, it's just "an abundance of caution."
If they don't and something happens, it's "the doctor could have prevented this murder/suicide/attack/whatever....he was given info the person might've been a risk, but chose not to do anything about it."

Given the possibility of # 2, why wouldn't a doctor file one?

"an abundance of caution" is one of those phrases that just makes me want to cockpunch the uterer until there is no chance of them ever breeding (not YOU, daekken, I understand your quotation marks).

How about applying the APPROPRIATE amount of caution, you trembling, cowardly, shadow fearing ball of sh*t? FOADinafire.

Safe space, safe space, I need my safe space now.

R

 

[Fixxah]

How many doctors kill/maime patients versus guns?

 

[308rifleman]

I have never in my life had a doctor ask me if I was a gun owner or had guns in the home. If they ever do ask, I will absolutely say no. Sad world.

We had to change pediatricians after my older daughter, who was 5 at the time, answered "yes". We told both of our daughters that the proper answer is "no" and we never again will leave them alone with doctors and nurses.

 

[308rifleman]

Points toward the fact that you shouldn't volunteer anything extra that is not medically related.

Same concept of don't talk to the police. A lot of people talk themselves into jail, the same with an ERPO.

I had an incident that happened at work less than a month ago that could have gone very wrong. It is no secret at work that I am a gun owner. In fact, there are many gun owners where I work.

Based on a conversation that happened 3-6 months ago that I wasn't even a part of, there was a discussion about what would happen if there was a shooting at work.
Guy number 1 says, "I would hide behind Devil's Paintbrush because he is known to carry a weapon in his bag" (it goes without saying that I don't).
Company has a no weapons policy...if you are caught, you are out.

Guy number 2 when he gets butthurt because they are moving him to another area, files a HR complaint that says Devil's Paintbrush and 2 other faceless guys carry in an area I don't regularly work. Says he doesn't feel safe to work in this area because guns...

When I got called to HR, while wanting to give them an ear full about them being A**holes, I pretty much kept my mouth shut and answered only their questions because "of the seriousness(their words)" of the situation.

About as far as I was willing to go was when I asked them if there wasn't enough drama that goes around that they have to invent it now.

I escaped angry but intact. Keep your mouth shut, same goes for doctors.

I don't discuss firearm ownership or use at work. If you want to talk about fishing, I guess that will be OK.

 

[drgrant]

There's literally no incentive for them not to ERPO you.

Maybe it's just because I am critical of the BS ERPO stuff to begin with, but if I was an MD I sure as hell wouldn't want to ERPO anyone that I thought was actually f***ed/crazy, unless my hand was forced. Anyone forward thinking enough can see how that might end badly. Do you really want to be the guy that pissed off the crazy dude and get your house/cars burned into ashes a couple months later? f*** that noise. Remember, an ERPO is a paper tiger, it doesn't actually make someone less dangerous, unless the kopsch kill the person targeted in the ERPO.

Also I thought MDs (generally) had an ethical construct of avoiding harming the patient. An ERPO sure as f*** isn't going to "help someone get better". Oh this patient is suicidal, hit him with an ERPO, that will surely fix everything....by inviting the kopsch into his life based off fear and speculation.

Bear in mind also that the bar to get an ERPO is likely a lot lower vs the existing legal triggers for the mandated reporter BS. And even a mandated reporter is a different ballgame from an ERPO.

This "Survey" reeks of a cauldron of bullshit, but we knew it was already. I am very skeptical that if you took MDs as a class that the numbers expressed are anywhere near reflective of reality.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

"an abundance of caution" is one of those phrases that just makes me want to cockpunch the uterer until there is no chance of them ever breeding (not YOU, daekken, I understand your quotation marks).

How about applying the APPROPRIATE amount of caution, you trembling, cowardly, shadow fearing ball of sh*t? FOADinafire.

Safe space, safe space, I need my safe space now.

R

Yes, exactly... that phrase is the same shitnugget clicheed garbage like when a school gets evacuated for a
phoned in bomb threat. It's just some excuse phrase overused to justify statist bullshit. If I was king and someone used the word "abundance of caution" there better be like ebola mist in the air, a huge chemical gas leak/spill in a town, or something like that- a known threat in substance and established magnitude. A known, exigent, tangible threat. Otherwise I'd send that f***er to jail for 2 weeks, guilty of the offense of "going full retard"

fun usual example:

-someone phones in a bomb threat at a public school in anytown usa-

Statist Shitnugget Citizen Moron: "Hey didju know dey evacuated the school... out of an abundance of
caution. "

Me: "You realize these things are f***ing fake, right? It's some kid trolling the school. Has anyone ever called in a bomb threat on a US school and there actually was a real bomb or it actually went off? Do you realize that kid that phoned it in was probably laughing out loud when they hung up the phone, because they knew that you people would suck for it?"

Statist Shitnugget Citizen Moron: "Well, guh buh... wuh... I can't think of one.... BUT WAT IF THERE ACTUALLY WAS A BOM AT THE SCKEWL???? WHAT ABOUT THE CIHLLLDREENEEEREFDF BWAAG! *fartpuke* *flaps arms wildly* sceweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeAAAAUGH! (sound of their brain while dividing by zero) B B B UT its a POST COLYMBYNE 9/11 WORLD U DONT GET IT BWEAAAAH!"

Me: "No, I don't f***ing get it, how either of those things should make people spineless and retarded just because they happened. "

-Mike

 

[kerryman71]

We had to change pediatricians after my older daughter, who was 5 at the time, answered "yes". We told both of our daughters that the proper answer is "no" and we never again will leave them alone with doctors and nurses.

I've told my son the same thing, particularly about the doctor's office. My son is 14 and is well aware of the climate out there, and he knows that it's no ones business of what I own or don't own; doctor, teachers, friends, relatives (especially my wife ).

 

[radioman]

I go to the doctors office 15+
times per-year and have never
been asked about guns. I guess
it’s all about the Doc?

 

[allen-1]

I go to the doctors office 15+
times per-year and have never
been asked about guns. I guess
it’s all about the Doc?

My PCP is a member of my local gun club.
He doesn't ask me about guns. I generally ask him how his skeet shooting's going.

 

[fshalor]

Remember also folks. This is coming from the community who might just kill more people in a year due to hospital mistakes and malpractice than every shooting involving an AR-15 with a 30 round assault clipazine since they were first invented.

 

[MaverickNH]

My comment posted to the site below. More journals are adding unreviewed comment sections - I often see my comments posted for a few days then taken down. When I ask why I get the "editorial policy" quote back...

The primary problem the docs found with ERPOs were related to 'not enough time' - time to file, time to attend hearings, time to train on ERPOs, etc. Well, Hell Yeah it should be just a bit inconvenient to deprive someone of Civil Rights. Allowing a defendant to "confront" witnesses who only send in paperwork or connect to proceedings via phone is utter BS, on top of the initial ex parte violation of Due Process.

Time... That's why Hillary won the 2016 election in the polls - liberals/progressive have plenty of time to Like, Friend and click on polls but going to a polling place on Election Day - way too much time commitment. They are used to silencing conservatives in the media via PC/Internet from a chair. If they never hear, see, read about alternative views, they just assume there are none or they're all "fake news" to be ignored.

***************************************

"December 25, 2019
Red Flag Laws - When will they Work?
[My Name] PhD | Crime Prevention Research Center
Baltimore City Homicides finds 338 homicides in 2019 vs 309 in 2018.

Lott & Moody (2019) found: "Two states have considerable experience with ERPO’s: Connecticut, since 1999, and Indiana since 2005. We use synthetic controls and difference in differences methods to evaluate these laws. The experience in both Connecticut and Indiana is that red flag laws have had no significant effect on either homicide or suicide. We also find that ERPO laws have had no significant effect on deaths or injuries from mass public shootings."

This study, with a low survey response rate in a single site, taken only 8 months after the ERPO law took effect, may not be reliable. While only 1 ERPO was filed by respondents, 80-100 are filed in MD monthly.

But in one way, the low response rate paralleles the main conclusion - not enough time. Facilitating ease of ERPOs conflicts with Due Process considerations. The MD ERPO law authorizes an ex parte proceeding, which means that the order is issued without the participation of the person against whom this is directed. The time requirement is driven by the mandatory hearing wherein the defendant has the right to confront witnesses. The vociferous support of gun control by the medical community comes with the cost of time and responsibility."

 

[Buck F]

I say this on every doctor/gun related thread ...

Doctor: "do you have guns at home?"
You: NO.

That is it. Plain and simple. "NO".

Sometimes they ask your kid or your spouse, make sure they know how to answer. I was at an appointment w one of my daughter’s specialist, my ex-wife was there. They asked the question and she said yes, that I had them. It wasn’t malicious, she has no problem w me having guns, just caught by surprise by the question.

Otherwise, definitely answer no and be done with it. Nothing good will come from arguing or standing on principle w the medical community on this subject.

 

[Dadstoys]

"an abundance of caution" is one of those phrases that just makes me want to cockpunch the uterer until there is no chance of them ever breeding (not YOU, daekken, I understand your quotation marks).

How about applying the APPROPRIATE amount of caution, you trembling, cowardly, shadow fearing ball of sh*t? FOADinafire.

Safe space, safe space, I need my safe space now.

R

And no Judge is going to deny one for the same reason , no matter how thin the basis is.

 

[ridleyman]

I have never in my life had a doctor ask me if I was a gun owner or had guns in the home. If they ever do ask, I will absolutely say no. Sad world.

They asked my daughter at her annual physical, and she wisely deferred to me. I said yes, but they're locked up and everybody is safety trained in the family. Next time the answer will be no.

 

[NannerClips]

Yeah, I'd say at this point in time it's just not even worth leaving it to chance. Thing that sucks about doctors is once you tell them something once, if they put it in your medical history, it's pretty much stuck in there. Would love to know if you can get things removed from it. I've never had anything like that in it but there's a couple things in my file from when I was much younger that I'd love to 86.

 

[BigTimber]

Well doc, you folks are good for about 100,000 deaths a year while we lawfull gun owners a tiny tiny fraction of that so the more prudent question is how many patients have you killed?

 

[308rifleman]

One of my co-workers had to go on a certain medication. OK, she agreed and filled the prescription from her doctor here in MA. About two months later, she received a registered letter from the Massachusetts Registry of Motor Vehicles that her driver's license was suspended! Her doctor ratted her out! Less said to the bureaucrats in this state, the better!

 

[drgrant]

One of my co-workers had to go on a certain medication. OK, she agreed and filled the prescription from her doctor here in MA. About two months later, she received a registered letter from the Massachusetts Registry of Motor Vehicles that her driver's license was suspended! Her doctor ratted her out! Less said to the bureaucrats in this state, the better!

What medication is that?

ETA: there's a metric shitload of major medical conditions that DQ people from keeping a DL, I'm betting it's "that" and not merely the drug prescribed.

 

[308rifleman]

What medication is that?

Some type of antidepressant. Her beloved sister was diagnosed as terminal. Sad. I knew both of them. Real kin folk.