Lee 1oz cas slug - what wad can I use?

[Zombieoutfitters]

Hi everyone,

New to reloading 12ga slugs. VERY NEW. I've got some lead, I've got the mold, I've got the hulls. Soon I will have some slugs.

When I do I need to buy 209 primers and WADS.

Wads is where I get hung up. The Lee mold manual suggests I can use shot cups or wads but all the listed data in the manual as you would suspect does not correspond to readily available product.

I can get WINDJAMMER 1oz Wads - or shot cups with the little plastic "petals". Now I understand the height of the slug has to be determined by the powder depth at proper charge and wad...but before I even get there:

Does anyone know if you can use "any" type of 1oz wads / shot cups? Or is there a specific type of wad that HAS TO BE USED with a slug?

Aside from discouraging warnings (as I am trying to do it right) any wisdom you could impart from your experience that would be helpful is appreciated.

Thanks everyone!

 

[Madball13]

As far as i know you just follow the loading data for 1oz loads with your given shot cup, powder and primer. I would choose your powder, wads and primers and then find the correct recipe and follow accordingly. I'm sure someone will come along and either agree or shit on my answer so just in case, IANAL.

Edit - Lee says use standard hulls and wads. So find a recipe from a powder manufacture for the powder you will use and go with it.

 

[DukeInFlorida]

Specifically, what hulls are you going to be using? The wads need to get matched to the hull, and then to the shot/slug.
And, what powder will you be using?

You didn't include that info in the OP.

BTW, here's a link to a YouTube Video with a fellow showing how he does slugs. He's using the PINK wads with Winchester hulls. Notice that his crimp is the same as a normal shotshell crimp, because that's how the hull is pre-formed. You're not going to get "factory roll crimps" with slugs at home.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4zI6iLt4J4&feature=related

Here's a different guy, using a different hull, different wad, and a different slug:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2997336516648660322#

BUNCH of reload data here (use with extreme caution):
http://www.loaddata.com/members/listing.cfm?gaugeid=4&type=1

And, finally, Hodgdon has some wonderful reload data:
http://data.hodgdon.com/shotshell_load.asp

Hi everyone,

New to reloading 12ga slugs. VERY NEW. I've got some lead, I've got the mold, I've got the hulls. Soon I will have some slugs.

When I do I need to buy 209 primers and WADS.

Wads is where I get hung up. The Lee mold manual suggests I can use shot cups or wads but all the listed data in the manual as you would suspect does not correspond to readily available product.

I can get WINDJAMMER 1oz Wads - or shot cups with the little plastic "petals". Now I understand the height of the slug has to be determined by the powder depth at proper charge and wad...but before I even get there:

Does anyone know if you can use "any" type of 1oz wads / shot cups? Or is there a specific type of wad that HAS TO BE USED with a slug?

Aside from discouraging warnings (as I am trying to do it right) any wisdom you could impart from your experience that would be helpful is appreciated.

Thanks everyone!

 

[BIG GUN]

First of all, the Lee Key slug is a bitch to cast because of the spanner. I used a w12A wad over 35G of Universal in AA cases and had lousy 100yd. results. I now cast the Lyman 525 oversized airgun pellet with moa accuracy @ 100yds. using 45G of Bluedot under a W12A wad in AA cases. All should be cast with pure lead.. There is a comprehensive thread on this on castboolits.com

 

[Zombieoutfitters]

Hi guys,

Thank you to those who have responded thus far. I will be using Unique powder and Remington hulls...the kind you get at Wally World in the 15 shell box "sluggers".

I was mainly curious about using "shot cups" and if you could use one type of "shot cup" plastic wad with several different types of hulls. For example, the Windjammer wad with Federal hulls AND Remington hulls.

I'll check out load data for my powder and research a LOT more on recipes for my hull and wads.

I was *hoping* (like loading 9mm) I could pick up 12ga hulls and use ANY hull in good condition with the same wads...but it does not sound like it works that way. And SAFETY IS #1.

Accuracy I do not have a great concern about, it's just for the range. I have Federal defense ammo for home.

Thanks again for your posts - I will use the info in my research and look forward to hearing any additional comments.

 

[mac1911]

Lead Slugs 12 1 oz. Buckbuster Universal Win. 209 Fed. 12S4 23.5 10,400 PSI 1350 from hodgdon web site, this replicates a hunting load,
I used load data for CLAYS powder for 1oz loads and brought the FPS down to 1150/1200 fps for the slug shoots we have. more consistant in accuracy that the 1350fps load I did before.
I have a old roll crimper that worked well, simular to this http://slugsrus.com/store/page7.html. I think it is a lyman or lee ? It just didnt really get the best crimp

I ended up useing remington STS hulls, Remington TGT12s wads, 18 grains of clays and adjusted my mec600jr to get a decent regular star crimp. I only loaded these for the fun target shoots we have out to 50 yards. I used a basic slug like the ones found in reminton 5 pack value slugs. Also with the mec600 I can run it through station that puts a nice radius on the top of the shell for better feeding in my 1100.

 

[DukeInFlorida]

Here's the problem with the one wad fits all idea:

The insides of the hulls are different, depending on the hull. Take a bunch of them (different brands), and look inside, at the bottom.

You'll see paper bottoms (typically just about useless because they tatter too easily), plastic bottoms, and a whole variety of configurations in there.

So, the wads are really constructed of three parts:

The lower section that fits over the powder load. That section varies depending on the type of hull.

The upper section that holds the shot or slug. That section varies depending on how much shot, and which hull.

The middle section, which is usually some type or style of compressible structure. That varies to make up the total height of the round, and allows for some compression within the shell to keep it all tight.

I'm going to suggest that you really take a close look at the Hodgdon site I posted, and their walk through for the shell components is superb! I think you will get a sense for what wad to use with THAT specific hull that you have.

No, you can't use one wad for all hulls.

 

[Zombieoutfitters]

Totally frustrated - please check my logic

Thanks Mac, I'll check out slugs r us information.

I researched a bunch today based on the input so far - THANKS AGAIN!

I am really frustrated now.

I have 2 types of hulls Federal and Remington, both the high brass...not super high but not the super short ones about 1/2" of brass. I don't know the hull model name as they are not in front of me.

I have Unique and American Select powder.

I can get Windjammer 1oz wads or order CB110's from Midway or whatever.

I also have Win209 primers.

Now...here comes frustration. When I go to the wad manufacturers they only have recipes for my powder / primer combo with 1 1/8 oz wads.

When I go to my powder manufacturers they either don't have any of the powder recipes listed on the wad manufacturer site or they only show recipes for my primer/powder with other hulls or my primer/powder/hull BUT WITH 1 1/8 oz wads.

This is FRUSTRATING as I KNOW these powders can be used for 1oz wads as there are other recipes for the powder using 1oz shot BUT they don't list any for my exact set of components!!! Arrrggghh.

Though there is NO recipe for my exact components, it implies that there IS ONE BUT HAS NOT BEEN CREATED YET. They are not saying HOW to do it, but they are not saying you CANNOT do it...and do it safely.

Now I've been reloading 9mm for a mere year now. I know I can use any case I can clean and prime. I can use any powder that has load data for a 9mm. But the manufacturer of the BULLET or the CASING rarely plays a role.

Am I being WAY TOO CAUTIOUS, I mean beyond reasonable here. OR should I just "grab my balls" and load a 1oz slug in a 1oz wad in a 2.75" hull using the best approximate recipe I can find for my primers? Working UP the load of course.

In my experience...the hull and slug are like a 9mm casing and 115gr bullet, they don't really factor in if they are in a safe condition.

In my estimation it's the WAD, PRIMER AND POWDER...the stuff that will "go boom" and accompany my slug down the barrel that are important here.

Order of importance being powder charge, primer choice and WAD. Powder for propellant, primer for ignition and WAD for proper crimp and accuracy down range.

That being said - I should be able to take all the data and approximate a recipe. I'm thinking (Hull)+(1oz wad)+(Win209)+(slug)+(18-20 grains of Unique or American Select) should be a good place to start. Work it up from 16 grains and start from there.

Am I crazy or does this sound reasonable?

 

[DukeInFlorida]

Shotshells are different than metallic cartridges.

Here's the OFFICIAL warning: With shotshells, you DO NOT "work up a load". You follow the absolute given recipe.

Before the shotgunners yell at me, I am speaking the official warning of the industry. All of the official industry sources warn against the concept of building up to a load.

You'll have to treat the TWO different hulls as two different loads.

Use who ever made your powder (that you will using) as the source, and call their phone, and ask them or reload data for the specifics. Tell them what hull (advise them of the two different ones that you intend to use), and that you will be loading slugs. Have them tell you how much of what powder, and what wad to use.

If you get some Hodgdon Universal Powder for starting off with, their site has great load data for 1 oz slugs in three different types (three different 1 oz slugs). I see your Remington hulls listed. I also see a Federal hull listed.

Here's the data for one combo, but you should get it first hand rather than rely on anything any one posts:
2 3/4" Remington STS or Gun Club Hulls 12 ga 1 oz. Buckbuster Slug << note: recipe changes with any change of slug type and weight
23.5 grains Universal Powder Win. 209 primer Fed. 12S4 wad
10,400 PSI 1350 fps

This is what a 12s4 wad looks like:

Notice, when you look at Midway, for example, that the 12S4 wad is a 1 1/4 oz wad. Don't worry about that. The slug will be longer than the same amount (weight) of shot. With the wads, it's the length of the projectile (either shot or slug) that's the key factor.

The manufacturers of the powder have already worked up all the combinations for your hulls/powder/slugs. Use that resource, follow the recipe EXACTLY, get whatever wads they specify, and be safe!

 

[mac1911]

I find its best not to try to make what you have work
Get the components that are needed
Balistic Specialties is another great reloading wed site, They have load data also for use with fiber wads ect ect. Check out alliants web site for a down load of there load data. It tends to have a larger section of data

 

[BIG GUN]

Lyman publishes a shotshell reloading manual that includes all kinds of slugs & sabots, but I don't recall the Lee being in there.

 

[mac1911]

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/prodinfo.asp?number=00MSLUG

My previous post I made a typo Ballisticproducts is what I was after. I have a few pics to post later also
NOTE: I only load 50 or so slugs a year for our SLUG target shoot.

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/bullet-casting/mould-details-shotgun.php?entryID=85 these are like the slugs I used. I purchased them @ kittery a long time ago. Cant recall the manufacture


Ahhh found it, this is the only load data catalog I have on file that list slugs page 38.....stout loads though

http://glarp.atk.com/2004/2004Catalogs/2004AlliantPowderSM.pdf

OK im bored, wifes working kids asleep more stuff

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8a4JHLTZx1Q&feature=related Basically what I do.

and yet more stuff, basically what I use except I use remington products http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=170388

 

[mac1911]

Theres no substitute for good load data!
OK heres a little run down, when I was a kid my dad and his friends casted slugs and buck shot then reloaded them. I dont know what they used for data
This slowly came to a end when I was about 10. I was the goffer for them, I think it was the fact they were able to afford ammo as they got older which stopped the makeing of there own or lack of time?

OK I like to shoot fun slug shoots, for the most part if you can get groups of 4" to 5" @ 50 yards you can do well. I did not like shooting 15 to 20 rounds of 1500fps factory remington slugsters. So I decided to load my own.

I ended up useing load data for Hodgdon clays powder for 1oz load with remington hulls,wads,primers.. 18 grains of powder got me about 1200fps
I used the TGT12 wads with the pedals cut off, once in a while a pedal would flop or bend and crease the case. removeing the pedals solved this.

Here are some pics and a bit of what I did. I hope it makes sense and the pics come out OK.
NOTE: this is not the press I use for slugs so the final crimp is not perfect
My reloading space is also a mess. I reloaded "plenty" of trap loads and have not been shooting and things have just piled up......

factory Remington 1oz slugsters 1500fps

Whats inside a factory Remmy, Now if your looking for accurate consistant loads you may want to look deeper into reloading them to specs and roll crimping them. As you can see after you buy gas seal, fiberwad,spacer andslugs they can get pricey to reload. Possible reason not a heck of a lot of data

Here I use the wad seater to seat the wad, I only adjust the wad ram depth until the gauge(mec loader) just moves a tiny bit. This assures the wad is seated creating a good gas seal and not crushing the wad.

Here you can run the slug through the wad quide or just install with the fingers.

Here is the pre crimp

here is the final crimp, mind you I used a old gun club hull here. it is dirty and the base shows a little rust. I recomend if you choose to reload Remington gun club hulls to load them and use them. The steel base will rust up in short time.
This was a demo. No live primer. The hull will be dismantled.

Now I get results I am looking for decent 25 and 50 yard groups for target purpose only. With out the mega punch of the 1500+ FPS slug loads. I also only shoot out of a remington 870 or 1100 smooth bore barrel.

With my mec 600 that I have set up for reloading slugs I have the crimp set as to get a near factory crimp also the final crimp that puts the radius on the loaded shell helps with a nice crimp. I did not do the final crimp station on this demo.

Good luck. After a little research, its been a while since I reloaded slugs and sincee my daughter was born I have not shot the clubs slug shoot in 2 years. I may have to get me some of these?http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=779775
ARRGGHHH now I want to get back into it.....http://www.ballisticproducts.com/prodinfo.asp?number=1247460

 

[Gammon]

I have been casting some 7/8 oz slugs using a Lyman mold. I use Winchester AA Plus Trap shells and a wad that is recommended for 7/8 oz of shot. This combo has given me 2.75 in groups at 25 yds.

 

[Timberwolf]

You have Remington and Federal hulls.

Which ones? The types are different.

You have one piece hull and basewad, 2 piece hull and basewad and a paper basewad. Then there are the straight and tapered.

Get the Lyman Shotshell Loading Manual. It has the cut aways of the different hulls. This is the bible of manual. Lee supplied info is very conservative and BPI is good for info IF you are using their products.

 

[Gammon]

If I'm not mistaken, a lot of this information is included with the mold.

 

[Zombieoutfitters]

Thank you again everyone, especially Duke and Mac who have put a lot of time and super extra effort into your replies (+1). I will use your followup posts to help me source what I need.

I'll get all my data down on one piece of paper and start making phone calls to Alliant and then Midway.

It gets hard when you have to be so "black and white" at first, but then there is the tweaking everyone does once they know their shit and feel confident. I just need to get the stars aligned, get the right stuff and go from there.

With your help, the experience I gain will some day allow me to help another person.

THANKS!!! Happy New Year!

 

[Zombieoutfitters]

I've got the components that work finally. Wanted to update you guys. I setup the press last night and tried star crimping some previously rolled Rem's. They were collapsing where the rolled edge was...I had some perfect star crimps that were about 80% formed and the other 20% was collapsed. Those will be disassembled, reconditioned and roll crimped. I ordered a roll crimper to have both tools on hand.

The windjammer 12100 wad works marvelously in these hulls...and the recipe I have.

Check this out. Oddly...I had a recipe from Alliant for Lee 1oz slugs with all my components. It called for WAA12 wads, for which there is a direct Clays substitute. I tried to fit the slug in the Clays substitute at the gun store yesterday. The damn slug was too wide and bowed out the petals on the cup! Can you imagine that!!! It was the direct substitute for the EXACT wad called for in the recipe for my EXACT slug and it did not fit. After that I lost a lot of faith in all these recipes that are supposed be followed "spot on"...that was a manufacturers recipe for cripes sake. I WILL find a recipe that I can use spot on, I just thought that was both ironic and laughable after all my component hunting.

Finally getting somewhere though! Should be roll crimping on Tuesday!

 

[DukeInFlorida]

Wait.... the recipe calls for WAA12 wads, and you thought that a "Clays substitute" would be OK? NOT! hahaha

Glad you found a combo that will work.
Let us know how they fire, and what you get for groups.

Don't forget... if you hear a light pop, and experience a squib load, DO NOT LOAD UP ANOTHER ROUND, even if you see the slug come out the barrel. A common squib situation with a shotshell reload is that the WAD stays in the barrel, even though the shot, or in this case, the slug, makes it out. Hitting the back end of a wad with another load will wedge the previous wad in the barrel, creating an obstruction, and blowing out your barrel. So, be mindful of squib loads when doing your own shotshells. In fact, many of us purposefully load ONE, and fire it, so we know what it sounds like in your gun with your hearing protection on. Magic Marker the hell out of that test hull so that you know which one it is. A squib, for the uninitiated, is a loaded round with NO POWDER installed. Just the gas from the primer.

 

[Zombieoutfitters]

Loaded shells...still not there yet

Hi guys,

Duke I wanted to post some pictures for you and others. I found a recipe for all my components subbing ONLY the slug. The hulls were previously roll crimped, so I roll crimped.

Problem is I have a height problem. I can get a good crimp but it's 1/8" shorter than factory shells. I also had to trim the petals on the shot cup down as you will see on the photo.

I don't plan on shooting these shells, but wanted to post photos.

I'm going to work up another recipe.

This has been the best result so far...but because it's 1/8" shorter than a factory round and I had to modify the wad, I don't want to shoot them. I assume that is the smart choice.


View attachment 8449
FACTORY REM IS IN THE MIDDLE

View attachment 8450
FACTORY REM IS ON THE RIGHT

View attachment 8451
THESE ARE ALL MY SHELLS AND THE MODIFIED WAD - PETALS CUT DOWN 50%

View attachment 8452
FACTORY REM IS IN THE MIDDLE (TALLER) - MODIFIED WAD ON LEFT

 

[DukeInFlorida]

You sure ARE stubborn.

Just go with the Lee recipe, and get shooting. Stop fooling around.

Don't forget, you can't "work up" a shot shell round. The pressures will surprise you! Kaboom goes your shotgun.

Put your existing parts aside (other than the slugs), get the right wads for the job, and do it per the official recipe. You shouldn't be cutting down any wads.

 

[coastie]

Just use the listed loads for Lee. If you dont have the correct components buy them. Are your slugs cast from pure lead? It makes a difference in the dia of the cast slug. What were you using for data? If it was for a Foster type slug of the same weight the Lee will likely be shorter because of the drive key. If you are using data for a heavier slug like the Lyman 475, the Lee could be a lot shorter. Again just use the exact components listed in the published data and you shouldnt have any issues.

 

[Zombieoutfitters]

Yeah I can be stubborn. One of my best qualities. But I'm not stupid AND stubborn. I've been blessed with a healthy dose of common sense to equal out my stubbornness and impetuous streak. I guess a blessing and a curse equal out right? Right?

I tend to experiment a lot when I learn something new. Thought I would share my photos of the process. Figured some day some poor schmo can search the thread and share in my frustration. There are not a lot of slug loading threads with photos of what NOT to do. LOL

Rest assured, in this case experimentation ALWAYS STOPS before the trigger gets pulled. Much of the information supplied by you guys will and has been used to help guide me to the correct loads and correct procedures.

Trimming wads...not gonna happen. After that post I implemented an "over-shot" card and it crimped up perfectly but still too deep.

I'm not trying to make my components work anymore, thanks to your advice. BUT even though I am working with an EXACT recipe (subbing slug) I still have to roll crimp the hulls b/c they were already roll crimped once. Well, I don't HAVE to. I could just get some more star crimped hulls, but I want to try to - for the diversity of the loading experience. I also have two other types of hulls with a star crimp.

I also called Lee and BPI today to get helpful advice from "the source" on roll crimping and they got me in a solid direction. They suggested trimming the hull down to 1/4" above the load and roll crimp to the over-slug card. The roll crimp should be 1/8" and still leave the shell at the correct height. Once I trim the hulls they will crimp PERFECT.

Additionally, thanks to the advice of all you guys, I have a $90 midway order on it's with with more recipe-specific components (pat on head). Again, stubborn but not stupid.

But check this out. Last night while tinkering I had some 8 star crimp REM Gun Clubs around the house. I fold crimped up a Lee slug last night (yes Duke, with an EXACT recipe I had for ALL my components) and she looked great. 18.1 gr Am Sel, WIN 209, Windjammer 12100 wad...check THIS out! The load was so mild my wife will finally be able to try the shotgun. So much for the debated accuracy of Lee slug...



I was so happy to finally have a successful load my enthusiasm has been renewed.

 

[DukeInFlorida]

An exact recipe, "SUBBING SLUG"????? That's NOT an exact recipe then, is it????

No subbing.... Subbing = dangerous......

Do it right, Mr. Common Sense......

 

[Zombieoutfitters]

An exact recipe, "SUBBING SLUG"????? That's NOT an exact recipe then, is it????

No subbing.... Subbing = dangerous......

Do it right, Mr. Common Sense......

Okay, well...yeah you got me there. Nice dig too. I deserved it.

Just for others who may stumble upon this some day and think "oh yeah I can substitute too". Duke and the Coastie are right. Subbing IS dangerous. Even though I accepted responsibility for my own actions, I did not do so blindly.

The recipe with the sub was provided to me by a fella who used it for years without any problems and with terrific results. So I wasn't going into the substitution 100% blind, in as much as I trusted him anyway. I also cross-referenced his source for the recipe before using it and indeed the only sub was the slug.

 

[DukeInFlorida]

I only jab when someone needs to have a reality check on safety. So, I am glad you took it in the good manner in which it was intended.

Getting back on subject..........

Most people who reload slugs do so with regular folded type hulls, most don't even try to re-use slug hulls, since the roll crimp suffers a LOT when fired. They almost get shredded, and that makes them almost useless.

The people who use the folded ones get slug loads that look a lot different than what you are going for. That is to say, the folded hulls don't show the slug out front at all. It would look like any other shotshell.

Have you considered that version? That's what most of the recipes are calling for.

 

[Zombieoutfitters]

I only jab when someone needs to have a reality check on safety. So, I am glad you took it in the good manner in which it was intended.

Getting back on subject..........

Most people who reload slugs do so with regular folded type hulls, most don't even try to re-use slug hulls, since the roll crimp suffers a LOT when fired. They almost get shredded, and that makes them almost useless.

The people who use the folded ones get slug loads that look a lot different than what you are going for. That is to say, the folded hulls don't show the slug out front at all. It would look like any other shotshell.

Have you considered that version? That's what most of the recipes are calling for.

Hey I need a good kick in the axx once in a while...especially when I get over-enthusiastic. I came to you for advice, no sense taking it personally when you only want me to listen to reason for my own safety. LOL

On subject...yes I have considered the crimp fold load. In fact I have collected several shells and have ordered several wads for various recipes, including Lee's. I can't say I won't be subbing slug for shot in some others, because (accepting the risk) I will. But I will be doing so in very low pressure loads and am comfortable doing so.

In fact, I am leaning almost exclusively toward the crimp fold for several reasons...it's faster to load, performs better, is easier on the plastic and forms a more consistent crimp. So far also more accurate in my Mossy 88.

So far I have test fired star-crimped and roll-crimped slugs this week...the roll crimp were all over the paper +/- a few inches from aim point. The star crimp were right on the money. This I am unfairly blaming on the crimp, and I say unfair because a few test mags is hardly a fair comparison...only time will tell. But I am looking to end up doing 90% fold crimp and 10% roll crimp until those hulls are junk.

To your point exactly, the roll crimp took a beating...mostly because of the height of the roll. On the factory rounds the roll crimp opens up wide, on my roll crimped shells they retained a partially closed inward curl after releasing the load. The hull will be re-conditioned with the BPI tool but I was wondering to myself just how many times I will get away with that...maybe 3-5 if lucky? We'll see!

Steve

 

[DukeInFlorida]

I think 1 or 2 at the most on roll crimps.
Hulls are cheap, so don't sweat tossing them. Heck, I got boxes and boxes of mil high brass hulls, and would be willing to share.

I'm pleased that your experiments are going well. Keep on the safe side of the reloading press, and you and your gun will be fine.

 

[mac1911]

If you take a factory rem apart there are a few other wads in there gas seal ,wad, spacer. Cause for your hieght issue. I gave up on the roll crimp for the same reasons you mention. I found a old mec 600@ a yard sale with out bottles and missing other parts and just use the wad seater and crimper. If you want your wife to get into shotguning....wwinchesters low noise and low recoil rounds are very good.
Also your short shells should not be much of an issue, maybe in a semi auto???

 

[mac1911]

I purchased the lee 1oz mold, works fine. My 1st load for testing
Alliant green dot:

Remington STS hull,1oz payload, 1,200fps, Rem 209P primer, 19.5grains Green Dot powder, WAA12SL wad , 8,600 psi alliant published data. I also have hodgdon international to try, herco and blue dot. I do not have wads that will allow enough room for the bulky powders.....why I started with green dot.

The data with the lee mold are for loads 1400fps +, I am not looking for hunting loads