You need something with more magnification than a red dot to get the best accuracy.
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55gr or 62gr and FMJ or SP to stockpile?
- Thread starter Qwikdraw45
- Start date
Just remember Milspec M855 will go out the door passing the test at 3.3 MA roughly and that’s a median average of several groups so within one lot you can have a test group that really sucks one that’s really good and the rest I just about average and That lot is good to go. And if you think the 855 that we buy has passed all the criteria I’m gonna say no.
The M855 seconds sold to the general public could just very well be all the stuff that failed some point of the military spec standard most likely velocity and accuracy. It could be production overruns at the tail end of a contract run. Just keep in mind, the stuff isn’t made to be so-called accurate .
It is a great idea ro have someone with known great skills proof out your set up.
Or find someone with. Rifle/ammo combo that is known to shoot moa or better and ask to put 10 rounds on target and see hiw you do.
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Glad there's all you lot with great realistic responses and educating me on this. I'm fairly new to shooting rifles and mostly been a pistol and a 22LR rifle only kinda guy till recently. Been trolled too many times with AK owners saying "DUDE my AK is a 4-5 MOA gun and that's how it's designed. You have an AR and it should do 1.5-2 MOA EASILY."
That depends a lot on the gun and ammo. Federal Gold Match versus some surplus XM193 are going to see different results...
badshot101
NES Member
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Who say's you can't train on metal targets with SP? We allow it at our club.Winchester Lake City 5.56 XM193 55g
Winchester 5.56MM 55 Grain XM193 Lake City FMJ With Stripper Clips and Loading Tool - WM193CP
Backed by generations of legendary excellence, Winchester "USA White Box" stands for consistent performance and outstanding value, offering high-quality ammunition to suit a wide range of hunter's and shooter's needs. For serious shooters, M193 USA Ammunition from Winchester is the ideal choice...www.bereli.com
You can't train on metal targets with SP.
At least you can train with FMJ.
I'd buy 10,000 rounds now and be set for life if I were you.
Inflation will just get worse.
You'll probably only need 500 rounds in TEOTW scenario for kinetic action.
Keep the rest on hand for training and the rest of your team.
Lake City is investment grade ammo.
Used to be called Federal Lake City but Winchester bought the plant.
Just remember, a lot of ammunition manufactured is only passing a few standards. It will safely chamber in your Rifle and shouldn’t exceed the maximum chamber pressure specified that’s the baseline. What the ammunition company decides to do to make their ammunition better than someone else or meet a higher specific accuracy standard thats another
Bulk 223556 is in the category in my mind as it’s safe and won’t blow up your gun keep expectations low.
StevieP
NES Member
the entire upper was $279 and you're using a 2moa dot sight? if it runs consistently then 'I wouldn't get too worried about trying for tight groups. Just be happy with your plinker and go about your day. Trying with 77gr match grade ammo to get a few drops of juice isn't worth the squeeze.
What's your trigger? barrel and trigger are the two most important things that determine accuracy (imho). How any particular ammo runs in it will vary based on a lot of things. My ARs are both chambered in .223 Wylde with 1:8 twist quality stainless steel barrels. *My* most-accurate ammo is 53gr Hornady Superformance Varmint. But my shtf ammo is 62gr bonded spire point. ymmv
I threw this on my old M&P Sport II lower with the creepy factory mil spec trigger. It's fine for what it is you guys are right. I just didn't know the expectations of an AR platform in 5.56. Ashamed to have drunk the koolaid of 'lololol your AR suxxx0xzx it's a 2 MOA platform you got a DUD'. It runs reliably and this Radical/Sport II build would be an excellent choice to hand to a buddy if needed.
Through outrecent history the mil spec “accuracy” standard for ammo and platform have been 3-5 moa is good enough
Remember when testing
Ammo is tested under a controlled environment with a testing device.
The absolute best ammo tested ends up in the rifle testing facility
Then the rest gets passed down the line.
Go down the rabbit hole , Mil specs are all over the internet even for 22lr
Remember when testing
Ammo is tested under a controlled environment with a testing device.
The absolute best ammo tested ends up in the rifle testing facility
Then the rest gets passed down the line.
Go down the rabbit hole , Mil specs are all over the internet even for 22lr
I mean, all my non-training ammo is sub-2 MOA and my primary contingency ammo is ~sub-1.5 MOA. When considering several of my barrels.
Some random numbers:
Mk262, BH 77 TMK, Gold Medal Match (77 or 69): usually 1.25-1.5 MOA
Aguila 62gr FMJ: Surprisingly ~1.75 - 2.25 MOA.
IMI 69gr BTHP, Hornady 55gr FMJ: 2 - 2.5 MOA
Those are all with chrome lined barrels.
You can also run into issues switch ammo and bullet combos at the same time.
Sometimes it takes a few rounds for the “fouling” to settle: I dont have a good explanation for it ?
Someone here had a better explanation at one time
Nope, not recently. My last bulk 55gr FMJ training ammo purchases had been Magtech. I just bought some Winchester lake city M193 for training courses next year. But I haven’t checked zero offset, velocity, or groups with it yet.
No. With bullets, SP means soft point.
Just do a web search for “62gr SP”. You’re going to get various bonded soft points, not M855.
See above
20 ish years ago mk 262 was supposed to be sub moa ammo. As tested
But I can say, your not getting sub moa with it out of a issues M16a2 or M4 of the day. Im not sure what black hills test with but im sure its on par with the accuracy testing methods the military calls for
Ammo testing is not done with a rifle strapped to a bench . That comes after the ammo test.
Its all fun
Best thing to do is shoot more!
StevieP
NES Member
soft point or spire point.
Better barrier-blind ammo than polymer tipped. mushrooms and dumps energy vs fmj which might pass through or polymer tip which fragments (explodes) on impact. loads of youtube videos on how different bullets behave in various conditions (media).
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StevieP
NES Member
MSR may have low flash powder or some other advantage, but the 'regular' Fusion 62gr is advertised as faster (300fps muzzle vs 2750) and more energy downrange (1001fp @ 100 yds vs 835 for the MSR). It's possible they tested the MSR with a shorter-barrel rifle (?)
A lot of ammo is tested per saami spec a 24” test barrel. Unless otherwise noted.
Ammunition manufactures will often print on the box if other barrel lengths where tested. At least thats what the email response was from 2 manufactures.
I posted that email some where on NES ?
"Clean-burning, low-flash, fast-burning propellants boost velocity through typical-length MSR barrels"
I would say it is highly likely they tested rounds designed and marketed for MSRs with a typical MSR barrel (maybe 16"), versus industry standard 24". From all the individual chrono testing I have seen online, MSR is actually the faster one when compared with regular Fusion.
Cartridge box velocities are so stupid. So few people are running 24” barrels for intermediate cartridges. Hell, even larger hunting cartridges are commonly shot out of barrels shorter than 24” these days.
One problem is that not all boxes even say what the tested barrel length was.
But the second problem is that many people don’t have chronos. Is it really so hard to publish 3 velocities in a table? 16”, 20”, and 24”. People can interpolate with their own barrel length if it’s not one of those listed.
Yes, I know each individual barrel is different, but publishing those 3 velocities would certainly go a long way for new/casual shooters to at least get a decent approximation.
One problem is that not all boxes even say what the tested barrel length was.
But the second problem is that many people don’t have chronos. Is it really so hard to publish 3 velocities in a table? 16”, 20”, and 24”. People can interpolate with their own barrel length if it’s not one of those listed.
Yes, I know each individual barrel is different, but publishing those 3 velocities would certainly go a long way for new/casual shooters to at least get a decent approximation.
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I dont have the email anymore CCI sent me a explanation of why 24” test barrel.
Basically its a set standard based on research and alot to do with powder burn rates.
they would have to test each barrel length , not happening generally .
Expect to pay more for that ammo.
Plus the more info they put on the box opens up all the calls of “why does my 10” revolver not get 1000 fps with your ammo box says 1025 fps? “ plus more info cost us more money.
They rarely update the velocities anyway, so adding two more barrel lengths shouldn’t add much cost. They certainly don’t do it each lot. Hell, Hornady didn’t even re-do them when they changed powders in their ELD lines for cartridges like 6.5 CM and 7 PRC.
I realize there is a standard for 24”, which is why I don’t think it’s reasonable to remove that barrel length. Just adding others. And using only 24” doesn’t actually tell you much about powder burn rate, at least for centerfire. additionally using shorter barrel lengths would be more informative about burn rates.
For rimfire (assuming that’s what CCI was talking about), sure I bet 24” could tell you something about burn rates. I bet there are a good number of 22lr loads that will actually achieve peak velocity before 24”.
EddieZoom
NES Member
Any resources you can point to that compare terminal performance ? I kinda get the idea that M855 might be less effective since it may pass through bad guys but could it really be that much of a difference ?