.45 ACP Primer situation, Anyone Heard of this ???

[BTSDOG]

I was at a gun shop recently, and had the occasion to hear one of the employees telling a customer that a couple of commercial ammunition manufacturers were producing .45 ACP ammo, using Small Pistol Magnum Primers ??? Has anyone heard of this situation, as it could be extremley DANGEROUS to try to stuff a LARGE pistol primer into a SMALL pistol primer pocket, especially in a progessive press......Would this be any kind of Violation of SAMMI specifications, or was this just a case of "bullshit" being tossed at a NEWBY customer who doesn't really know any better ??
YOUR INPUT PLEASE.............

 

[Flyer007]

Yup....I found some blazer brass that had small primer pockets. I hate these more then .380's in with 9mm.

 

[DukeInFlorida]

All of the new "lead free" ammo uses the small primers (long story as to why). So, from now on, you'll have to sort all 45 ACP into small primers/large primers.

Virtually all of the small primer versions have crimped primer pockets, so if you intend on using them with small primers, be aware that you will have to remove the primer crimps.

The good thing is that they have large flash holes in the small primer pockets, so they work like a charm if you decrimp, and reload with regular small primers.

Most notorious are the ones marked (head stamp) NT which stands for non-toxic (meaning no lead in the bullets or in the primer chemicals......)

 

[EddieCoyle]

You won't get far on a progressive trying to stuff a large primer in a small pocket. It's not dangerous.

 

[Gammon]

I thought this switch to small pistol primers in .45 was a big mistake (actually I still do) but there is one advantage. A top revolver competitor told me that small primers are easier to ignite than large, so these cases work very well when loaded for match guns with light main springs.

I still don't like this practice as a few of these cases can really screw up a progressive with a case feeder. I don't plan on loading any .45 in the 1050 unless I inspect all of the cases. What a PITA. Actually the best solution is to use another press so the 550 will be the .45 machine from now on.

 

[JimB]

what i find is Win NT, large primers will not fit unless the pocket is modified.

i just put them aside. i saw some federal this past weekend that had

small primers in them.

 

[Patriot]

You won't get far on a progressive trying to stuff a large primer in a small pocket. It's not dangerous.

This. I curse the ***stards that ever thought of this as a good thing. How much money did they save using
a freakin' small primer vs a large primer on the cartridge? Bean counters, moonbats, and government nutjobs
are ruining the world.

 

[Patriot]

I thought this switch to small pistol primers in .45 was a big mistake (actually I still do) but there is one advantage. A top revolver competitor told me that small primers are easier to ignite than large, so these cases work very well when loaded for match guns with light main springs.

While this may be true, I doubt this is the reason for the switch to small primers.

I still don't like this practice as a few of these cases can really screw up a progressive with a case feeder. I don't plan on loading any .45 in the 1050 unless I inspect all of the cases. What a PITA. Actually the best solution is to use another press so the 550 will be the .45 machine from now on.

 

[drgrant]

Federal non toxic ammo uses a small pocket, and probably others. It's not worth worrying about, just pick out those pieces of brass and either set them aside or relegate them to scrap. I think I've only seen about 4 pieces of it total, ever. CCI Blazer AL is starting to use small primers in .45, but that stuff isn't reloadable anyways. (Or at least, it shouldn't be reloaded. )

If I was going to make a WAG..... as to "why" here are a couple of plausible reasons.....

-Since .45 ACP is the only common handgun cartridge that takes a large pistol primer, from a manufacturing standpoint it might make sense to not bother making clean fire/no tox large pistol primers. (Remember, they're lead free and different from normal ones).

-If what Gammon says is correct, maybe smalls are easier to light off, and no-tox primers are notoriously unreliable compared to their regular counterparts, so maybe it was done to reduce the chance of misfires.

ETA: This is another reason why I sort my brass by headstamp, at least to a few tiers. Stuff like Win NT, Fed NT, etc, gets weeded out after cleaning.

-Mike

 

[bill o]

I've picked some up at the range. Blazer and Speer headstamps. On the downstroke of a progressive press, it'll come to a hard stop in a way that tells you not to try and force them.

 

[IPSC_DRL]

Yep, if the Dillon stops dead on the prime stroke, I just stop and pull the piece of brass from the station. No problem unless you stand on the handle trying to seat it.

 

[DukeInFlorida]

My understanding is that the NON-LEAD chemicals in the NT large primers created so much gas that it pushed the pressures over the top. They tried cutting back on the powders, but didn't get reliable or consistent loads. So, they downsized the primer size, with the same non-lead chemicals, and opened up the flash hole to compensate. Consistent and reliable loads.

So, it wasn't done by bean counters as a money savings thing.

It was done to satisfy the tree huggers and global warming people who were afraid of the lead in the bullets and primer chemicals.

Not positive, but I think most if not all of the small primer 45's are loaded with frangeable (compressed copper powder) bullets. No lead means NO LEAD.

 

[willbdavis]

Total pain in the ass. I managed to scoop up a bunch of the Federal small pocket brass at an event I was working. After some surprises on my progressive press I figured it out. Had to sort through all my .45 brass one by one.

 

[DukeInFlorida]

PITA, maybe. But if you get low on large primer 45 ACP brass, this stuff works great if you de-crimp the pocket, and drop in a small primer.

Couple of years ago, I would have given almost anything for a bunch of this stuff.

Have reloaded lots of it with the small primers in the past couple of months, and it shoots fine.

 

[bpm990d]

Are they selling nontoxic primers now? I've seen the loaded ammunition, but have not yet seen the primers.

B

 

[DukeInFlorida]

I haven't seen the non toxic primers for sale anywhere yet, but that was a BIG part of the Non Toxic (NT) design for factory ammo. A lot of police departments are being told (from what my buddies at some of the local PD's have said) that they HAVE to use non-lead (Non Toxic) ammo for training. Just about all of the frangeable stuff is totally lead free now.

Good Read:
http://www.the-range.biz/Nontoxic_Load_Development_7Apr06.pdf

Quote: Magtech, a manufacturer of high performance self defense ammo, is another company
that sells non-toxic primers. The Magtech primers also use DDNP, and are marketed
under the trade name CleanRange.

Wideners had the PMC brand but are out (PMC went out of biz I think):
http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=9016

More good reading:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_166_27/ai_109264981/

 

[BTSDOG]

You won't get far on a progressive trying to stuff a large primer in a small pocket. It's not dangerous.

With all due respect, how could it not be dangerous trying to stuff a "LARGE PISTOL PRIMER" into a "SMALL PRIMER POCKET"?? On my dillon, if everything is set up for large pistol, and i put in a case such as a .45 acp with a small primer pocket, and i pull the handle and try to stick a "LARGE PISTOL PRIMER" into a "SMALL PRIMER POCKET", DONT YOU THINK SOMETHING IS GOING TO HAPPEN ??????? Again, with all due respect.........

 

[Bigtuna]

I picked up a deal on about 5K of the small primer Blazer brass and it's all I use now. No crimps with Blazer, but Federal and Win brass can have crimps. I usually buy a large bulk order of primers and powder online when I come across a sale, and it's nice to stock only one type primer for all the calibers I load.

 

[Gammon]

I haven't seen the non toxic primers for sale anywhere yet, but that was a BIG part of the Non Toxic (NT) design for factory ammo. A lot of police departments are being told (from what my buddies at some of the local PD's have said) that they HAVE to use non-lead (Non Toxic) ammo for training. Just about all of the frangeable stuff is totally lead free now.

Good Read:
http://www.the-range.biz/Nontoxic_Load_Development_7Apr06.pdf

Quote: Magtech, a manufacturer of high performance self defense ammo, is another company
that sells non-toxic primers. The Magtech primers also use DDNP, and are marketed
under the trade name CleanRange.

Wideners had the PMC brand but are out (PMC went out of biz I think):
http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=9016

More good reading:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_166_27/ai_109264981/

The PMC NT primers are Russian. The 5m cases are the same as Wolf, but the individual 1m boxes are marked PMC. They are more expensive than Wolf (I forget the price) but at least they appear to be more reliable as I have had no FTFs in several thousand rounds.

 

[maxdogk911]

I have about a dozen now put aside with the Win. NT stamp. Its no problem on the Dillon 550B. It just doesn't feel right and you stop the stroke and pull it. Just make sure you finish the cycle with the three already in the shell plate and start over again. A little pain, but you have to make sure you don't double charge the other case in the powder die. I will donate my NT cases to whoever wants them, when I get enough of them to ship.

 

[DukeInFlorida]

Gammon has the right source. It's "Wolf" made by Murom Ammunition Factory in Russia.

http://www.flame.murom.ru/en/Htmls/primers.htm

Their non-toxic primers are the ones highlighted in GREEN, and have the letter "E" in the designation.

 

[bpm990d]

Thanks for the links.

B

 

[Patriot]

With all due respect, how could it not be dangerous trying to stuff a "LARGE PISTOL PRIMER" into a "SMALL PRIMER POCKET"?? On my dillon, if everything is set up for large pistol, and i put in a case such as a .45 acp with a small primer pocket, and i pull the handle and try to stick a "LARGE PISTOL PRIMER" into a "SMALL PRIMER POCKET", DONT YOU THINK SOMETHING IS GOING TO HAPPEN ??????? Again, with all due respect.........

I have a Dillon 550B.

Other than your progress comes to a screeching stop, nothing happens. I have done it at least a dozen times. The
edge of the primer hits the case. I suppose you could touch off a primer but in my experience it hasn't happened
yet. Primers aren't easy to ignite. If they were I would have touched of quite a few for any number of reasons, none
of which are related to this problem. The only person I know that had one ignite on him was Fixxah. (Those darn
Hornady LnL presses! )

 

[GTOShootr]

The PMC NT primers are Russian. The 5m cases are the same as Wolf, but the individual 1m boxes are marked PMC. They are more expensive than Wolf (I forget the price) but at least they appear to be more reliable as I have had no FTFs in several thousand rounds.

I had FTF reliability problems with those PMC "E" primers in my CZ75. They seemed hard, like a SRP.

Anything is possible but you can flatten a primer right out in a press and it doesn't go off.

 

[bill o]

Trying to stuff a large primer into a small pocket would be idiotic, but it wouldn't be dangerous. Unless you hurt your wrist applying such ridiculous force to the handle.

 

[TonyT]

There is also some NT 9mm Federal brass with crimped primer pockets.

 

[maineman]

I hate those small primed cases as much as I hate 45 Glock brass mixed in.

 

[exo]

I hate those small primed cases as much as I hate 45 Glock brass mixed in.

Do you mean 45 GAP? Or 45 Auto that was shot from a Glock? My G21 and G30 don't bulge the brass...

 

[Mark from MA]

I have some 45 Federal NT....they are crimped small pistol primers..... I was able to re prime a few, with smalls, but some I couldn't without unusal force, so assume they are crimped.......so I just shitcanned the brass and won't buy it again.

45 Auto shot from my Glock has never caused me any issues reloading............

 

[Timberwolf]

For those of you that don't like the SP 45 brass, load it up and use it at lost brass matches.

Or, you can sell it/give it away/trade for something that you need.