Long Guns in MA

No links on evidence of birdshot?!?! Post 14 and post 15 have links to actual birdshot being used on 3 layers of housing walls in comparison to 5.56 ball and also some tests on penetration for defensive purposes. Conclusion is that high brass birdshot is effective on 2 legged Intruders and loses energy fast enough no tonexit the house

I asked for a link to see what u based your conclusions on.
Why in the world would anyone use ball ammo for home defense?

Jesus Chris this thread has given me AIDS with the amount of stupid and uneducated info and opinions regarding 5.56 and over penetration.

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Your post gave me AIDS.



For anybody else who might consider a shotgun for your home defense go-to, read this:

https://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-56-federal-flight-control-1-buckshot/

I recently patterned some Federal tactical (#1) at the range, and the flight control wad wasn't even beginning to open up until the 12 yard mark.

Basically, for all easily imagined home defense scenarios it would shoot (and hit) like a frangible rifle round.

You patterned it in YOUR gun which is a must. I've tried some.shotguns that open up to a larger than fist sized group at 5 yards (15 feet) which would be quite good for home defense......but I was testing the gun for deer hunting.......and it was actually opening up too quickly as you could not even see a pattern at all at 20 yards and would have been useless on a deer.

Every shotgun patterns differently......even those that are the same model. You have to test different choke combinations and loads. Its part of the process with shotgunning and it is part of the fun.


Final thoughts.....all you crazy sumbithces [smile] that keep countering your arguments about you choice to use an AR rather than a shotgun.....I never said your wrong for chosing an AR......im saying it's not always the only choice as a shotgun is effective for that purpose if the distances are very close in a smallish house. And I stand by it.
 
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All good info here. But....I have some questions and also some doubts.

Article claims he used #4 "heavy dove". I want to know the payload weight, and velocity. That is what shotgunners use to determine the power of a load. The reason I doubt this claim on the test of #4 "heavy dove" is because hunters would never use size 4 birdshot on dove. Never.....ever......have I seen a box of #4 birdshot labeled for dove. For that reason alone I'm.calling bullshit! The author should have listed the payload weight and velocity......just like you see on every other gel test on rifle and handgun ammo. He left it out for a reason I'm sure. bet he was using a #4 field load which is only 1 ounce at about 1100 fps and in shotgun standards is a very light powering.

Some of you may think this is nit picking but I assure you it is not. The difference between #4 field load and and #4 high brass is a big jump in power.....even more of a jump than the difference between 38 special and 357 Magnum.
Ive seen gel tests on 1 1/4 ounce powered up to 1330 fps and those do much better. I'll find the link
 
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Your post gave me AIDS.

Gee, that sounds serious.

At least you can only get it once?

Here's to a speedy re...co...ver...uh, nevermind. Talk to Magic J and find out what his secret is...even if he gives you the hot beef injection, I'm sure you'll be fine.

There's good info in this thread. Whacko said it best that different applications call for different firearms. I'm sticking to my 22" 9 round semi auto shotgun with a red dot because it makes the most sense for my application...especially given the distances I'm dealing with.

Good luck with the AIDS, my little tactical squirrel.
 
All good info here. But....I have some questions and also some doubts.

Article claims he used #4 "heavy dove". I want to know the payload weight, and velocity. That is what shotgunners use to determine the power of a load. The reason I doubt this claim on the test of #4 "heavy dove" is because hunters would never use size 4 birdshot on dove. Never.....ever......have I seen a box of #4 birdshot labeled for dove. For that reason alone I'm.calling bullshit! The author should have listed the payload weight and velocity......just like you see on every other gel test on rifle and handgun ammo. He left it out for a reason I'm sure. bet he was using a #4 field load which is only 1 ounce at about 1100 fps and in shotgun standards is a very light powering.

Some of you may think this is nit picking but I assure you it is not. The difference between #4 field load and and #4 high brass is a big jump in power.....even more of a jump than the difference between 38 special and 357 Magnum.
Ive seen gel tests on 1 1/4 ounce powered up to 1330 fps and those do much better. I'll find the link

One last thing on birdshot for home defense. There are no military or law enforcement agencies who choose birdshot as their duty load--and there is a very simple reason for that. Birdshot will not reliably and effectively stop a threat from a human adversary.

The unspoken assumption in the head of anyone who imagines they are being "responsible" by choosing birdshot for a potentially deadly home defense scenario is that they don't REALLY think they need to shoot to STOP a threat--they imagine that if only they wound badly enough, or inflict enough pain, the threat will make a decision to stop the attack and go away. Now that may or may not be true in a given instance, depending upon the particulars and unique motivation of an attacker--but understand that it is an operative tactical assumption underpinning your logic.

Are there really NO defensive positions or firing lanes that offer an adequate backstop for a more effective projectile?

It's possible--but I kinda doubt it.

Tactical Squirrel, out.
 
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Gee, that sounds serious.

At least you can only get it once?

Here's to a speedy re...co...ver...uh, nevermind. Talk to Magic J and find out what his secret is...even if he gives you the hot beef injection, I'm sure you'll be fine.

There's good info in this thread. Whacko said it best that different applications call for different firearms. I'm sticking to my 22" 9 round semi auto shotgun with a red dot because it makes the most sense for my application...especially given the distances I'm dealing with.

Good luck with the AIDS, my little tactical squirrel.

If you wanna use a shotgun for your hd firearms that's cool. But your entire first post was filled with alot of misinformation and everyone just piled more on top of it from there.

No one uses m193 or any 55 fmj for HD; Those are the rounds you and everyone else were talking about zipping through steel and drywall.

The ammo tailored for HD in ARs have less over penetration than shotguns and pistol rounds. This is a known fact. You can watch ballistic tests using 75 grain TAP or 75 grain Prvi BTHP or some kind of 55 or 64 grain non bonded Soft Point; either Speer or Federal and it will be pretty evident that any of those will do you better than any shotgun or pistol in any HD application pertaining to close living areas with people reside.

Personally for me, I'd like to use a subsonic all copper round in 300blkout for HD...either Gorilla Silverback 205 gr or Leheigh ME 194 gr.

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75 grain TAP or 75 grain Prvi BTHP or some kind of 55 or 64 grain non bonded Soft Point; either Speer or Federal

subsonic all copper round in 300blkout for HD...either Gorilla Silverback 205 gr or Leheigh ME 194 gr.

Do you use these because the military uses them? Just pointing out that you just completely contradicted yourself because...misinformation.
 
My understanding is that most civilians start with .22 LR rifles, but I've got no idea where you'd go to get training.
I stopped reading the thread at page 4, so I don't know if someone already suggested this, Appleseed, great rifle training without the kind friendly drill sergeant. You will also get a free history lesson.
 
Knowing nothing else, I know that it would be a huge mistake to use 'the military does/doesn't do it' as justification for doing/not doing something. Ask me how I know.

Cpl., out.

As the SOLE justification? Sure. That would be retarded--right, Corporal? For example--I don't use Ball/Full Metal Jacket for personal defense because I'm not bound by the Hague and Geneva Conventions. I can choose to use an expanding round instead, and not get accused of war crimes.

I also don't choose, buy, or engineer my small-arms ammo on a low-bid basis.

Those are just a couple for-instances.
 
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