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I'll talk to some of the guys I work with, see what they recommend. (construction workers)
Sounds like what you read online is along the right lines though.
 
Gun/vault contracting is a specialized field, involving particular design aspects and added liability.
IMHO - Unless you are OK with spending a good chunk of money...... you should continue to do your own research and perform the work yourself.
 
It would probably be less invloved to lag some plate steel to the joists.
If someone had the time and foresight to know it's there and get through it, they know way too much.
 
You don't need concrete. Build the walls and ceiling with 2x4 (or 2x6), use 3/4" plywood to sheet both sides then drywall on top to make it look normal, run rebar perpendicular to the studs/joists inside the walls/ceiling, leave the rebar loose. If someone tries to cut through the saw will hit the rebar, which will spin thus stopping/ruining the saw. Since you can't stop, only slow down, add a good alarm system. A friend of mine added an external horn with a wire running up the side of the house. The catch was that the wire was a fake cross-connected at the top and part of the alarm system as a normally closed switch...That's right, cut what looks like an alarm horn wire and the alarm goes off.
 
Steel plate would be more than adequate. Even just running several layers of wire mesh/screen between layers of plywood would be good enough.
 
3/16 or 1/4 steel plate lagged to the floor joists and bolted or welded together at seams....I think it would be easier to blow through the 8" cinder block wall with a sledge hammer than cut through hardwood floor, 3/4 sub floor, floor joists and the steel..
 
Don't think stopping a determined thief, think delaying action and skill level of the thief and from there determine how much time do you want to the theif given a skill set to consume time.

In all scenarios think layered protection

allow me to elaborate.

Common crack head 2x4 or 2x6 with metal mesh and wireless alarm system on the outside and guns in safe inside, I'd say 30 min of protection. Add in a big ass dog and an alarm to n the house, I bet they don't get anywhere.


pro theif with torched and 3/4 in steel plate and wireless alarm, who knows.

Be reful about a wireless system inside a room with wire mesh in the walls think faraday cage ( i.e. Alarm no communicate to outside world wirelessly, but damn near emp proof if me ash is on ceiling and all walls)
 
pavlin said:
I forgot to mention the gun room will have dedicated standalone wireless security. So potential buglar will first have to disable house alarm, then break in into the vault then disable vault alarm. Sounds like a lot of trouble to go thru.
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Dude your collection must be awesome.
 
1 inch plywood walls with 1/4 inch steel plate should do it. You can bolt together the steel plates with small angle irons and bolts with locktite, and they will not be able to be dismantled from the outside. The door, and door jamb, would be the weak point then, so figure out some sort of reinforced steel door with steel jamb of as heavy a gauge steel you can find.

I would also vaporproof the concrete walls as much as possible. Possibly coat th entire concrete wall surface with something like Xypex.
 
Might not be the answer you are looking for, but if the criminal is good enough he is going to get in. I would think you are better off hiding the whole gun room or make it look as innocuous as possible. My plan when I get a new place is to make a solid 'foundation' wall right across the whole basement so unless someone measures the dimensions they won't realize that it's too short. Hide the access door behind an easy to move bookshelve or something similar... and then NEVER post about it or talk to anyone who you can't trust 100%

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spcantwell said:
Might not be the answer you are looking for, but if the criminal is good enough he is going to get in. I would think you are better off hiding the whole gun room or make it look as innocuous as possible. My plan when I get a new place is to make a solid 'foundation' wall right across the whole basement so unless someone measures the dimensions they won't realize that it's too short. Hide the access door behind an easy to move bookshelve or something similar... and then NEVER post about it or talk to anyone who you can't trust 100%

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Absolutely fantastic plan. Having it not be obvious is one of the best defenses against theft. Part of the problem most gun owners face is that as a rule we have these good sized "safes" That are sometimes painted very nicely with logos advertising the company that built them and the rub is that you usually want it to be fairly accessible should YOU need/want to access the contents. The best you can usually do is hide it in a closet, or something, but once it is found, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to determine that there is either guns, or something else of value inside.
 
42! said:
You don't need concrete. Build the walls and ceiling with 2x4 (or 2x6), use 3/4" plywood to sheet both sides then drywall on top to make it look normal, run rebar perpendicular to the studs/joists inside the walls/ceiling, leave the rebar loose. If someone tries to cut through the saw will hit the rebar, which will spin thus stopping/ruining the saw. Since you can't stop, only slow down, add a good alarm system. A friend of mine added an external horn with a wire running up the side of the house. The catch was that the wire was a fake cross-connected at the top and part of the alarm system as a normally closed switch...That's right, cut what looks like an alarm horn wire and the alarm goes off.
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These are some great ideas too. As someone who works in the home renovation field, I can say with certainty that free spinning rebar, or even steel water pipe inside a wall where it can't be contained is nearly impossible to cut through. I bet that would take longer to get through than rebar reinforced cinder block wall, or poured concrete because a large diamond/carbide saw would cut a nice door right through both the concrete and steel with ease.
 
You won't stop someone who is determined enough to create an entrance. The most you can do is prevent just the casual prospect from entering. I've thought about a separate room in the past and someday will go ahead and do it.
I would build the bracing with 4X4's. Lag the footer into the floor, tapcons are really easy to use, and then use a steel brace to connect the uprights to the footer and header. That should complete the wall framing. For the door, something in a metal with metal framing like an exit door, still, this will be the weakest point. I'd then run a new separate 20 amp circuit, ceiling lighting and wall connections. Over the walls, on both sides, across the ceiling I'd just use chain link fencing pulled tight. Over that some plywood, maybe 3/4". On the inside and ceiling maybe wall board or some knotty pine over that for looks but on the outside I'd probably do wainscoting or maybe bookshelves or something with a movable panel to conceal the door. If say you have forced hot air or AC, I'd probably run a duct into and out of it for a bit of airflow. From there I'd build out the interior the way I want it. And lastly, whatever flooring. I'd probably go hardwood.
 
The ceiling aspect sounds like over kill to me. Unless you are building a panic room. The amount of time it would take to go through the floor to get into your gun room would be way more than 99.9999% of dudes would ever spend. I have a "gun room" 3/4 inch plywood walls with board over and steal door. Electronic entry and Dedicated hidden alarm system. First one would have to defeat the house alarm before even getting to the room. By the time they found out the gun room has a alarm too it's already to late, it's been triggered. No crook is hanging out for more than a minute with alarms going off. I'd spend the ceiling time and money on cameras and such. Good luck.
 
A concrete or steel sub-ceiling might be heavier than you realize. I'm not sure you would want that hanging off of the first floor joists. You might need to install lally columns and beams to support it all. First step might be to Google around and try to find a website where you can punch in the length/width/height of various materials and get some rough ideas of the weight. My little homemade welding table has a 2' x 3' top that is 1/4" thick and the top alone feels like it's 50-60 pounds. 20 of those is still only 120 square feet of ceiling (10' x 12' room) and roughly 1200 pounds. I'm not a builder, just a handy guy so take this with a grain of salt. I could be way off with this.

Edited to add: Just found a metals weight calculator and steel is about 10 pounds for 1/4" thick square foot. I was a little light with my original guess so I just edited it.

http://www.onlinemetals.com/calculator.cfm
 
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BigTimber said:
The ceiling aspect sounds like over kill to me. Unless you are building a panic room. The amount of time it would take to go through the floor to get into your gun room would be way more than 99.9999% of dudes would ever spend. I have a "gun room" 3/4 inch plywood walls with board over and steal door. Electronic entry and Dedicated hidden alarm system. First one would have to defeat the house alarm before even getting to the room. By the time they found out the gun room has a alarm too it's already to late, it's been triggered. No crook is hanging out for more than a minute with alarms going off. I'd spend the ceiling time and money on cameras and such. Good luck.
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Good point on the ceiling. In most cases, if alarms are disabled, or not in the equation, the door/frame will be the weakest link anyway. Even if the perp cuts through your nice hardwood and subfloor to make a ceiling hatch, what are they going to do? Rappel in Mission Impossible style?[rofl]
 
If you do a room you will need a door...

http://www.prosteelsecurity.com/VaultDoorIndex2



ProSteel-Vault-Door-Price-Trans-Jan2013.png




I would just build a regular room and retor-fit it with something like this... maybe get two....but it would take some tiem to fill it as it holds 200 firearms...but as someone has already said....multiple layers.. alarm, motion lights, dogs...all to deter the common criminal. The not so common criminal...well...

http://www.sportsmansteelsafes.com/fortress-large-capacity-safe.html

gibraltar-big-gun-safe.jpg



If I built new I would get something like this...this holds 600 firearms...

http://www.sportsmansteelsafes.com/fortress-large-capacity-safe.html

7x8x8-walk-in-shelter.jpg
 
I have an insurance rider for like 15K. Worth the 100 or so a year for peace of mind.

Mike

Sent from my cell phone with a tiny keyboard and large thumbs...
 
Steel gets expensive quick especially if you go thick, since my house isnt finnished(or just needs to be refinnished) i would cut a hole in the floor ,which is the ceiling to your gunroom and have the concrete truck pour right through a window filling the concrete blocks and ceiling in a monolithic pour.

That being said. To do it properly you'd need to sawcut your basement floor and install footing where the wall will go or its weight will crack your basement floor slab.i assume youll be pulling a permit...right?RIGHT?

Several gunrooms ive seen outside of MA just used plywood sandwiching metal mesh between it for the ceilings and walls.... this wont stop a demo saw though. It someone wants in theyll get in.


Edit... make sure you get a door that swings into the room and run a phoneline in there so you dont trap yourself in there.
 
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Btw, on the topic of safe room doors, don't forget to check out "aritectual reuse" type places. There was one in new bedford a few years ago that cleaned our a couple of banks. The had 2 full size bank vault doors for sale... not sure how easy they are to mount but any common criminal that sees that is going to S a brick and look for another house...

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Depending on when and how your house was built, your basment walls are on footings, then your basment floor was poured.. anywhere from 4 to 8 inches thick.. it might have wire mesh it might not.. your footings more than likely have rebar in them...you didnt specify if your current basment walls are concrete or block .

If you stack block without a footing it more than likely will crack your slab... if you fill the block with concrete i will almost certainly crack your slab,also this new wall will be suporting your ceiling of your gun room which may or may not, depending on how you build it weigh alot.

If you dont fill the block, anyone could easliy smash through with a sledge hammer quickly.. and only a total retard would try to attack it via the door...

And dont buy your door from sportsmen steel. While they have a good product.. there prices have become high and they are a clownshoe operation.. if you wait and look around you can get a better door not long ago someone posted one that if removed could be had for free.

I got a great deal through sportsmen steel but it took like 14 months to take deliver and had to ship back once due to the condition it arrived in. They also base out of CA and maybe texas so its just not practical.
 
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From places I've seen like Logan airport they use steel mesh behind Sheetrock on all security walls and plastered ceilings. You could also put woven fiberglass mat up against the subfloor followed by 3/4 plywood. Any type of circular or reciprocal blades will jam up in the mat. If you wanted to go even further you could put a layer of 1/2" durarock between the mat and plywood. Anyone that truly wants to get in will always find a way...
 
pavlin said:
My basement walls are concrete and the house was built in early nineties. Not really sure how thick the floor is. I figured since the wall that I'm building will be in between two foundation walls the weight of my wall will partially be supported by the foundation walls footing and won't be solely on the slab. Am I thinking right?
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I wouldnt say your thinking is wrong... when you put you first row of block down i assume youd drill some holes to drive rebar into. At that point youll know about how thick your slab is and you'll have to make a desicsion if it will suport the weight of your wall.
Count the block multiple by the weight of one block... a google search will tell you the concrete volume of one block and multiply that by the number of bock..its heavy.

We Know concrete has great compression strength like the downward force of your house but your current walls arent design to suport weight the way your thinking. But it is rebar that most likely is not in your floor that would allow your slab to support a wall.. walls have footings for a reason(s)

I mean sure you could do it but down the road you might regret it, this why people use the plywood or sheetrock with wire mesh...

Just for laughs google ICF construction..(insulated concret form).
It may be a lighter alternative. You could go thinner on the wall saving weight and they have studs in them for attaching sheetrock....people wouldnt even know its a reenforced concrete wall until the go to bust through it which adds a suprise layer of security
 
I have a family member that did this to an extent when he bought his house. Step 1 purchased an amsec safe. Think he paid $6500 installed. Has a 90min fire rating.

Then he built a I'd say a 10x10 cinder block wall around said safe. Then framed the outside of the wall with 2x4 and made a sandwich of drywall-wire mesh -plywood- Chain link fence - plywood. Then he made the interior with the walls of 1/4 steel and plywood. Ceiling is the same as the exterior.

The door opens outward and is a industrial exterior security door that has a wood skin on it to make it look less flashy to blend in better. Has hooks for a 4x4 on the interior so he can use said room as a panic room and can make the door near impossible to open from outside when your in the room. Has a dedicated phone line ran into the room also has a tv wired up to his home security cameras and the room also has a security system.

Exterior of room has metal shelves and metal cabinets surrounding it to make it more inconvient to reach the walls. He uses the safe to store his guns and use the room itself to store his ammo, 48 hours worth of food and water and if I remember correctly the room has an internal battery to give him enough electricity to run his mini fridge, de humidifier, and security system for a few days.

if you looked at the room from the outside it just looks like a storage closet. Doesn't look near as big as it is and unless you knew it was there you wouldn't have a clue.

++ Forgot also his electrical panel is also located in this room so in theory he could kill the power to his electrical receptacles in the basement so any power tools would need to be battery powered. And it would be pitch black aswell. But he would have power because of his battery backup.
 
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I just finished my gun room in a similar location. Picked a corner of the basement and added 2 cinder walls making a room. I used rebar vertically as well as horizontally. You shouldn't need to add any footings if you can utilize the footings already in place. The foundation should have footings along the walls and down the center where the lolly columns are. If you can get both ends of the walls to land on a footer then you're all set. Using horizontal rebar in the first couple rows and filling the block with quickcrete will prevent the wall from ever sagging.
I didn't go all out on the door, used a 90 min steel fire door and built the wall around the frame. Still figuring out the ceiling aspect, I left half inch threaded rods coming out of the wall so no matter what I go with I can secure it to the walls.
 
I'm not trying to tell u how to live your life but. If someone is dedicated enough to cut through your floor you have bigger problems probably. Mostly being your dead. I mean that is coordinated and dedicated attack to get your stuff. Meaning they know you and know what's in your house and feel the need to get it. But building up to your floor joists and just tacking in a few layers of chicken wire to the ceiling should ruin most saws. But honestly if they know it's there I'd take a sledge hammer in the basement to the wall. One it'll deaden the sound two it's easier than figuring out what the f to do once I have a hole in your floor.
 
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