308 Rem 700 1:11 1/4 twist 24 in

[HDJM1717]

I am having issues developing a great load. I am currently loading with Varget, Win Brass, and Win primers, is with the 175 SMK

The throat on my rifle is extremely long. My lands are 3.356 so working up a load is difficult. I can pull off the lands by .010 with 44 grains and shoot a .276 from a bi-pod at 100yrd. However the problem lies in going the distance. When I move back to say, 266 yards adjust 3.2 MOA the spread is 4 inches. I don’t know what I am doing wrong but I have worked this load from powder charges for 41.2 to 45.5 and moved the jump from 3.339 to now 3.350. I know when my rifle is in harmony with the load due to the recoil and the smoothness of the kick but it seems like I am finding my self developing a load for each 100 yards.

I don’t know if I can communicate adequately about the harmony of the rifle. The recoils feels like everything is in tune. The muzzle jump to the recoil to the shoulder is like have a perfectly tuned guitar. There are two loads that will shot smooth 1. 42.2 grains at 3.339 ogive. 2. 44.1 at 3.346 finally 45.2 grains at 3.350 (last one is not the most in tune but does fairly well)

Any advice of why I would be see such a difference at changing distance. Brass is all sizes the same and everything is weighed out. It is aggravating when I can not develop a load better than the factor Federal SMK. As much as I shoot I thought by reloading I might save a little money. I was wrong esp when I get pissed and determine to create the best load for my rifle.

If any of you can help I would greatly appreciate it.


FYI I do not have a chrono but if it helps at 44 grains at 3.346 my math should have a velocity of 2600-2650. I could be way off but this is what I have to work with. After shooting this many rounds I can only afford a pen and paper or else I would buy a chrono. lol

 

[mac1911]

I am having issues developing a great load. I am currently loading with Varget, Win Brass, and Win primers, is with the 175 SMK

The throat on my rifle is extremely long. My lands are 3.356 so working up a load is difficult. I can pull off the lands by .010 with 44 grains and shoot a .276 from a bi-pod at 100yrd. However the problem lies in going the distance. When I move back to say, 266 yards adjust 3.2 MOA the spread is 4 inches. I don’t know what I am doing wrong but I have worked this load from powder charges for 41.2 to 45.5 and moved the jump from 3.339 to now 3.350. I know when my rifle is in harmony with the load due to the recoil and the smoothness of the kick but it seems like I am finding my self developing a load for each 100 yards.

I don’t know if I can communicate adequately about the harmony of the rifle. The recoils feels like everything is in tune. The muzzle jump to the recoil to the shoulder is like have a perfectly tuned guitar. There are two loads that will shot smooth 1. 42.2 grains at 3.339 ogive. 2. 44.1 at 3.346 finally 45.2 grains at 3.350 (last one is not the most in tune but does fairly well)

Any advice of why I would be see such a difference at changing distance. Brass is all sizes the same and everything is weighed out. It is aggravating when I can not develop a load better than the factor Federal SMK. As much as I shoot I thought by reloading I might save a little money. I was wrong esp when I get pissed and determine to create the best load for my rifle.

If any of you can help I would greatly appreciate it.


FYI I do not have a chrono but if it helps at 44 grains at 3.346 my math should have a velocity of 2600-2650. I could be way off but this is what I have to work with. After shooting this many rounds I can only afford a pen and paper or else I would buy a chrono. lol

Maybe just maybe the 1/11 twist is just not friendly with the 175s ?

What is the end use/goal of this rifle

Is it a light weight hunting rifle or a heavy match rifle.



How often do you shoot past 100 yards?
4” group at 266 yards is 2.5 moa

It could just be the difference in your skill, hold , optics , head position , lighting

If your shots are consistently grouping and landing in the correct spot im going to gander its environmental not load

Now why is the lead/throat so long ?
Do you have a over all length gauge. Does the lead exceed magazine capacity.

 

[mac1911]

I am having issues developing a great load. I am currently loading with Varget, Win Brass, and Win primers, is with the 175 SMK

The throat on my rifle is extremely long. My lands are 3.356 so working up a load is difficult. I can pull off the lands by .010 with 44 grains and shoot a .276 from a bi-pod at 100yrd. However the problem lies in going the distance. When I move back to say, 266 yards adjust 3.2 MOA the spread is 4 inches. I don’t know what I am doing wrong but I have worked this load from powder charges for 41.2 to 45.5 and moved the jump from 3.339 to now 3.350. I know when my rifle is in harmony with the load due to the recoil and the smoothness of the kick but it seems like I am finding my self developing a load for each 100 yards.

I don’t know if I can communicate adequately about the harmony of the rifle. The recoils feels like everything is in tune. The muzzle jump to the recoil to the shoulder is like have a perfectly tuned guitar. There are two loads that will shot smooth 1. 42.2 grains at 3.339 ogive. 2. 44.1 at 3.346 finally 45.2 grains at 3.350 (last one is not the most in tune but does fairly well)

Any advice of why I would be see such a difference at changing distance. Brass is all sizes the same and everything is weighed out. It is aggravating when I can not develop a load better than the factor Federal SMK. As much as I shoot I thought by reloading I might save a little money. I was wrong esp when I get pissed and determine to create the best load for my rifle.

If any of you can help I would greatly appreciate it.


FYI I do not have a chrono but if it helps at 44 grains at 3.346 my math should have a velocity of 2600-2650. I could be way off but this is what I have to work with. After shooting this many rounds I can only afford a pen and paper or else I would buy a chrono. lol

So re reading this , are you sure thats a 308?
If your case head to ogive is 3.35” and your loading to .010 off thats 3.25” to the ogive.
Factory 308 is 2.8” OAL


What am I missing ? I feel like your bullet is just balancing in the neck.

 

[HDJM1717]

So re reading this , are you sure thats a 308?
If your case head to ogive is 3.35” and your loading to .010 off thats 3.25” to the ogive.
Factory 308 is 2.8” OAL


What am I missing ? I feel like your bullet is just balancing in the neck.

Yes it's a .308

 

[mac1911]

Yes it's a .308

Maybe its time for a new barrel

 

[SJan]

Get a Chrono before anything else

 

[RankAmateur]

OP, sorry, I have to agree with @mac1911, something is off here. 175 gr SMKs measure about 1.255" base to tip. Trim length for .308 Win cases is 2.005". I just took an empty case that is longer than that (2.01") and set a 175 gr SMK on the neck (neck is already sized so the bullet's bearing surface will NOT enter the neck). This arrangement measured 3.06" cartridge base to bullet tip (so COAL) with the bullet literally falling out of the case. Using a Hornady bullet comparator for 30 cal, the CBTO for this arrangement is 2.41". There is no way to get a CBTO longer than this with 175 SMKs in .308Win. Your measurements suggest a CBTO that is roughly 1/3 of an inch longer than longest length possible to bullet tip (and almost an inch longer than the longest CBTO I could measure) without the bullet even being seated. Not clear what the issue might be but suggest remeasuring your rounds as a first step. Is it possible your calipers are not zeroed to your comparator?

11.25 twist should be fine for the 175 SMKs. A pretty standard twist for .308Win is 11.25 and even some custom rifles are built with this twist for that specific bullet.

 

[paul73]

i use 44gr varget on the 175gr .308 and it works well. 2572fps according to what i have in my strelok for the 20" ar10. a longer bolt gun should do faster.
like others said - 175 SMK wants to sit at the COAL for the standard AR10 magazine - that translates to the max 2.8" end to end. it will not like 3.3" ogive - not sure, is it a 3.6" COAL? i agree with said above - seems not to be possible, really.

175 SMK will not be a best bullet for bolt gun. you may like much better longer one with less drag - something like an RDF noslers or hybrid bergers. look at them and note the shape difference.

30 Caliber 175gr RDF (100ct)

30 Caliber 175gr RDF

www.nosler.com

or here - look at the shape of all hybrid target ones. it is what i use for 6 dasher - in 6mm of course, not .30

Rifle Bullets Archives

Here at Berger Bullets we make the most premium rifle bullets in the game. All bullets are made with one die to guarantee consistency and quality.

bergerbullets.com

and note they offer 185, bot 175 - which also makes sense for a bolt gun for long range.

find a sale on them, of course, they should be selling from 40 to 55c somewhat.
and all bullets that fly in sub-moa for longer distances will all cost an arm and a leg.

and here is how berger hybrid performs at 300yds when all conditions are good - only i was never able to repeat such a group. and afraid may be i overheated the barrel since, as, well, it is not doing it that good anymore.
overheat is really a thing - an mpa gun use below came with a warning not to exceed 122 deg F in consequent series. and i know that a 308 gun heats up crazy fast, way faster then 6 dasher or 6.5cm. i since placed sensor patches on all barrels to track the temperature.

 

[RankAmateur]

Doesn't address OP's original question, but it might be useful to understand OP's goal with this load? Whatever you're loading seems acceptable to you for 100 yd range but not so at 266 yds. What range are you looking to shoot? If you're max range is under 300 yds and you're trying to achieve maximum precision, you might also experiment with lighter flat-based bullets? You simply don't see short-range (200 yd) benchrest shooters using boat tails. The long, high BC, heavier bullets are best for bucking the wind for long range, but are actually less inherently precise than flat-based bullets at shorter ranges (<300 yds).

 

[mac1911]

Doesn't address OP's original question, but it might be useful to understand OP's goal with this load? Whatever you're loading seems acceptable to you for 100 yd range but not so at 266 yds. What range are you looking to shoot? If you're max range is under 300 yds and you're trying to achieve maximum precision, you might also experiment with lighter flat-based bullets? You simply don't see short-range (200 yd) benchrest shooters using boat tails. The long, high BC, heavier bullets are best for bucking the wind for long range, but are actually less inherently precise than flat-based bullets at shorter ranges (<300 yds).

With out much load development
At 200 yards the TNT 135s will hold MOA when/if I do my part with my 1903a4 clone. Out of a 1/10 twist 30-06 with a “mile” of jump.
OP reset - check your measurements and fat thumb for “wrong” button

 

[RankAmateur]

With out much load development
At 200 yards the TNT 135s will hold MOA when/if I do my part with my 1903a4 clone. Out of a 1/10 twist 30-06 with a “mile” of jump.
OP reset - check your measurements and fat thumb for “wrong” button

Yeah, I have .308 loads with 155s, 168s and 175s for mid and longer ranges, all optimized fairly well. My "hummer", though, is 125gr SMKs over IMR 3031. Found a seating node 45 thousandths off the lands that's 8 thousandths wide. Haven't reworked the load since (grin). Quarter MOA at 200 yds in my rifle (Bartlein 23" 5R 11.25 twist barrel on a GAP Crusader II action).

When I measured the CBTO on that round this morning it struck me that the comparator body (again, Hornady) on my calipers is just about an inch long. Could it be that measurements OP was getting were accurate but didn't zero the caliper with the body attached? If that's the case, then the relative measurements OP produced would be completely accurate... Don't know, hope something in here helps him.

 

[RankAmateur]

When I move back to say, 266 yards adjust 3.2 MOA the spread is 4 inches. I don’t know what I am doing wrong but I have worked this load from powder charges for 41.2 to 45.5 and moved the jump from 3.339 to now 3.350. I know when my rifle is in harmony with the load due to the recoil and the smoothness of the kick but it seems like I am finding my self developing a load for each 100 yards.

Sorry for the fragmented thoughts. OP, when you group opens up at 266 yds, is there any characteristic shape to the groups? Not intending to patronize, so forgive me. Are the groups spread out horizontally, or vertically, or just larger blobs?

 

[Mountain]

OP, what do the groups look like at your 266 yards distance? All over, vertically spread, horizontally spread, or mostly together with a flyer or two?

A chronograph would tell the tale, but how are your powder measurements?

Also, what type of Remington 700? There are a lot of options- heavy barrel chassis stock on one end and lightweight barrel wood stock on the other.

 

[mac1911]

OP, what do the groups look like at your 266 yards distance? All over, vertically spread, horizontally spread, or mostly together with a flyer or two?

A chronograph would tell the tale, but how are your powder measurements?

Also, what type of Remington 700? There are a lot of options- heavy barrel chassis stock on one end and lightweight barrel wood stock on the other.

We need pictures!!!

 

[Mountain]

175 SMK will not be a best bullet for bolt gun. you may like much better longer one with less drag - something like an RDF noslers or hybrid bergers. look at them and note the shape difference.

30 Caliber 175gr RDF (100ct)

30 Caliber 175gr RDF

www.nosler.com

overheat is really a thing - an mpa gun use below came with a warning not to exceed 122 deg F in consequent series. and i know that a 308 gun heats up crazy fast, way faster then 6 dasher or 6.5cm. i since placed sensor patches on all barrels to track the temperature.

While a 175 SMK may not be the absolute best option at distance, it is capable of accuracy below 1/2 MOA given all other factors are ideal. RDF's etc. aren't going to magically fix that 4" spread. For sure the RDF's and the like are a better option at distance, but there's nothing wrong with the SMK's and for decades competitors have been winning Perry and Quantico matches out to 1,000 yards with SMK's.

IIRC at Perry Nationals last year my Modern Military rapid string with a self built Bula M14 (in .308) was a 98, after shooting a perfect 100 in slow prone. Ambient was pretty close to 100 degrees already, plus sitting in the sun all day and the slow prone string had to have that barrel well north of 122 degrees before I even shot the rapid string. After rapids I could probably fry bacon on that barrel. Next summer under similar conditions I'm going to check the barrel temp after rapids. I've had no drop in accuracy from this rifle and it is shot regularly in matches.

OP - you say the throat is 'long'? Maybe that barrel is shot out? Excessive throat wear would be a sign. What's the history of that barrel?

 

[Road_Clam]

I am having issues developing a great load. I am currently loading with Varget, Win Brass, and Win primers, is with the 175 SMK

The throat on my rifle is extremely long. My lands are 3.356 so working up a load is difficult. I can pull off the lands by .010 with 44 grains and shoot a .276 from a bi-pod at 100yrd. However the problem lies in going the distance. When I move back to say, 266 yards adjust 3.2 MOA the spread is 4 inches. I don’t know what I am doing wrong but I have worked this load from powder charges for 41.2 to 45.5 and moved the jump from 3.339 to now 3.350. I know when my rifle is in harmony with the load due to the recoil and the smoothness of the kick but it seems like I am finding my self developing a load for each 100 yards.

I don’t know if I can communicate adequately about the harmony of the rifle. The recoils feels like everything is in tune. The muzzle jump to the recoil to the shoulder is like have a perfectly tuned guitar. There are two loads that will shot smooth 1. 42.2 grains at 3.339 ogive. 2. 44.1 at 3.346 finally 45.2 grains at 3.350 (last one is not the most in tune but does fairly well)

Any advice of why I would be see such a difference at changing distance. Brass is all sizes the same and everything is weighed out. It is aggravating when I can not develop a load better than the factor Federal SMK. As much as I shoot I thought by reloading I might save a little money. I was wrong esp when I get pissed and determine to create the best load for my rifle.

If any of you can help I would greatly appreciate it.


FYI I do not have a chrono but if it helps at 44 grains at 3.346 my math should have a velocity of 2600-2650. I could be way off but this is what I have to work with. After shooting this many rounds I can only afford a pen and paper or else I would buy a chrono. lol

Couple comments. First is need to know what your exact gear is and methods for shooting. You have the original plastic R700 stock ? you will never achieve consistiency with the Rem's "flexi-boing" stocks. You will get pressure on the barrel when running a bipod. You say your using a bipod , what are you using for rear support ? A bipod is not the most consistent way to precision load test, a quality rest will be better especially beyond 200 yds. If possible screw a piece of 1x3 wood to your table, load the bipod legs against the wood when shooting. I'm also a little confused by your term " I know when my rifle is in harmony with the load due to the recoil and the smoothness of the kick" . I have 3 R700's and weather they are shooting .3 MOA at 200 yds or 4 MOA the recoil feels exactly the same. My R700 26" Varmint 308 hands down favors the 168 SMK or Nosler CC . I had excellent results with W748 and Benchmark powders. My data is all collected shooting at 200 meters. I found that the key to finding a CONSISTENT node was to back off on the velocities, not run hot loads. I never saw really good precision with the 175's . I did find some great loads with the 180 gr as well. I've tested a TON of loads with the R700's you can get them to shoot. Some shoot better than others out of the box. A quality free floating stock is the #1 upgrade you need to make.

 

[mac1911]

OP, sorry, I have to agree with @mac1911, something is off here. 175 gr SMKs measure about 1.255" base to tip. Trim length for .308 Win cases is 2.005". I just took an empty case that is longer than that (2.01") and set a 175 gr SMK on the neck (neck is already sized so the bullet's bearing surface will NOT enter the neck). This arrangement measured 3.06" cartridge base to bullet tip (so COAL) with the bullet literally falling out of the case. Using a Hornady bullet comparator for 30 cal, the CBTO for this arrangement is 2.41". There is no way to get a CBTO longer than this with 175 SMKs in .308Win. Your measurements suggest a CBTO that is roughly 1/3 of an inch longer than longest length possible to bullet tip (and almost an inch longer than the longest CBTO I could measure) without the bullet even being seated. Not clear what the issue might be but suggest remeasuring your rounds as a first step. Is it possible your calipers are not zeroed to your comparator?

11.25 twist should be fine for the 175 SMKs. A pretty standard twist for .308Win is 11.25 and even some custom rifles are built with this twist for that specific bullet.

I think you nailed it,
Factory Creedmoor Match 308 with Hornady comparator insert
Zeroed and not add .010” and where close to OPs numbers

 

[paul73]

i think OP got spooked by all those responses.

 

[mac1911]

i think OP got spooked by all those responses.

Maybe hes upset his fat thumb kept hitting 3 instead of 2
Lol, god I hope he was not spooked that easylol

Hey paul so you track your ammo temp like your barrel?
Over the top thinking but wonder if you could have a PID controlled ammo temp regulator?

 

[paul73]

Over the top thinking but wonder if you could have a PID controlled ammo temp regulator?

hmm. that would be a peculiar project indeed.

strictly from the physics perspective, naturally, we would need a barrel temp regulator, and the ammo regulator. otherwise it is quite obviously a botched experiment, as most important parameters are not stable.

laughs aside - i wonder how the brand new alpha brass will work out on that 6 dasher gun, as the old lapua brass after 5-6 rotations became too beaten up and really should be discarded now.

 

[mac1911]

hmm. that would be a peculiar project indeed.

strictly from the physics perspective, naturally, we would need a barrel temp regulator, and the ammo regulator. otherwise it is quite obviously a botched experiment, as most important parameters are not stable.

laughs aside - i wonder how the brand new alpha brass will work out on that 6 dasher gun, as the old lapua brass after 5-6 rotations became too beaten up and really should be discarded now.

What beats up the brass?
Off topic so ne real need to answer

 

[paul73]

What beats up the brass?

pressure...

 

[Road_Clam]

hmm. that would be a peculiar project indeed.

strictly from the physics perspective, naturally, we would need a barrel temp regulator, and the ammo regulator. otherwise it is quite obviously a botched experiment, as most important parameters are not stable.

laughs aside - i wonder how the brand new alpha brass will work out on that 6 dasher gun, as the old lapua brass after 5-6 rotations became too beaten up and really should be discarded now.

One of these days i'm going to treat myself to a Lapua brass purchase. I have about 300 LCLR brass, and I really like it. Very good consistency, and really tough brass.

 

[paul73]

One of these days i'm going to treat myself to a Lapua brass purchase. I have about 300 LCLR brass, and I really like it. Very good consistency, and really tough brass.

For dasher it needs to be fireformed which adds a step - and a wear on a barrel.
Alpha brass is a dasher. But some say it is not truly a lapua quality. Will see.

 

[HDJM1717]

Maybe its time for a new barrel

That's what I'm thinking
I'll look into that
Thank you

 

[HDJM1717]

Get a Chrono before anything else

Okay
Thank you

 

[HDJM1717]

OP, sorry, I have to agree with @mac1911, something is off here. 175 gr SMKs measure about 1.255" base to tip. Trim length for .308 Win cases is 2.005". I just took an empty case that is longer than that (2.01") and set a 175 gr SMK on the neck (neck is already sized so the bullet's bearing surface will NOT enter the neck). This arrangement measured 3.06" cartridge base to bullet tip (so COAL) with the bullet literally falling out of the case. Using a Hornady bullet comparator for 30 cal, the CBTO for this arrangement is 2.41". There is no way to get a CBTO longer than this with 175 SMKs in .308Win. Your measurements suggest a CBTO that is roughly 1/3 of an inch longer than longest length possible to bullet tip (and almost an inch longer than the longest CBTO I could measure) without the bullet even being seated. Not clear what the issue might be but suggest remeasuring your rounds as a first step. Is it possible your calipers are not zeroed to your comparator?

11.25 twist should be fine for the 175 SMKs. A pretty standard twist for .308Win is 11.25 and even some custom rifles are built with this twist for that specific bullet.

Yes sir, I also agree with @mac1911
Thank you

 

[HDJM1717]

Thank you everyone for your concern
A friend will come over tomorrow and we'll have it sorted

 

[mac1911]

Thank you everyone for your concern
A friend will come over tomorrow and we'll have it sorted

More pictures more details
OP rough crowd here sometines on NES but I assure many want to help you just have to get past the Fun BS .

 

[paul73]

Thank you everyone for your concern
A friend will come over tomorrow and we'll have it sorted

Throw some shots of those groups. Are they stringing- horizontally or vertically- or just in random equal 2moa spread?