No carry in Police station (Never Mind)

remember these two brain surgeons? lmao...this is a classic....there are others in there that the gun owner was harassed but the Michigan guys are classic...

[video=youtube_share;vVeBN5LizZY]http://youtu.be/vVeBN5LizZY[/video]
 
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So the fundamental question I asked above has not been answered. We know signs do not carry the force of law in NH. If an employee of, say, Simon Property Group, Inc. asks a concealed carrier to leave because carry is against the policy of Simon Property Group and the carrier complies, at that moment the issue is resolved without incident. But local PDs are neither corporations nor small businesses. Just as there is no NH statute disallowing carry in a police station, there is no NH statute prohibiting police from implementing a no guns policy at a station and telling those spotted carrying who disregarded a no guns sign to leave under penalty of being cited for trespassing. I don't hold high hopes for how that would play out in court.

Uhh, Not sure if serious, but trespass standard is pretty common in a lot of states. If you hung around long enough for the cops to show up, in most cases, your arrest and prosecution would be pretty simple affair.

You're inventing an issue that doesn't really exist. I've never heard of someone in a normal state being arrested for leaving the property when asked to. This isn't even a gun thing, it's a property rights/trespass thing. The owner or their agent can tell you to leave for nearly any reason.

If you're going to stand around, get into an argument, and armflap with the property owner etc, you're probably going to get arrested, and you'll probably eat a fine for trespassing and might even get served with an order. That's the other outcome. (which I'm sure has happened to some ( BWEAH!!! IM A sovereign citizen even though im on private property!!!!!) types.

ETA: I realize you are AT the police station in this scenario, but I can't see how it would
stand. Particularly not with what ScottS just cited. There are also plenty of NH porc fest scott ridley types that have probably tested all this shit already, too. They've been pushing boundaries there for the last 10 years.

-Mike
 
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So the fundamental question I asked above has not been answered. We know signs do not carry the force of law in NH. If an employee of, say, Simon Property Group, Inc. asks a concealed carrier to leave because carry is against the policy of Simon Property Group and the carrier complies, at that moment the issue is resolved without incident. But local PDs are neither corporations nor small businesses. Just as there is no NH statute disallowing carry in a police station, there is no NH statute prohibiting police from implementing a no guns policy at a station and telling those spotted carrying who disregarded a no guns sign to leave under penalty of being cited for trespassing. I don't hold high hopes for how that would play out in court.

I'm pretty sure you're wrong there. Police stations are a part of a government entity; just as a town hall is pre-empted from posting a "no guns" sign, I believe police departments, as governement entities, are also prohitbited under the same statute.

The statute:

159:26 Firearms, Ammunition, and Knives; Authority of the State.
I. To the extent consistent with federal law, the state of New Hampshire shall have authority and jurisdiction over the sale, purchase, ownership, use, possession, transportation, licensing, permitting, taxation, or other matter pertaining to firearms, firearms components, ammunition, firearms supplies, or knives in the state. Except as otherwise specifically provided by statute, no ordinance or regulation of a political subdivision may regulate the sale, purchase, ownership, use, possession, transportation, licensing, permitting, taxation, or other matter pertaining to firearms, firearms components, ammunition, or firearms supplies in the state. Nothing in this section shall be construed as affecting a political subdivision's right to adopt zoning ordinances for the purpose of regulating firearms or knives businesses in the same manner as other businesses or to take any action allowed under RSA 207:59.
II. Upon the effective date of this section, all municipal ordinances and regulations not authorized under paragraph I relative to the sale, purchase, ownership, use, possession, transportation, licensing, permitting, taxation, or other matter pertaining to firearms, firearm components, ammunition, firearms supplies, or knives shall be null and void.
Source. 2003, 283:2. 2011, 139:1, eff. Aug. 6, 2011.
 
Consider this.
A property owner or their agent can tell you to leave. I interpret "agent" to mean someone the owner has granted the authority to tell someone to leave. In a store, for example, I would consider someone with a managers title to have that authority but not the guy sweeping the floors or collecting the shopping carts (unless he was the manager).

With a building owned by the municipality, such as the police station, that is normally open to the public, I would expect that at the very least it would have to be an Officer telling me to leave, and a policy on no guns would have to come from the city's/towns's governing body.

Of course I would still leave if told to by a non-Officer, I would just be sure to get his name and point all this out when I addressed this on an administrative or civil level.

BTW: anyone who shows up at a police station dressed all tactical with a rifle is just plain stupid. His actions convue (intentionally in my opinion) a threat even if he has no intention of doing anything. He's intentionally giving an appearance of one thing when he intents another, and he knows it. People talk about the intention of the 2a at the time it was written. If there were police stations back then and someone did this they would have shot him and no one would have thought twice about it.
 
Consider this.
A property owner or their agent can tell you to leave. I interpret "agent" to mean someone the owner has granted the authority to tell someone to leave. In a store, for example, I would consider someone with a managers title to have that authority but not the guy sweeping the floors or collecting the shopping carts (unless he was the manager).

You can have fun with that, I'm getting the **** out if an employee tells me to leave. Why would I waste my time at a place that doesn't want my business, getting into an argument with a clerk that doesn't matter? At that point I should be getting paid for that shit, lol. For all you know the manager has already called the kopsch on you; then because they called first, you are, by default, the problem. Then again the whole thing is moot because I conceal most of the time.

-Mike
 
So the fundamental question I asked above has not been answered. We know signs do not carry the force of law in NH. If an employee of, say, Simon Property Group, Inc. asks a concealed carrier to leave because carry is against the policy of Simon Property Group and the carrier complies, at that moment the issue is resolved without incident. But local PDs are neither corporations nor small businesses. Just as there is no NH statute disallowing carry in a police station, there is no NH statute prohibiting police from implementing a no guns policy at a station and telling those spotted carrying who disregarded a no guns sign to leave under penalty of being cited for trespassing. I don't hold high hopes for how that would play out in court.

The answer is in the law itself as ScottS pointed out. The local police are a "political subdivision." Therefore RSA 159:26 prohibits the police from banning carry of firearms in the police station. Last I checked, no town or city has a police station inside a courthouse either so if a police department has placed one of these signs up, they are in direct violation of the RSA. And considering how short and easy to read NH gun laws are, IMO any police department that does put up a sign is willfully and purposely violating the law.
 
You can have fun with that, I'm getting the **** out if an employee tells me to leave. Why would I waste my time at a place that doesn't want my business, getting into an argument with a clerk that doesn't matter? At that point I should be getting paid for that shit, lol. For all you know the manager has already called the kopsch on you; then because they called first, you are, by default, the problem. Then again the whole thing is moot because I conceal most of the time.

-Mike

^This
 
You're inventing an issue that doesn't really exist. I've never heard of someone in a normal state being arrested for leaving the property when asked to. This isn't even a gun thing, it's a property rights/trespass thing. The owner or their agent can tell you to leave for nearly any reason.

You haven't? Dave Ridley was right here in NH. And it was all on video, and he wasn't even asked by someone with authority. None of that stopped his persecution. Fortunately he won at trial.

If you're going to stand around, get into an argument, and armflap with the property owner etc, you're probably going to get arrested, and you'll probably eat a fine for trespassing and might even get served with an order. That's the other outcome. (which I'm sure has happened to some ( BWEAH!!! IM A sovereign citizen even though im on private property!!!!!) types.

ETA: I realize you are AT the police station in this scenario, but I can't see how it would
stand. Particularly not with what ScottS just cited. There are also plenty of NH porc fest scott ridley types that have probably tested all this shit already, too. They've been pushing boundaries there for the last 10 years.

-Mike

Funny. I didn't even finish reading your post. Quite coincidental you mention Ridley!

But yes, that it is a public building is absolutely relevant and completely different than private property. You really don't have an issue with cops trespassing people from a place they have a legal right to be just because the cops don't like them?


And cops most certainly will do that.
 
You can have fun with that, I'm getting the **** out if an employee tells me to leave. Why would I waste my time at a place that doesn't want my business, getting into an argument with a clerk that doesn't matter? At that point I should be getting paid for that shit, lol. For all you know the manager has already called the kopsch on you; then because they called first, you are, by default, the problem. Then again the whole thing is moot because I conceal most of the time.

-Mike

It was an example, not an actual situation. But if you want to add some phony details to it lets say a cashier rings through you credit card for a bunch of stuff you didn't buy (small and expensive like jewelry). Because you're in a hurry you don't notice till you get you receipt. You tell the cashier and he/she denies doing it (and knows full well there is no video). You ask to speak to a manager and he/she tells you to get out.

If you leave there will be no way to prove anything. You can't even get it back from the credit card company because you signed it. You're screwed. The store has no more reason to believe you than they do their employee. They know you're already lost as a customer either way and admitting an employee stole looks bad bad in the press. (stores lose more out the back door than the front and cover it up all the time).

Frankly I don't think you would just walk out. Broad sweeping statements are rarely correct.

I offered my working definition of "agent". I doubt there will ever be a situation for anyone where a clerk just randomly walks up to a customer and says "get out". But sure, if that happens, leave. But again I don't think that is ever going to happen to anyone.
 
The answer is in the law itself as ScottS pointed out. The local police are a "political subdivision." Therefore RSA 159:26 prohibits the police from banning carry of firearms in the police station. Last I checked, no town or city has a police station inside a courthouse either so if a police department has placed one of these signs up, they are in direct violation of the RSA. And considering how short and easy to read NH gun laws are, IMO any police department that does put up a sign is willfully and purposely violating the law.

Sadly courts don't agree. See Plymouth State, for example. Probably UNH too I'd imagine. But I do agree with you, not our corrupt courts.
 
Sadly courts don't agree. See Plymouth State, for example. Probably UNH too I'd imagine. But I do agree with you, not our corrupt courts.

State Universities have never been considered "political subdivisons" of the state. There's nothing new there, and they don't compare to actual political entities, like police stations.
 
Sadly courts don't agree. See Plymouth State, for example. Probably UNH too I'd imagine. But I do agree with you, not our corrupt courts.

That is because universities were able to use the intersection of federal law to muddy the waters enough so that they could get a judge to twist the law for their own benefit on this issue.

Ironically, they argued the opposite when it came to a case regarding funding.
 
If I have a MA DL and LTC but live in NH, can I get a NH resident LTC so long is I can provide my mortgage statement, utility bills, and taxes to show I live there? I’ve fought long and hard to get a unrestricted LTC out of Boston and I am not going to let it go and pay $500 every 5 years for a MA non-resident. Anyone been in a similar situation?
 
That is because universities were able to use the intersection of federal law to muddy the waters enough so that they could get a judge to twist the law for their own benefit on this issue. Ironically, they argued the opposite when it came to a case regarding funding.

This needs to be pointed out more often. They have double standards on funding, abortion, and many other things.
 
If I have a MA DL and LTC but live in NH, can I get a NH resident LTC so long is I can provide my mortgage statement, utility bills, and taxes to show I live there? I’ve fought long and hard to get a unrestricted LTC out of Boston and I am not going to let it go and pay $500 every 5 years for a MA non-resident. Anyone been in a similar situation?

This post is a little confusing.

You don't really need an "NH resident LTC" (although it was never called that, its a Pistol and Revolver license) for much of anything anymore, NH is permit less carry now, unless you're riding an ATV or you need the reciprocity for whatever reason.

If you have an MA address you can use for residency on that end theres no reason to give up your MA LTC.

-Mike
 
I comcealed carry in my sheriff's department every time I go there. They issue the permits, why would they preclude those same people from carrying in their building? Open carry is also legal and not a word is said.
 
This post is a little confusing.

You don't really need an "NH resident LTC" (although it was never called that, its a Pistol and Revolver license) for much of anything anymore, NH is permit less carry now, unless you're riding an ATV or you need the reciprocity for whatever reason.

If you have an MA address you can use for residency on that end theres no reason to give up your MA LTC.

-Mike
True, you don’t need the NH Pistol and Revolver License for much of anything anymore although it does provide some reciprocity. I’m thinking down the road if things ever changed I’d rather be in a position where I could be grandfathered in. I was just curious if I could have my cake and eat it too by keeping MA residency on one end and claiming NH residency for Pistol licensing purposes on the other.
 
I comcealed carry in my sheriff's department every time I go there. They issue the permits, why would they preclude those same people from carrying in their building? Open carry is also legal and not a word is said.
Are you referring to carrying inside the detention facility? Where I worked you couldn’t carry inside the units or past the lobby or sally port for that matter. Besides, there were some folk I wouldn’t want carrying because they’d be stripped of their weapon in heartbeat. Ever seen some sloppy soft target LEOs, male or female, that you look at and think how easy they could be disarmed? Their weapon would be safer at home.
 
Where I worked you couldn’t carry inside the units or past the lobby or sally port for that matter.
Standard practice, but not an area enumerated by law as a no carry zone. The photo/print area in the PD in my previous town was next to the part with the cells, and there were a set of lockboxes for officers to store their weapon before going into that area.
 
I may not be remembering correctly, but I think Manchester PD had a no firearms sign near their lobby entrance.
put up an informational sign that theirs has no weight of law.
Pro tip - less is more:
The "informational sign" should be a Brother P-Touch label saying merely:
Peel, paste, punt.

If anyone ever gets jacked up for carrying in the lobby,
odds are good that the arresting officer
will blindly copy the cite onto the arrest paperwork.

When the defense attorney looks up the cite,
hilarity will ensue.
=====
Inspiration: perhaps my favorite sign in all of New Hampshire:
Franconia Notch State Park sign.jpg

NH RSA 219:7

TITLE XIX
PUBLIC RECREATION​

CHAPTER 219
PURCHASING AUTHORITY; EXPENSES​

State Reservations and Nursery​

Section 219:7​

219:7 Repealed by 1983, 422:17, IV, eff. June 24, 1983. –
 
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Pro tip - less is more:
The "informational sign" should be a Brother P-Touch label saying merely:
Per RSA 159:26​
Peel, paste, punt.

If anyone ever gets jacked up for carrying in the lobby,
odds are good that the arresting officer
will blindly copy the cite onto the arrest paperwork.

When the defense attorney looks up the cite,
hilarity will ensue.
=====
Inspiration: perhaps my favorite sign in all of New Hampshire:
Franconia Notch State Park sign.jpg

Hint.
Must have been a transplanted Mass-hole that came up with that sign.
 
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