.22LR for training vs .223/5.56

[mtsfitness]

Starting to get into long guns and I was wondering what peoples opinions were in regard to training with .22LR? Obviously the low cost of ammo is what appeals to me, but is there much carryover between training with a .22 AR, such as a 15-22, to a 223/556 AR?

Thanks

 

[Greg Derr]

If you want to train trigger control, rifle position, gun handling, mag change there is no difference between the two.

 

[mclina]

Yeah, it mostly works exactly the same way. Differences are that the bolt catch doesn't work with the .22LR conversion kit (at least not with mine), there's much less noise, and your sights will be a little bit off at close range and quite a bit off at longer ranges. For 50 yards, plinking steel, I don't bother adjusting my sights. For 100 yard target shooting, you will need to make adjustments and keep track of which zero you are using.

 

[northny]

I built a dedicated .22RF AR. Standard lower, with dedicated .22 RF barrel with .22 RF bolt adapter, which has a Redi-mag adapter that uses M&P 15-22 mags. The bolt catch works, holds open on last shot, and the forward assist works. So everything is set up like an AR. (and while I never used the forward assist on 5.56, it is very useful to get a .22RF round seated if the bolt doesn't quite go all the way forward which is sign it is time to clean / lube or try a different brand ammo)

I shoot it a lot, and I use it in Appleseed type training, where there is a time limit, and wasting time on mag changes is bad.

To answer your question, I have found that all the work with the .22RF at 25 yards (three position, timed shooting for accuracy, speed of mag changes) all translated to the ar - 15 at longer distances. Releasing empty mag, inserting full mag, releasing bolt catch, putting on/ off safety all became "no look" automatic actions. So for me, it all translated. Plus I tend to shoot the .22RF a LOT more.

 

[Freddy B]

A factor for me in making the same decision is that rimfire rifle shooting is permitted in the pistol ranges at my club, while center fire must use the high power range.

 

[SubieGuy4]

Starting to get into long guns and I was wondering what peoples opinions were in regard to training with .22LR? Obviously the low cost of ammo is what appeals to me, but is there much carryover between training with a .22 AR, such as a 15-22, to a 223/556 AR?

Thanks

If you're doing static shooting from the line, I think it's an effective training tool. .22LR can train you to be better with trigger work and weapon handling.

If you're doing more dynamic shooting (which in my opinion is the ONLY point of shooting an AR) then I don't think .22LR is a good training alternative. I have a .22LR conversion bolt for my AR and it's pointless for dynamic training. The most challenging part of shooting an AR fast is managing the recoil and blast. People can say it doesn't recoil all they want, but shoot a fast drill with a 5.56 AR and then a .22LR AR and tell me your accuracy isn't 10x better with the .22. I don't find .22 ARs to be helpful for training. They're good for teaching a younger, newer, or more timid shooter. That's about it.

 

[Supermoto]

If you're doing static shooting from the line, I think it's an effective training tool. .22LR can train you to be better with trigger work and weapon handling.

If you're doing more dynamic shooting (which in my opinion is the ONLY point of shooting an AR) then I don't think .22LR is a good training alternative. I have a .22LR conversion bolt for my AR and it's pointless for dynamic training. The most challenging part of shooting an AR fast is managing the recoil and blast. People can say it doesn't recoil all they want, but shoot a fast drill with a 5.56 AR and then a .22LR AR and tell me your accuracy isn't 10x better with the .22. I don't find .22 ARs to be helpful for training. They're good for teaching a younger, newer, or more timid shooter. That's about it.

I don't find my accuracy changes at all between 22 and 223. Recoil is not enough to make my splits any faster and blast has no effect on follow up shots unless you are shooting roll over prone.

 

[dhuze]

Shooting is shooting and correct position and follow through does the same thing no matter what you are shooting. It's particularly helpful if you can use a similar gun. For instance I have a dedicated .22 upper for my competition AR-15 so I can shoot indoors if I want to and everything is still the same weight.

 

[newportri]

If you can find .22lr ammo it can be a good training tool as others here have mentioned, but it also depends a little on the type of shooting you do as well. If you shoot USPSA/IDPA then using a .22lr can be a good tool to work on target transitions

 

[mac1911]

I like to shoot 22lr.
I have a 22lr AR upper and it's actually more accurate than my base A2 with m193/855
I recently dusted off several of my 22s and really enjoy shooting my old bolt action 513 at 200 yards with match aperture sights. I do believe it helps with marksmanship.
I for one am not so sure that the recoil will be much of a issue except for some of the fastest shooters out there?
Maybe I'm wrong... I know when I shoot my AR carbine with the brake that is on it it's a distraction. I just don't like the noise and im sure I must be feeling part of the shock wave. It's just not fun.
I have come to like a plain target crown on my ARs.... to load to old I guess.

 

[dcmdon]

As others have said, recoil is so light with a .223, especially with a good brake, that there really isn't much difference.

I own a full .22 LR CMMG as well as a S&W M&P 15/22. The CMMG is nice, but its not as reliable as the S&W.

Overall, I prefer the S&W. Its the only non-real AR that uses real AR fire control parts. (unlike colt, ruger, mossberg)

Its also accurate enough with CCI SV to practice fundamentals with . Although I prefer one of my 10/22s for pure marksmanship practice.

Don

 

[Ranger007]

Pondering a trainer bolt action.

 

[Tackdriver VillenTactical]

I like the AR 22s for indoor ranges in the cold weather where you can’t shoot rifles or pistol caliber carbines. It isn’t exactly like a 223, but does work for a lot of drills.

Dave

 

[Len-2A Training]

Starting to get into long guns and I was wondering what peoples opinions were in regard to training with .22LR? Obviously the low cost of ammo is what appeals to me, but is there much carryover between training with a .22 AR, such as a 15-22, to a 223/556 AR?

Thanks

The S&W 15-22 is a lightweight gun, so similar but not the best trainer for the AR.

Bushmaster actually made a dedicated .22LR version of the AR-15, using a real AR lower (still marked .223). The bolt and buffer spring are different but it is very similar in weight and all the controls work the same. They only built them for 2 years (info direct from Bushmaster). I own one and have it for sale before I leave the state in a few months.

Turns out it was mfd specifically for the purpose of helping shooters that enter serious competitions with the AR, so they could practice more cheaply.

 

[mac1911]

.22 Uppers

depnding on your "training" and end use you can build or buy some very nice AR 22lr uppers
This would be very good for service rifle and easy enough to do rapid mag changes.

i really like my Tactical Solutions AR22 upper.
over all I still like shooting prone with irons at 200 yards with the 72 year old 513t US property trainer.

 

[xtry51]

I have a CMMG conversion kit and a MP15-22. The 15-22 is great for kids to learn on and a great squirrel/varmint gun. If you want to train on your real gun get the CMMG kit and a bunch of spare mags. Using your gun and feeling the weight makes the training better IMO over trying to clone a MP15-22 to be like your real gun. Plus you can move the CMMG kit to any AR in under a minute.

 

[dcmdon]

I own a CMMG dedicated .22 gun as well as a M&P15/22.
The CMMG is a real AR. It has a standard lower and upper. The barrel is not drilled for a gas port and a dummy gas block is clamped to the barrel. The barrel's twist is I believe, 1:12, ideal for .22 LR and more accurate than a 1:7 or 1:9 typical of standard AR barrels. The buffer tube is a solid piece of plastic, but other than that its a "real" AR.

The M&P 15/22 is the best of the dedicated AR style .22s. It works EXACTLY like a real AR and even can use AR fire control parts. I have a Rock River Arms match trigger in mine.

Pluses and minuses of each?

1) The CMMG has the heft and balance of a real AR.
2) The CMMG costs a fair bit more.
3) The S&W is much more reliable.
4) Both will fire out of battery, which is a nuisance really as long as you are wearing glasses.
5) the S&W is more accurate - I was actually able to make Rifleman at an Appleseed using one and the stock sights.


If I had to buy just one, I'd get the S&W. It functions exactly like a real and is more reliable and accurate.

Don

 

[DW357]

I've got a Nordic Components 22lr upper and that thing is super nice. It feels just like my 223 upper.

 

[DW357]

The only downside to the bolt conversion kits is that you tend to end up with a plugged/fouled gas tube........

Either dedicate an upper to this use case and get a spare gas tube/tools to replace (eventually) OR make sure you run a number of rounds of actual 223/556 through the gun at the end of your 22lr session in an attempt to keep the gas tube clear

This is one of the reasons why I went with a dedicated upper.

 

[mac1911]

Most folks dont realize how freakin' dirty 22lr is.....some of the copper jacketed stuff yields better/less problematic results but......

The AR pukes on itself to run the gas system. I don’t think 2k rounds of 22lr is anymore dirty than. 2k 223/556

 

[mac1911]

sure it is......you get tons more fouling/lead in barrel for one. because most 22 is not jacketed

I dont think you will find any actual jacketed 22lr
Also when you put the wrong size bullet down a bore your going to have some sort of problems.

 

[AHM]

I built a dedicated .22RF AR. Standard lower, with dedicated .22 RF barrel with .22 RF bolt adapter, which has a Redi-mag adapter that uses M&P 15-22 mags. The bolt catch works, holds open on last shot, and the forward assist works. So everything is set up like an AR. (and while I never used the forward assist on 5.56, it is very useful to get a .22RF round seated if the bolt doesn't quite go all the way forward which is sign it is time to clean / lube or try a different brand ammo)

(While I've never seen the innards on such a gun),
what are the odds that hitting the forward assist on .22LR
will fire it if there's dirt around the chamber -
it is more likely than if the bolt had chambered the round
and gone in to battery under the pressure of the recoil spring?

I've never had to assist my AR's BCG in real life.
But I'd never considered that there was enhanced risk of an A/D
when "assisting" centerfire ammo compared to operating any other control
(besides the trigger). I'm not so sure I'd trust rimfire ammo exactly as much).

Comments solicited, FWIW.

 

[mac1911]

(While I've never seen the innards on such a gun),
what are the odds that hitting the forward assist on .22LR
will fire it if there's dirt around the chamber -
it is more likely than if the bolt had chambered the round
and gone in to battery under the pressure of the recoil spring?

I've never had to assist my AR's BCG in real life.
But I'd never considered that there was enhanced risk of an A/D
when "assisting" centerfire ammo compared to operating any other control
(besides the trigger). I'm not so sure I'd trust rimfire ammo exactly as much).

Comments solicited, FWIW.

fWIW appleseed banned the SW MP22 for that reason. Seems to have some OOB issues.

 

[northny]

fWIW appleseed banned the SW MP22 for that reason. Seems to have some OOB issues.

But only the SW MP22 is banned. You can (and I have) shot Appleseed with .22 upper on standard AR lower.

 

[mac1911]

But only the SW MP22 is banned. You can (and I have) shot Appleseed with .22 upper on standard AR lower.

Someday i will get to a appleseed. I will shoot my old gelnfield 25 or maybe the erma werkes M1 carbine 22lr

 

[xtry51]

If you shoot enough .22lr to plug an AR tube, you should probably take the 60 seconds to just remove and clean it once in a while.

Leading the barrel is not an issue. Just clean your gun.

 

[AHM]

fWIW appleseed banned the SW MP22 for that reason. Seems to have some OOB issues.

I'd heard about that (and that the ban remains).

To be clear, I was wondering about the forward assist acting as a "second trigger"
when seating a rimfire round in a severely fouled receiver.

I wasn't thinking of it being OOB fire per-se.
Although with enough crud I guess it could go off OOB,
instead of in-battery but when you aren't expecting a bang to come out of the muzzle.

 

[mac1911]

I'd heard about that (and that the ban remains).

To be clear, I was wondering about the forward assist acting as a "second trigger"
when seating a rimfire round in a severely fouled receiver.

I wasn't thinking of it being OOB fire per-se.
Although with enough crud I guess it could go off OOB,
instead of in-battery but when you aren't expecting a bang to come out of the muzzle.

If its going to go bang by use of the FA its most likely going to be a OOB.
FWIW I had a old Ted Williams sears 22lr I think it was a winchester clone. The extractor siezed and would set off the round OOB .

 

[mac1911]

The only downside to the bolt conversion kits is that you tend to end up with a plugged/fouled gas tube........

Either dedicate an upper to this use case and get a spare gas tube/tools to replace (eventually) OR make sure you run a number of rounds of actual 223/556 through the gun at the end of your 22lr session in an attempt to keep the gas tube clear

I have not seen a plugged tube yet.
I put 2300 rounds through my stage with a CMMG kit when I first seen the kits.
The only issue I had was a ring of crud built up where the chamber adapter ended. Chamber crud is more of a problem than lead in the bore or gas chamber/tube
Same with shooting cast in the SKS/Garand/M1a proper size bullet and lube and leading is not a issue

 

[slap shot]

(While I've never seen the innards on such a gun),
what are the odds that hitting the forward assist on .22LR
will fire it if there's dirt around the chamber -
it is more likely than if the bolt had chambered the round
and gone in to battery under the pressure of the recoil spring?

I've never had to assist my AR's BCG in real life.
But I'd never considered that there was enhanced risk of an A/D
when "assisting" centerfire ammo compared to operating any other control
(besides the trigger). I'm not so sure I'd trust rimfire ammo exactly as much).

Comments solicited, FWIW.

It's funny, my Chiappa m4 22lr upper has a faux forward assist. It does move but isnt connected to anything. I never thought about the possibility of the FA striking the rim and firing it. I don't think it can reach in normal operation. Anyway, the upper runs great and charges and operates like an AR so definitely a useful tool. I love 22 anyway and have a bunch, this is just 1 more.