.223 Winchester Bullet fail with military brass

[mthaynes]

Hi All, here are my details,

Bullets - Winchester 64g PP bullets, part number WB223PP64
Brass - Mostly lake city, but some Remington and other randoms
Press - Dillon 550.
Manuals – Hornady and Speer. Tend to like the Speer better

When loading the Winchester bullets they are falling into the brass after being pressed. I never get to the 4 position on turret. This all happens at position 3.

Hornady is based on a COAL of 2.2. Speer is 2.22. My press is currently produces rounds at a COAL of 2.217-2.219. Checked the bullet and the base is 2.24 as one would expect but, seems to taper very quickly to 2.23, hence the bullet falling into the brass. I have about 500 of these bullets so I don’t want to toss them, but the squib risk I feel is high on these am not getting that warm and fuzzy feeling.

Anyone seen this before? The only thing I can think of is I did come across some Winchester brass that strangely was short by about a 1/32 based on my Dillon case gauge, so I tossed it. This might be able to hold the bullet, but not sure the Dillon would size it correctly since its short in the case gauge. Any clues?

Or does someone what to buy about 450 Winchester bullets

No issues loading Sierra or Hornady bullets BTW.

 

[highlander]

try loading a round without the expander ball in the sizing die. Come to think of it check the size of the expander ball itself. Might be oversized. What make are the dies?

 

[greencobra]

Did u measure the diameter of the bullets?

 

[greencobra]

And what is the ID of the expanded neck?

 

[01bmf]

Over crimping?

 

[highscore]

I have some of these bullets and agree with your diameters. I load my mag length bullets to 2.240 which is a bit short according to standard. You are loading even shorter so that might be your problem seeing that there isn't much land on the bullets, you may be seating them past the .224 diameter. Try loading them to the max length you can fit in the mag, which should be about 2.260. You shouldn't be belling the case in the powder operation hardly at all with a jacketed bullet, just enough for the bullet to nest in the case so it will stay there until it is seated. Since you have loaded other bullets without problem, I'd say the dies are OK. If this works for you, I'd put a very slight crimp on them although .223 really shouldn't need a crimp. When I load single stage I don't crimp but do crimp slightly in the Dillon.

 

[Fixxah]

Got pics?

 

[TZCHRIS]

I was holding my reloads to 2.24 +/-.005 and was pretty anal about it, until I measured off the shelf ammo, I still try to hold tight tolerances but I wouldn't hesitate to use 2.230. My off the shelf Rem .223 ammo is all 2.230 +/- .010 and shoots fine in my AR. If you are loading on the high side on the powder then you could have some issues, I load to the middle of the recommended numbers so I don't worry too much about a few rounds that are not perfect and I keep them separate from my bulk loads.

 

[mthaynes]

I have some of these bullets and agree with your diameters. I load my mag length bullets to 2.240 which is a bit short according to standard. You are loading even shorter so that might be your problem seeing that there isn't much land on the bullets, you may be seating them past the .224 diameter. Try loading them to the max length you can fit in the mag, which should be about 2.260. You shouldn't be belling the case in the powder operation hardly at all with a jacketed bullet, just enough for the bullet to nest in the case so it will stay there until it is seated. Since you have loaded other bullets without problem, I'd say the dies are OK. If this works for you, I'd put a very slight crimp on them although .223 really shouldn't need a crimp. When I load single stage I don't crimp but do crimp slightly in the Dillon.

All the dies are Dillon
I have loaded Sierra and Hornady bullets without an issue. My loading manuals specify the following lengths.
Hornady – 2.2
Speer 2.22
Lyman – 2.24
Sierra – 2.25
Since I then to use Speer as my reference I was shooting (no pun intended) for a OAL of close to 2.22. After looking at the Lyman and Sierra manuals, I think I am going to try some fit tests (no primer or powder) at a OAL of 2.245 and see how they feel.
I do use a slight crimp as it is recommended for the Dillon system and is actually the purpose of the 4 station on the turret. In my initial results I never got to the crimp stage

Thanks for all the help guys.

 

[mthaynes]

Hi Mark!

JD come shooting on Wednesday. Actually stop by and load some of these rounds for me. We will let you shoot even though you drive a chick car

 

[highscore]

I was holding my reloads to 2.24 +/-.005 and was pretty anal about it, until I measured off the shelf ammo, I still try to hold tight tolerances but I wouldn't hesitate to use 2.230. My off the shelf Rem .223 ammo is all 2.230 +/- .010 and shoots fine in my AR. If you are loading on the high side on the powder then you could have some issues, I load to the middle of the recommended numbers so I don't worry too much about a few rounds that are not perfect and I keep them separate from my bulk loads.

You should continue to be anal with your reloading, If you don't.... Anyway, the bullets in question have a very small amount of bearing surface (land or whatever you want to call it) and seating them too deep could push the land deeper into the neck and past the point where the brass will grip the bullet. Seating them longer may help. All the quality bullets I load are longer and do not have this problem.

As far as OAL in factory rounds goes, all bullets have variation in them. Even expensive bullets have variation. I tested some first run Palma bullets a few years back that were the first ones out of new dies and even they had variation. Where the seater makes contact with the bullet adds to the COAL variation. Unless your loading for real precision, it usually doesn't matter.