21 killed, 18 injured in shooting at elementary school in Uvalde, Texas

amb

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I know some teachers carry unlawfully. They know it too. It’d be great if they didn’t have to worry about GFZ.
The whole Mass GFZ thing has a solid carve-out for anyone with "the written authorization of the board or officer in charge of the elementary or secondary school, college or university". Has anyone there ever asked?

My experience with a couple of Massachusetts universities is that there is a clear and well-worn path to get that authorization. Might not be featured on the web site, but ask the right person and they whip out the form without blinking. (It's still the very essence of "may issue", but I guess I'm a good stand-up philosopher.) Universities are very very different from public schools, but still I wonder if they'd be more tractable right now if someone asked.
 

Picton

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The whole Mass GFZ thing has a solid carve-out for anyone with "the written authorization of the board or officer in charge of the elementary or secondary school, college or university". Has anyone there ever asked?

My experience with a couple of Massachusetts universities is that there is a clear and well-worn path to get that authorization. Might not be featured on the web site, but ask the right person and they whip out the form without blinking. (It's still the very essence of "may issue", but I guess I'm a good stand-up philosopher.) Universities are very very different from public schools, but still I wonder if they'd be more tractable right now if someone asked.

I've always been more of a DADT kind of guy...

In the public high schools, I've had good administrators, bad administrators, and average administrators, and I can't think of a single one who'd stick their neck out far enough to put permission to carry in writing. I can also imagine blowback simply from asking.

It's a delicate issue. It shouldn't be, but it is.
 

safetyfirst2125

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I've always been more of a DADT kind of guy...

In the public high schools, I've had good administrators, bad administrators, and average administrators, and I can't think of a single one who'd stick their neck out far enough to put permission to carry in writing. I can also imagine blowback simply from asking.

It's a delicate issue. It shouldn't be, but it is.
Most of the teachers I’ve met in MA are die hard lib moonbats who would have a screeching meltdown at the idea of teachers carrying guns. Can’t see that happening
 

Picton

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Most of the teachers I’ve met in MA are die hard lib moonbats who would have a screeching meltdown at the idea of teachers carrying guns. Can’t see that happening

Sure, but be fair: I've met a lot more than you have. And I've explicitly discussed carrying in school with many of those.

School shootings are a topic teachers talk about A LOT.
 

safetyfirst2125

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Sure, but be fair: I've met a lot more than you have. And I've explicitly discussed carrying in school with many of those.

School shootings are a topic teachers talk about A LOT.
Just saying as a stand alone solution, it wouldn’t do much good in liberal states, and with the political state of teachers nationwide, probably wouldn’t move the needle in terms of volunteers as protection or deterrent.

I’m certainly not opposed to it though and I think it would be a good additional to a more wholistic solution. I think we’d need a combination of things to move the needle. Pretty much most of the rationale ideas discussed in this thread (my North Korea solution excluded).
 

Skysoldier

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I drove by a more than a few private,church schools around Memphis, and they were always surrounded with high fences, and guard shacks at the only entrances, and they were packing sidearms.
just like the schools that Rich politicians send their kids to back east!
 

calsdad

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The founding fathers intended well-trained civilian militia to be able to use firearms that could fire one wildly inaccurate round per minute in order to defend the country from foreign invasion, because that was the available tech at the time... I doubt they intended a single teenager to be able to mow down an entire classroom of children with a weapon that can fire several rounds per second.

Every time you post something here you just make yourself sound like even more of a clown to people who actually know why the second amendment exists and also know the truth about firearms available to people at that time.

To whatever point you're trying to make by saying "wildly inaccurate" - is irrelevant, because if the militia men's *muskets* were "inaccurate" (they didn't have JUST muskets ..... dummy) .... well then so were the British soldier's muskets. Which would have meant that the American militiamen were EQUALLY armed - to those they would be fighting against.

So you're wrong on that point - whatever it is.

The second point you're attempting to use - is wrong as well. A well trained person shooting a musket - is faster by a factor of 3 - than what you are attempting to claim.

The militia did not exist initially - to "defend against foreign invasion" - it existed to defend against DOMESTIC enemies - namely the many Indian tribes and opposing military forces (the French) - who existed on the North American continent at the time the militia were formed. In other words - the militia existed to defend against ANY enemy that might arise.

Given the clear on the ground in regards to this shooting in Texas - it's pretty damn clear that if an ACTUAL militia had existed in Uvelde Texas, instead of relying on the po-po, this whole incident might have turned out quite differently. School shootings aren't really that much different in regards to the response needed to defend against them - than the types of attacks that the original militia was formed to defend against (namely Indian attacks against towns).

EVERY SINGLE TIME one of these school shootings occurs - the EXACT same arguments get trotted out by the same cast of losers : "who needs a military weapon that shoots multiple rounds per minute!!". I guess at least you haven't made the " who needs a machine gun!!" argument. But maybe I missed it. Or maybe - given the responses you've already made here which clearly indicate you don't have the slightest clue as to what you're talking about....... you don't even know the difference between what a semi-auto and a machine gun is.

Either way - it doesn't matter. Because the FACTS of the matter are - it doesn't matter if you're talking about an AR-15 in semi- auto or a Tikka semi-auto hunting rifle in .223, the rate of fire coming out of either one - in the hands of somebody who can move their finger quickly - is going to be THE SAME.

So what's your REAL argument - that we should ban semi-auto and only allow people highly accurate hunting rifles in single shot bolt action?

You DO know that WW2 was largely fought by soldiers with bolt action rifles - don't you? You do know that EVERY war prior to that - that was fought with firearms - was done so without the aid of semi-auto rifles - don't you? No? I didn't think so.

Wanna find out how many kids a school shooter can kill if you put them in a classroom with a bolt action rifle and a bunch of ammunition and 45 minutes? My guess is that it's perfectly feasible to kill 22 people in 45 minutes - with a bolt action rifle.

So once again - what is your phucking point?
 

calsdad

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There is a real solution but it wouldn’t be popular:

Any time a shooter shoots up a school

1) his entire family to two relationship hops are rounded up and held pending results of his trial if he lives and then

2) all rounded up relatives are publicly executed by a firing squad to include volunteer parents of the dead children with the shooter forced to watch (if still alive) and then

3) the shooter is executed last

Families with psychopaths would “fix them” fast themselves before they ever got near a school after a few of these events.


That might work in some cases - but in this case the shooter apparently shot his own grandmother FIRST - and didn't have the best relationship with his mother.

So who are you going to take hostage?

I'm a believer in " take the worst case scenario and work your way back from that". Which is why I have mentioned reading the book "Terror At Beslan" here in this thread a number of times. That incident was studied quite carefully by lots of people - including people over here. The Russians let Americans in to see what happened. Stuff like that is why I don't consider the Russians an existential enemy BTW. Because I remember that they did shit like that - as well as warning us about shitbags like the Tsarneav brothers. But I digress.......... Anyway - one of the lessons I remember being emphasized in the book was - there MUST be a QUICK initial response to an attack. You simply cannot let the attacker gain control of the situation. Pretty sure that's military tactics 101 ..... actually.

I'd also revert back to some basic human psychology 101 type shit - which is stuff like "even the most hardened soldier ducks when taking incoming fire". And "most people don't want to die a torturous death". There is some very basic shit that we as a society are getting very very wrong here. "Tolerance" is one thing we're getting wrong. What was it that Scrivener used to say " what you tolerate you support" - or something like that?

In this particular case I would say that this school shooting shit would change if you saw something like the following go down: School shooter invades school , police don't do anything RIGHT away. Well trained militia parents show up within 15 minutes and notice that police aren't doing anything, parents say WTF - do your damn jobs. Police tell parents to stand down or get arrested. Parents immediately shoot police - and then enter building. "Militia" parents somehow extract shooter from building alive . School shooter has unfortunately already killed some children. "Street" justice is enacted and school shooter is tortured to death in the most heinous and brutal way imaginable - and that shit is PUT ON VIDEO for distribution.

Sure - they won't show that shit on the news. But teenage school shooter types have been shown in the past to be pretty adept at trolling the depths of the internet to find content that isn't viewed by "normie" types. So once it hits the news that pissed off parents took the school shooter alive and tortured his ass to death over the shooting of their children - that shit WILL get found by the exact same types of dirtbags who might be thinking of pulling off other school shootings.

And this cannot be a one-off event. The next time there is a school shooting event - the same type of action HAS TO happen again. And again - and again, until they stop.

Look - I see turdbaskets like Ihavecovid trying to claim that we have weapons available to us that weren't available to "the militia" at the time the 2nd amendment was written. He's an idiot - and he's missing the point - but I repeat myself..... Anyway - if you look at the REAL history of that time - what you find is that when Indian tribes attacked towns and settlements and killed people - the militia first defended those settlements and THEN - they trudged off into the woods - and ATTACKED THE INDIANS.

So ...... if you're gonna execute the families of school shooters - I'd suggest you do it AFTER doing all of the stuff I mentioned above. First - defend the schools with a force that will actually CARE and actually DO SOMETHING. Next - torture the attacker so that HE suffers personally for what he did (just getting shot dead isn't enough). And lastly - if you're going to start making family members pay - then maybe give them some sort of trial - and execute them.


I do think you have something of a point about involving the family members , because the brutal truth of this is that what is going on here with a lot of these kids is that their family just throws up their hands and claims no responsibility for their demon spawn and what they do to other people. In some of the worst cases - you'll find the mothers spouting bullshit about how he was "just misunderstood" or "turning his life around". What's needed here is some sort of societal pressure to enforce discipline - coming from the family.

I think if you look back at "traditional" societies - that's where the impetus comes from for inflicting familial shame when family members do societal harm. Responsibility HAS TO start somewhere - and since families raise kids (phuck you Hillary - it's not the village) - responsibility starts with the family.
 

calsdad

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We know that BORTAC elements were there at 12:15 with a shield. Might have been those four, might not have been, but if four BORTAC guys eventually went in successfully at 12:50, then what was stopping them (or their buddies) at 12:15?

I know we don't have an answer, and might never. Because there's no acceptable answer for a forty-minute delay. No way should any of us accept that from any LE agency.

Large parts of our society suffer from a sense of urgency problem. They don't have any.

Look at the pics from this school shooting - or any other one. What you'll see is a whole bunch of "Police" walking around with rifles slung across their chest, suited up in camo and all sorts of tactical gear, boots all laced up, a helmet with night vision attachment points, 5 mags all loaded and loaded into their pockets - etc.

You know what somebody who responded properly to a school shooting in progress would look like? It would be something like this:

soldier_afghanistan_underwear2.jpg


Instead of spending all your time putting on your gear - get into the phucking fight.
 

calsdad

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Cops have a huge issue when people “do their job for them”. When they drive out to a scene and find it has already been handled by the community, they start looking for someone to charge with something. Maybe not always, but I’ve seen it enough to know it’s a thing.

I stopped on 24 one late night because a car was smoking on the side of the highway and I didn’t see anyone around. Wound up being an electrical fire under the hood and I put it out with and extinguisher. The owner was standing a bit away because she thought it was going to blow up.

A trooper pulled up and was quite angry that I had the audacity to break the law by stopping on the side of the highway lacking and emergency. Made a bunch of threats and generally gave me shit. This state would be so much better if we disbanded the state police except for the special units.


LOL.

That cop was never going to put that fire out. He would have pulled over if you hadn't gotten there first - and "called it in" and sat there and watched the car burn while waiting for a fire truck to arrive.

Think out how utterly retarded that is. First off the expense of rolling a fire truck out - and also the likelihood that the car is going to burn just that much worse while the fire gets going even more until the pumper arrives. Maybe that woman didn't have insurance . You putting the fire out maybe saves the car and it's repairable - vs - it burns so much more that it's now unrepairable and she's phucked. Maybe she's living on a shoestring and you just saved her ass from losing that car and maybe even her job because she can't afford another car.
 

calsdad

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What do people who don’t believe in evil do? They blame inanimate objects. Guns.

19 years ago, a middle-aged unemployed taxi driver carrying two milk cartons full of gasoline walked onto a South Korean subway and started a fire that killed 192 people.

That was not a milk carton problem. Nor was it a gasoline problem.

6 years ago, a Muslim terrorist drove a truck into a Bastille Day event in Nice, France killing 86 and wounding over 400 other people. Body parts were being pried out of his wheel wells.

That was not a truck problem.

Across the long stretch of human history, millions of people were killed long before the invention of firearms, in often cruder and far more brutal ways. Back then we lacked CNN, but people generally understood that this was not due to the invention of smithing, but the problem of evil.

The problem with evil is that it requires us to believe in good.

Modern people are unwilling to believe in G-d, and so they believe instead in government. And they are convinced that the god of government can fix everything if we only give it the power.

The trouble is that while people may not believe in evil, evil very much believes in them.

The gun control debate is a policy argument based on fundamental fallacies about human nature, black markets, and what a malicious mind bent on hurting people can accomplish. Conservatives argue for empowering individuals to resist mass shooters while leftists once again chant that if we locked up all the guns and gave them to the government, it would be fine.

But if guns are the problem, why aren’t there regular mass shootings in Switzerland and Finland? In Israel, a school shooting is an attack carried out by an Islamic terrorist. And that’s dismissed as a “political” act and something utterly different than an obsessive weirdo shooting up an American school because we can’t simply find the common evil denominator in both.

If guns are the problem, why weren’t there school shootings every few months during an era when guns could be bought at every hardware store and ordered through the mail?

Muggings, carjackings, and gangland shootings in Chicago are all attributed to some general social malaise that can be solved by freeing the criminals and locking up all the guns.

As if the guns have agency and the shooters do not.

Gun control hasn’t fixed any of the crime in Chicago but that’s just because, like most leftist policies, it hasn’t been implemented comprehensively enough, goes the leftist argument.

The trouble with gun control is that people do have individual agency. They choose evil.

Leftists don’t believe in either G-d or free will. And that’s understandable because the one is linked to the other. They inhabit a mechanical world in which society is real and people aren’t. Individual accountability doesn’t exist in the leftist construct of a world where people are just cogs in a machine reacting to social stimuli based on their genes and upbringing.

The central assumption of leftist thought is that if you control the society, you can also control the character and conduct of every person who has been raised in it. Every leftist policy flows from this idea. Government becomes god and can, given political omnipotence, give us utopia.

All we have to do is give up our individuality, our rights, and our faith in anything else.

That it doesn’t work is too obvious to even need saying after the rot of the Soviet Union, Cambodia, Communist China, and the lost glories of every single failed leftist experiment.

---------------------


Guns are much more real to gun controllers than human souls. But evil doesn’t require a gun. And controlling the location of inanimate objects will not fix the moral foundations of the soul.
 

VetteGirlMA

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Leftists don’t believe in either G-d or free will. And that’s understandable because the one is linked to the other. They inhabit a mechanical world in which society is real and people aren’t. Individual accountability doesn’t exist in the leftist construct of a world where people are just cogs in a machine reacting to social stimuli based on their genes and upbringing.



And controlling the location of inanimate objects will not fix the moral foundations of the soul.


I'm a card carrying atheist but I am not ignorant and stupid. I know I live in a 'mechanical world' because I do. However, people are real and society is just a concept. I believe in individual accountability whether that accountability is another person or state actors wielding state power.

The US constitution to me is supposed to be our social contract. The fundamental set of rules that we all agree to live by. The problem I see is that in the last few generations the social contract has bifurcated and now we have 2 tribes that believe in their own version of the social contract. One version, the version I accept and more closely align with is the conservative side, because I can see, read and understand the US constitution. The other social contract doesn't exist and never will. If it were ever published in full that to satisfy a mob, it would be a race to the bottom with genocide and lots of dark fantasies played out in the real world. It's one step removed from moral relativity and best described as a very dark mob rule and mobs can be extremely fickle. It's 'free Barrabas' one minute and 'kill Jesus' the next. That's why I like the wet sponge that the constitution applies to to the fickle mob.

Last sentence 100% agree.
 

SpaceCritter

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19 years ago, a middle-aged unemployed taxi driver carrying two milk cartons full of gasoline walked onto a South Korean subway and started a fire that killed 192 people.

That was not a milk carton problem. Nor was it a gasoline problem.
...nor - as I may have mentioned once or thrice before - a Korean problem:
 

safetyfirst2125

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That might work in some cases - but in this case the shooter apparently shot his own grandmother FIRST - and didn't have the best relationship with his mother.

So who are you going to take hostage?

I'm a believer in " take the worst case scenario and work your way back from that". Which is why I have mentioned reading the book "Terror At Beslan" here in this thread a number of times. That incident was studied quite carefully by lots of people - including people over here. The Russians let Americans in to see what happened. Stuff like that is why I don't consider the Russians an existential enemy BTW. Because I remember that they did shit like that - as well as warning us about shitbags like the Tsarneav brothers. But I digress.......... Anyway - one of the lessons I remember being emphasized in the book was - there MUST be a QUICK initial response to an attack. You simply cannot let the attacker gain control of the situation. Pretty sure that's military tactics 101 ..... actually.

I'd also revert back to some basic human psychology 101 type shit - which is stuff like "even the most hardened soldier ducks when taking incoming fire". And "most people don't want to die a torturous death". There is some very basic shit that we as a society are getting very very wrong here. "Tolerance" is one thing we're getting wrong. What was it that Scrivener used to say " what you tolerate you support" - or something like that?

In this particular case I would say that this school shooting shit would change if you saw something like the following go down: School shooter invades school , police don't do anything RIGHT away. Well trained militia parents show up within 15 minutes and notice that police aren't doing anything, parents say WTF - do your damn jobs. Police tell parents to stand down or get arrested. Parents immediately shoot police - and then enter building. "Militia" parents somehow extract shooter from building alive . School shooter has unfortunately already killed some children. "Street" justice is enacted and school shooter is tortured to death in the most heinous and brutal way imaginable - and that shit is PUT ON VIDEO for distribution.

Sure - they won't show that shit on the news. But teenage school shooter types have been shown in the past to be pretty adept at trolling the depths of the internet to find content that isn't viewed by "normie" types. So once it hits the news that pissed off parents took the school shooter alive and tortured his ass to death over the shooting of their children - that shit WILL get found by the exact same types of dirtbags who might be thinking of pulling off other school shootings.

And this cannot be a one-off event. The next time there is a school shooting event - the same type of action HAS TO happen again. And again - and again, until they stop.

Look - I see turdbaskets like Ihavecovid trying to claim that we have weapons available to us that weren't available to "the militia" at the time the 2nd amendment was written. He's an idiot - and he's missing the point - but I repeat myself..... Anyway - if you look at the REAL history of that time - what you find is that when Indian tribes attacked towns and settlements and killed people - the militia first defended those settlements and THEN - they trudged off into the woods - and ATTACKED THE INDIANS.

So ...... if you're gonna execute the families of school shooters - I'd suggest you do it AFTER doing all of the stuff I mentioned above. First - defend the schools with a force that will actually CARE and actually DO SOMETHING. Next - torture the attacker so that HE suffers personally for what he did (just getting shot dead isn't enough). And lastly - if you're going to start making family members pay - then maybe give them some sort of trial - and execute them.


I do think you have something of a point about involving the family members , because the brutal truth of this is that what is going on here with a lot of these kids is that their family just throws up their hands and claims no responsibility for their demon spawn and what they do to other people. In some of the worst cases - you'll find the mothers spouting bullshit about how he was "just misunderstood" or "turning his life around". What's needed here is some sort of societal pressure to enforce discipline - coming from the family.

I think if you look back at "traditional" societies - that's where the impetus comes from for inflicting familial shame when family members do societal harm. Responsibility HAS TO start somewhere - and since families raise kids (phuck you Hillary - it's not the village) - responsibility starts with the family.
Works for me. But there’s also an element of equality of justice here…a demon spawn just executed your children in cold blood…now HIS family will be executed in similar fashion in front of his eyes so he understands (and more importantly other would-be shooters watching understand) that justice will be served, served quickly and served in the same manner and with same horrific effect they wronged others families.
 

Dench

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Works for me. But there’s also an element of equality of justice here…a demon spawn just executed your children in cold blood…now HIS family will be executed in similar fashion in front of his eyes so he understands (and more importantly other would-be shooters watching understand) that justice will be served, served quickly and served in the same manner and with same horrific effect they wronged others families.

Ideas like that are what turn good places into statist hell holes, good intentions and all.

Laws like that are well into SHTF territory. Way into it.
 

Cap

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Works for me. But there’s also an element of equality of justice here…a demon spawn just executed your children in cold blood…now HIS family will be executed in similar fashion in front of his eyes so he understands (and more importantly other would-be shooters watching understand) that justice will be served, served quickly and served in the same manner and with same horrific effect they wronged others families.

1654264522590.png
 

Dench

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They're banking on that.

For sure. And people are falling for it. In a time when the government needs as little power as possible people, presumably "good guys," our peers here on NES are now demanding the government get unprecedented power to execute people simply based on genetic affiliation.

If there was a 4th Reich, that's the sort of stuff they'd be up to.

I wouldn't trust a government employee to pump gas into my f***ing car. I certainly would not give them my blessing to execute anyone. I don't give great power to entities I don't trust. Sadly, people can be tricked otherwise quite simply. Even in cases where the government is probably mostly at fault to begin with. Reichstag fire 101 right here.

People are emotional dummies.
 

bigbravehog

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Well written opinion piece




Its time to just say NO

No more stupid laws
we can say NO independently with our votes. We can also say NO with our hard earned money sent to pro 2A organizations and hope they fight these laws with lawsuits.
I pay close attention to the orgs that DO fight, and stop sending money to the ones that beg for it but do nothing.
 

MGnoob

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"In this particular case I would say that this school shooting shit would change if you saw something like the following go down: School shooter invades school , police don't do anything RIGHT away. Well trained militia parents show up within 15 minutes and notice that police aren't doing anything, parents say WTF - do your damn jobs. Police tell parents to stand down or get arrested. Parents immediately shoot police - and then enter building. "Militia" parents somehow extract shooter from building alive . School shooter has unfortunately already killed some children. "Street" justice is enacted and school shooter is tortured to death in the most heinous and brutal way imaginable - and that shit is PUT ON VIDEO for distribution.

Sure - they won't show that shit on the news. But teenage school shooter types have been shown in the past to be pretty adept at trolling the depths of the internet to find content that isn't viewed by "normie" types. So once it hits the news that pissed off parents took the school shooter alive and tortured his ass to death over the shooting of their children - that shit WILL get found by the exact same types of dirtbags who might be thinking of pulling off other school shootings.

And this cannot be a one-off event. The next time there is a school shooting event - the same type of action HAS TO happen again. And again - and again, until they stop."

You are correct, the shooters live in a sick, weird world devoid of reality where they don't consider consequences. No Fathers and a bad family situation usually. I've believed basically the same thing to stop the out of control gangbangers and hood rats. What is a ghetto N***** most prized possession after his illegal handgun? His dick! Instead of jail/prison you take a few of these murderous thugs and bring them back to their hood, tie them to a telephone pole, cut their dicks off and stuff them down their throats. They bleed out and die sucking their own dicks which would immediately make these perps think twice about attacking innocent citizens. [rockon]
 
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Lock them up like we used to in the Danvers mental institution.
So people with a mental illness through no fault of their own have no inalienable rights? How is it decided and by whom when a mental illness crosses a dangerousness threshold?

Playing devil's advocate here.
 

drgrant

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Works for me. But there’s also an element of equality of justice here…a demon spawn just executed your children in cold blood…now HIS family will be executed in similar fashion in front of his eyes so he understands (and more importantly other would-be shooters watching understand) that justice will be served, served quickly and served in the same manner and with same horrific effect they wronged others families.

Horrible logic fail here.

We’re generally talking nutbags here. Nutbags who generally don’t care about dying. Also said nutbags often resent or hate their own family so good luck with that. You might even be
helping them fulfill a sick side fantasy of their own. Not to mention theres usually a good chance of said nutbag being dead before the end of the incident anyways.

The best leverage you could ever have is promoting a protocol by where TV/Radio/etc stop pandering to these sick f***s by not making them famous.

You will notice, there is a deep correlation between a spike in these incidents and the birthing of the 24 hr news cycle. Go back into "pre columbine" era and these things were
unheard of, because MSM didnt constantly talk about them and turn these people into celebrities. Before the 24 hr news cycle in order to become famous as a shitbag, you actually
had to kill someone that people thought was "important".

Only in america can someone become a nationally famous celebrity by being a huge piece of shit mass murderer.

The goddam media has caused more of this than anything else. Additionally, in the aftermath of these incidents they will repeat lies, not correct them, and embellish the
truth to sell stories etc. Even if one can argue "the public should know" theres no standard or urgency for accuracy.

This is a fun example, people generally dont know most of the columbine myths, EG, like theres this pervasive thing that Harris and Klebold were basically just a pair of
incels. When in reality they were just angry bullies, etc.



View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EG0PtwYJU0M
 
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Dench

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So people with a mental illness through no fault of their own have no inalienable rights? How is it decided and by whom when a mental illness crosses a dangerousness threshold?

Playing devil's advocate here.

I don't think people understand what went on in those old institutions. Sure, they had niche uses but in reality they were often no more than prisons for people who hadn't committed crime and who had an extremely hard time getting out.

History has already shown that both law makers and the "experts" can't be trusted with those institutions.
 
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