21 killed, 18 injured in shooting at elementary school in Uvalde, Texas

[G4Y4HK]

1) Shouldn't be hard to keep school doors locked. This happens every day at business, buildings facilites that have alot more people using the doors on a daily basis. If teachers, janitors or the baseball coach seem to have a problem with propping doors open then they should be disciplined. We can afford it we just choose not to.

2) Where the the SRO? Is that basically a pre-retirement gig? I won't be shocked if it comes out he was at the coffee shop or napping in the parking lot.

3) Another example of someone with ZERO positive male role models in his life. His mom was a druggie and apparently grandma was an enabler. America needs to wake TF and start taking care of their families. Guy showed up to play ball with his friends all cut up in the face which was self inflicted. NOBODY he lived with noticed this or thought it worth reporting... kid should have been instituionalized.

4) Previously known to LE... shocker.

5) PD response... no shocker here either. They have no duty to protect you nor will they as has been demonstrated so often. You are the only one responsible for your loved one's safety. In my small south shore town with a dozen or so officers they all drive around in their completely blacked out cruisers, tinted windows, all the cool tactical gear and "patrol rifles" riding center console. But these guys needed to wait for the pro's to show up? Sounds to me like there is no need for all those toys because if kids getting slaughtered while you sit idly by in a hallway isn't go time wtf is?


You mention these "friends" all the time. Why in the world would you associate with people that stupid?

Aside from their political leanings, they're not malicious people. I did grow apart with another buddy who got so triggered at me I voted Trump in 2016 our ten year friendship fizzed out basically because of Trump. Oh well. In my industry, the vast majority lean left and I'm the oddball out.

 

[Picton]

1) Shouldn't be hard to keep school doors locked. This happens every day at business, buildings facilites that have alot more people using the doors on a daily basis. If teachers, janitors or the baseball coach seem to have a problem with propping doors open then they should be disciplined. We can afford it we just choose not to.

2) Where the the SRO? Is that basically a pre-retirement gig? I won't be shocked if it comes out he was at the coffee shop or napping in the parking lot.

I can only speak to 1. and 2.

I agree with you on 1, but you need to remember that people who work in schools are generally not people who have the kind of situational awareness we discuss here. In my experience, teachers tend to be pretty dedicated people who generally err on the side of generosity and kindness, especially in the lower grades. They prop doors because it's hard for them to think of a good reason why they shouldn't. I've seen the profession slowly become more security-conscious in my career, but only after tragedies. Newtown focused a lot of school people on interior security, and this might do the same for exterior security. Coaches and custodians do it because they frequently use the doors, and students do it with locker-room doors. All are undisciplined.

I've worked with enough SROs to know that it's not a good idea to generalize about SROs. I've already commented in this thread about my views on what makes a "good" SRO; it's been my luck to work with an amazing one, several okay ones, and one shitty one. Only one has been on the verge of retirement, and he's our current interim. All, including the interim, have been stable and calm and (I suppose) willing to go in after a shooter, not least because they tend to have kids in the public schools themselves.

Only one has been unprofessional, mostly because he couldn't stop himself from hitting on senior girls and younger teachers. It's important to remember that facing down school shooters is .0000000x% of an SRO's job. Mere valor and firearms competence are not most of what they do day-to-day. They need to be mature and diplomatic.

A large number of elementary schools have shared SROs. Probably most, if not all. High schools and some middle schools tend to have full-timers.

 

[Junior314]

Aside from their political leanings, they're not malicious people. I did grow apart with another buddy who got so triggered at me I voted Trump in 2016 our ten year friendship fizzed out basically because of Trump. Oh well. In my industry, the vast majority lean left and I'm the oddball out.

Going door to door with armed government agents to confiscate citizens lawfully owned property seems pretty malicious to me.

 

[weekendracer]

I understand following orders, but when the order given is based off a feeling that doesn't reflect reality or goes against SOP, the order is irrelevant and to be ignored.

That's all I'm saying, guys were probably jerking at the leash, but then you have some muckidy muck telling you to stand down. Eventually, somethings got to give.

I don't necessarily disagree. Tough scene for those three. So you call for backup, presumably. In this case backup arrived... sixteen backer-uppers. And then they all sat around in the hallway.

That's a very, very, very difficult thing to explain away.

There was also an obvious flanking opportunity through the adjoining classroom. Any LEO who had been through that school before (they do familiarization exercises) knew that classroom adjoined, and so did the principal and every staff member. 16 is plenty to breach both doors simultaneously and attack from both directions.

In fewer than 45 minutes, preferably.

Yeah, I've said it, things went off script. I don't know the layout, but the only time I was ever in a school was to see my kids and to do the drills. We never 'scouted' the schools in the area. At my first station, I never set foot in the local school as far as I know. All I'm saying is not everyone gets to walk around and plan what to do in such a crazy situation.

I was discussing Texas law earlier with a friend who retired after decades as a Texas street cop, and ultimately as director of a TX statewide agency police academy.

@weekendracer probably also knows this subtlety of Texas law, and how it's applied. Or ignored.

Under the Texas Code of Criminal Procedures, a few federal agencies are granted Peace Officer status as "special investigators". Some are only granted Peace Officer status for felonies under Texas law, and that includes ICE agents.

The law hasn't been updated since ICE and CBP were split into sister agencies, each under DHS. CBP is not a component of ICE.

The relevant Texas statute is CCP 2.122.

That's a long way around to saying that, under Texas law, the Border Patrol agents who responded, whether the tac unit or the guy getting a haircut, had exactly the same legal status to enter the school with guns, as did any other random local parent.

Pretty much everywhere, Feds are considered LEO's but not peace officers if the state has that designation. I had state powers in Maine, a few other states give it. This was a local LEO operation, they had the ball. Just glad the Tacers were there. I could stop a stolen vehicle, if someone did something criminally stupid in front of me, I could do what needed to be done for 'public safety' and hold the driver for locals to show up, I did SAR, all kinds of stuff for the locals. Basically 'public safety' carries a lot of weight to get things done.

 

[Junior314]

I can only speak to 1. and 2.

I agree with you on 1, but you need to remember that people who work in schools are generally not people who have the kind of situational awareness we discuss here. In my experience, teachers tend to be pretty dedicated people who generally err on the side of generosity and kindness, especially in the lower grades. They prop doors because it's hard for them to think of a good reason why they shouldn't. I've seen the profession slowly become more security-conscious in my career, but only after tragedies. Newtown focused a lot of school people on interior security, and this might do the same for exterior security. Coaches and custodians do it because they frequently use the doors, and students do it with locker-room doors. All are undisciplined.

I've worked with enough SROs to know that it's not a good idea to generalize about SROs. I've already commented in this thread about my views on what makes a "good" SRO; it's been my luck to work with an amazing one, several okay ones, and one shitty one. Only one has been on the verge of retirement, and he's our current interim. All, including the interim, have been stable and calm and (I suppose) willing to go in after a shooter, not least because they tend to have kids in the public schools themselves.

Only one has been unprofessional, mostly because he couldn't stop himself from hitting on senior girls and younger teachers. It's important to remember that facing down school shooters is .0000000x% of an SRO's job. Mere valor and firearms competence are not most of what they do day-to-day. They need to be mature and diplomatic.

A large number of elementary schools have shared SROs. Probably most, if not all. High schools and some middle schools tend to have full-timers.

And I understand that. But there are also alot of other workplaces/buildings/facilities where people lack situational awareness and there are plenty of products on the market to combat that. It is weaksauce IMO to blame it on stupid school staff. Train them and hold them accountable. The money is there.

As for the SRO that's fair on your part. I want to know where he was and what he was about.

 

[Buck F]

@DispositionMatrix can we please delete "Alleged" from the title?

If we can delete it from the vocabulary, even better.

Thanks.

 

[Lowbird]

 

[weekendracer]

This is not even plausible. They were receiving 911 calls from adults and children IN the affected classrooms. I've answered 911 phones. This information gets passed along to the IC. Either 911 FAILED to pass along the information OR 911 did pass along the information, but the information was not competently acted upon. Either way, this is a clusterphuck of epic proportions.

This is the DPS guy talking about the past tense, they 'thought' the shooting had stopped, he then says what happened next wasn't according to any SOP. So, I take that as a good sign overall, calling out the mistakes. It appears a lot of false information was put out early on and everyone is having to clean that mess up as well. I ran a 911 center, yes, information gets lost all the time. I had to review the tapes and figure out where the information was lost a lot of times.

 

[Picton]

And I understand that. But there are also alot of other workplaces/buildings/facilities where people lack situational awareness and there are plenty of products on the market to combat that. It is weaksauce IMO to blame it on stupid school staff. Train them and hold them accountable. The money is there.

As for the SRO that's fair on your part. I want to know where he was and what he was about.

I don't disagree, but then I don't prop doors either.

Every school is different. For example, I work in a shared middle/high school that also houses some of the district offices, though not the superintendent. So the two principals control their employees and their main entrances, but there's a shared one at the back that all kinds of staff use. Nobody "owns" that one, though after this week someone might. Worse, those district-office employees don't work for either of the two principals.

So when the shared door gets propped due to bad training or laziness, who is accountable?

It's just one situation, sure, but it goes to show that every school building grapples with different issues. None of them is insurmountable, but people need a reason to change their behaviors. "Because some yahoo might sneak in the propped door" will, one hopes, be that reason.

 

[Junior314]

I don't disagree, but then I don't prop doors either.

Every school is different. For example, I work in a shared middle/high school that also houses some of the district offices, though not the superintendent. So the two principals control their employees and their main entrances, but there's a shared one at the back that all kinds of staff use. Nobody "owns" that one, though after this week someone might. Worse, those district-office employees don't work for either of the two principals.

So when the shared door gets propped due to bad training or laziness, whose fault is it?

It's just one situation, sure, but it goes to show that every school building grapples with different issues. None of them is insurmountable, but people need a reason to change their behaviors. "Because some yahoo might sneak in the propped door" will, one hopes, be that reason.

Whomever is one video leaving it propped open. Plus there are products on the market that can close a propped open door, or signal an ear piercing alarm. Or alert someone like an SRO, security guard, janitor etc.

I'm not trying to be a dick but in a previous job physical security was a big part of what I did. Yes people are lazy, incompetent and stupid but keeping doors shut really isn't that hard when it is required and enforced.

 

[T-Unit]

That's all I'm saying, guys were probably jerking at the leash, but then you have some muckidy muck telling you to stand down. Eventually, somethings got to give.

Yeah, I've said it, things went off script. I don't know the layout, but the only time I was ever in a school was to see my kids and to do the drills. We never 'scouted' the schools in the area. At my first station, I never set foot in the local school as far as I know. All I'm saying is not everyone gets to walk around and plan what to do in such a crazy situation.

It doesn't really matter if the responding officers know the layout of the school or don't, I don't think those who were in Uvalde or Parkland or any other school shooting would have changed anything they did.

This one tho, where the officers would have been made aware that the rooms were connected, they could have come up with a plan to open one door sooner than they did.

The fact is IC declared barricaded suspect and all the cops in the hallway didn't argue it when in reality this was the easiest barricade that could have been overcome. Maybe they didn't have shields, but the dozens of cops outside who were busy tasing and abusing parents were wearing armor (generally anytime I see visible plate carriers on police it's lvl III+ or IV) so they could have grabbed something, taped the plates those cops were wearing onto the holder, and made a makeshift shield all the while they got multiple sets of keys to open doors.

They didn't do any of that, they did nothing for over an hour. NOTHING.

 

[sig shooter]

Damn right. Trump was an awful person and president.

Don’t feed the trolls guys, pay no more attention this beta.

 

[weekendracer]

ICS is just another buzzword shit show. For the most part, it only exists at the local level because they get federal funding for ICS training, and some ambitious dweeb gets promoted for implementing it.

Under ICS, the first person on scene is the IC, then that title gets passed up some random chain of command until the mobile command center arrives, and the pretty boys in starched 5.11 khakis and custom embroidered matching polos get the coffeemaker going.

Almost every time, long before it even reaches that stage, the incident is resolved while the Special Ones are still putting on their boots. In 23 years, I never saw a case where the Operators solved an active crisis. They got pulled out and suited up while it was Joe Snuffy and the unit secretary getting the bad dudes in cuffs.

I used to say Bortac was the best group of guys to show up 2 hours late for a party. Not their fault, I was pretty much dancing on the end of the world. And obviously not detracting from what they did in this incident.

 

[Miguelito]

I don't disagree, but then I don't prop doors either.

Every school is different. For example, I work in a shared middle/high school that also houses some of the district offices, though not the superintendent. So the two principals control their employees and their main entrances, but there's a shared one at the back that all kinds of staff use. Nobody "owns" that one, though after this week someone might. Worse, those district-office employees don't work for either of the two principals.

So when the shared door gets propped due to bad training or laziness, who is accountable?

It's just one situation, sure, but it goes to show that every school building grapples with different issues. None of them is insurmountable, but people need a reason to change their behaviors. "Because some yahoo might sneak in the propped door" will, one hopes, be that reason.

In all honesty I don't think teachers should need situational awareness. And locked doors being the end all be all I don't see either. My kids elementary has locked doors, which I approve if, but they also have million giant windows that I could throw a brick thru and step over the sash. So enough with the locked doors are the end all be all.

 

[weekendracer]

It doesn't really matter if the responding officers know the layout of the school or don't, I don't think those who were in Uvalde or Parkland or any other school shooting would have changed anything they did.

This one tho, where the officers would have been made aware that the rooms were connected, they could have come up with a plan to open one door sooner than they did.

The fact is IC declared barricaded suspect and all the cops in the hallway didn't argue it when in reality this was the easiest barricade that could have been overcome. Maybe they didn't have shields, but the dozens of cops outside who were busy tasing and abusing parents were wearing armor (generally anytime I see visible plate carriers on police it's lvl III+ or IV) so they could have grabbed something, taped the plates onto the holder, and made a makeshift shield all the while they got multiple sets of keys to open doors.

They didn't do any of that, they did nothing for over an hour. NOTHING.

Yeah, I don't disagree with anything here. I get holding the corridor, keeping him in there, but now more information has come out, it seems like more could have been reasonably done.

 

[kevin9]

1) Shouldn't be hard to keep school doors locked. This happens every day at business, buildings facilites that have alot more people using the doors on a daily basis. If teachers, janitors or the baseball coach seem to have a problem with propping doors open then they should be disciplined. We can afford it we just choose not to.

2) Where the the SRO? Is that basically a pre-retirement gig? I won't be shocked if it comes out he was at the coffee shop or napping in the parking lot.

3) Another example of someone with ZERO positive male role models in his life. His mom was a druggie and apparently grandma was an enabler. America needs to wake TF and start taking care of their families. Guy showed up to play ball with his friends all cut up in the face which was self inflicted. NOBODY he lived with noticed this or thought it worth reporting... kid should have been instituionalized.

4) Previously known to LE... shocker.

5) PD response... no shocker here either. They have no duty to protect you nor will they as has been demonstrated so often. You are the only one responsible for your loved one's safety. In my small south shore town with a dozen or so officers they all drive around in their completely blacked out cruisers, tinted windows, all the cool tactical gear and "patrol rifles" riding center console. But these guys needed to wait for the pro's to show up? Sounds to me like there is no need for all those toys because if kids getting slaughtered while you sit idly by in a hallway isn't go time wtf is?


You mention these "friends" all the time. Why in the world would you associate with people that stupid?

#1. Reportedly the door had been propped open by a teacher who went out to get their phone and left it open when they went back in. Not clear if this was right before, or after, the initial shots were fired outside the school and 911 calls were made. Worst case, lockdown had been declared and the teacher thought she could just run out and grab her phone. SMH

#2. Reportedly no SRO was at the school as a matter of policy and practice. Guess who made that decision (see #5). Apparently an SRO was dispatched after the first shots and/or 911 call but arrived too late

#3 Yep
#4 Yep
#5 The school system has (had?) their own police force (~6 people). Reportedly the head of that "police force" was in charge of the incident (IC) and screwed the pooch, royally. The local municipal PD don't appear to have done any better. Not until the Border Patrol TAC unit showed up did anything start happening, and even then they were kept on leash by the IC for 10s of minutes.

 

[Junior314]

In all honesty I don't think teachers should need situational awareness. And locked doors being the end all be all I don't see either. My kids elementary has locked doors, which I approve if, but they also have million giant windows that I could throw a brick thru and step over the sash. So enough with the locked doors are the end all be all.

There are solutions for that as well.

Think of "locking doors" as the stand in for not making schools easy targets.

 

[Picton]

#1. Reportedly the door had been propped open by a teacher who went out to get their phone and left it open when they went back in. Not clear if this was right before, or after, the initial shots were fired outside the school and 911 calls were made. Worst case, lockdown had been declared and the teacher thought she could just run out and grab her phone. SMH

#2. Reportedly no SRO was at the school as a matter of policy and practice. Guess who made that decision (see #5). Apparently an SRO was dispatched after the first shots and/or 911 call but arrived too late

#1 The reporting I've seen is that she's the one who made one of the 911 calls, reporting the truck crash and the shots at the funeral home. Whether she went back inside or decided to flee, she forgot to un-prop the door. I doubt she'll ever forgive herself for that, now.

#2 The SRO heard some of the initial 911 calls and did arrive "in time," but missed the shooter because the shooter was hiding behind a car. SRO went on a wild-goose-chase after someone else he saw outside, which is presumably when the perp made entry.

I'm wondering whether the person the SRO followed might have been the door-prop teacher, fleeing the gunfire from the funeral home across the street. This all seems to have happened very quickly.

 

[BigTimber]

Damn right. Trump was an awful person and president.

 

[tinhorn]

I see only three reasonable outcomes in holding the cowards who did nothing accountable.

1. They all quit/are fired and pay every dollar they ever made as a cop back.

2. They are charged with felony murder for being complicit in the murders.

3. Seppuku.

Didn't the Broward Coward get his job back with back pay?
.

 

[Picton]

Didn't the Broward Coward get his job back with back pay?
.

If it's the one I'm thinking of, he did... because his bosses didn't go through due process before they fired him.

Knee-jerk firings are satisfying to a lot of people, but if the employee is a union guy you have to go through the process. His bosses should have known that.

 

[Miguelito]

I see only three reasonable outcomes in holding the cowards who did nothing accountable.

1. They all quit/are fired and pay every dollar they ever made as a cop back.

2. They are charged with felony murder for being complicit in the murders.

3. Seppuku.

Seppuku without a second until the second cut.

 

[Waher]

View: https://mobile.twitter.com/JMichaelWaller/status/1530255247209385985?cxt=HHwWgsC-mcXCx7wqAAAA

 

[kevin9]

#1 The reporting I've seen is that she's the one who made one of the 911 calls, reporting the truck crash and the shots at the funeral home. Whether she went back inside or decided to flee, she forgot to un-prop the door. I doubt she'll ever forgive herself for that, now.

I seem to recall reading that she went back in and was one of the teachers killed, but cannot find confirmation of that

#2 The SRO heard some of the initial 911 calls and did arrive "in time," but missed the shooter because the shooter was hiding behind a car. SRO went on a wild-goose-chase after someone else he saw outside, which is presumably when the perp made entry.

Yes, you are correct. I was not exactly precise in saying he was too late.
However, the bigger question of why there was no SRO at that school to begin with is still valid, and reported on by this article. It indicates there was no SRO at the elementary school as a matter of course:

DPS: There Was No Good Guy with a Gun Patrolling Uvalde School

The proverbial "good guy with gun" had not failed; he simply not had been present in Uvalde to stop the shooter, contrary to early reports.

www.breitbart.com

Instead, on Thursday it said there were not Uvalde ISD police on campus.
...
The district’s policy is to have security staff patrol door entrances, parking lots, and the perimeters of campuses at the middle and high school, according to a document listing the school district’s security measures from the 2019-20 school year.

I'm wondering whether the person the SRO followed might have been the door-prop teacher, fleeing the gunfire from the funeral home across the street. This all seems to have happened very quickly.

I thought I read somewhere that he was distracted by the door-prop teacher causing him to not see the shooter, but again I cannot re-find the article right this second. Also, that seems slightly at odds with the idea that the door-prop teacher went back in and left the door open allowing the scum entry.

Still many details yet to be revealed.

 

[Picton]

However, the bigger question of why there was no SRO at that school to begin with is still valid, and reported on by this article. It indicates there was no SRO at the elementary school as a matter of course:

DPS: There Was No Good Guy with a Gun Patrolling Uvalde School

The proverbial "good guy with gun" had not failed; he simply not had been present in Uvalde to stop the shooter, contrary to early reports.

www.breitbart.com

Again, I know of many (almost all, if I stop to think about it) elementaries that have no full-time SRO. My own kids' school has one that they share with another school, but the other three schools in the town share another. Add one at each middle school and another (two, maybe?) at the HS and that's a significant chunk of day-shift police manpower for a typical MA town, all tied up in the schools for eight hours a day.

In my perfect world, every school has a full-time SRO. But then, in my perfect world, a lot of things are different.

 

[Miguelito]

Again, I know of many (almost all, if I stop to think about it) elementaries that have no full-time SRO. My own kids' school has one that they share with another school, but the other three schools in the town share another. Add one at each middle school and another (two, maybe?) at the HS and that's a significant chunk of day-shift police manpower for a typical MA town, all tied up in the schools for eight hours a day.

In my perfect world, every school has a full-time SRO. But then, in my perfect world, a lot of things are different.

Towns can't afford a full-time SRO in every school, certainly not around here, where cops get paid big money and get 75% or whatever pensions after 20 years.

 

[Fixxah]

Are you a cop?

 

[Fixxah]

View attachment 620569




And, I've posted this before, I firmly believe it.
Rule #1 are words to live, (or die), by.

I don't expect children to live by these rules,
but adults should. When life goes sideways, it's up to you to deal with it.

View attachment 620570

I would wap 3 and 4 personally.

 

[Fixxah]

That's what I am grappling with.

If I understood the timeline, there were nineteen officers in the hallway, standing outside of the two involved classroom/s, during which time a teacher and/or students in each of the classrooms were calling 911 to report on the state of the situation.

During a few of these calls to 911, shots from the suspect are heard occurring from with the classrooms, which leads me to believe there were a number of persons still alive inside the classrooms, all the while nineteen officers are standing in the hallway?

Seriously, that's eff'd up. I can't fathom these nineteen officers being able to sleep at night.

Maybe. But at least they went home on their feet and not in a box.

 

[radioman]

Damn right. Trump was an awful person and president.

Yea, I hated dollar fifty gas, no threat of being nuked at any moment, no new wars and deescalation of one’s already going on, no military people being brought home in body bags. Yea that guy sucked. The U.S. is much better now.