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2019 CMP M1 Garand Clinic and CMP games Schedule OCSA Pembroke , Ma. Nov 3, M1 Clinic & Modern Mil

Discussion in 'Mil Surp Collectors' started by mac1911, Feb 28, 2019.

  1. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    So I ran into one of smartest guys i know about shooting.
    He must remeber every conversation as he starts asking me all these questions about my 308 build. Thats the last time i seen him. Been a while.
    After a few minutes he says , what barrel did you go with .
    Criterion 1/10. Very good choice he says. i go on to ask about why the shift to 1/12 twist for the 155s.
    Ahh he says, now some real questions.
    See what happens is there is a thresh hold that if pass it your bullet will either self destruct or not stabilize.
    Then he goes on
    "Start with bullets. If they are not made well the faster RPMs will show up any defects in centrifugal forces applied.
    If the bullet core is not quality and the jacket not uniform and they are not put together well the faster the RPMs the more the bullet will not fly well."
    Now he says the end use is a key factor.
    "As you know from shooting all kinds of shit through your rifle from cast to light fmj's you can get good accuracy from 1/10
    1/10 covers a lot of ground because of "velocity" most folks and guns for that matter with 30 cal are going to be running between 2400-2700 fps. now get into bench rest and long range 1000 yard shooting you need velocity to hang on outto the target. Push a marginal bullet to 3000fps in a 1/10 well it might just self destruct like M193 and cheap 223 can do in a 1/7 vs 1/9"

    "We also know from testing the higher RPM equates to more damage to the target be it mammals of such intended. ( he never says humans/enemies )"
    in the end he basically says " with the common 30 cal battle rifles of 20-24" barrel your not going to get those higher velocities anyway before you get to those loads pressing the limits of your platform especially the semi autos.

    Now hes says "with out going home and getting specifics I can tell you your average 308 bullet from 150 to 175s are generally going to have a sweet spot between 145,000 rpm and 175,000 fps how you want to get there with velocity or barrel twist is what you need to figure out. "

    He says in the end "You need to run what you brung and try stuff. We had data that would say this combo will shoot and when put down range it does not"

    Muzzle velocity X 720 / twist rate in. will get you your RPM.
    for example your 155 load at 2700 fps with a 1/12 = 162,000 rpm < look at that right darn in the middle of that old mans BS words.
     
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  2. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    Damn, need to get that guy to write a book. Or maybe tape a few sessions over beers or coffee, depending on preference.

    Actually I'm a little hotter with the 155's, more like 168,000 rpm but still in that sweet spot. Might try a better projectile at that velocity too, just for grins. Anyway, a bit hotter did get them to settle down into better groups.

    My 125's were above the rpm's he recommends, but they weren't coming apart. I may need a different powder than Varget to get those to slow down a tad and still have decent case fill. Not a fan of going below minimums and also don't like a lot of unused volume in the case.

    Did some digging back a couple years and determined my '03 is more accurate with 168's. I was running light loads with 155's just to be a pussy, but maybe that was not optimum for the projectile, plus I know not optimum for Varget. A tad below minimum charge weight and might exhibit a little case fill inconsistent ignition. Been a while since I've had a decent score with the '03, though mostly it's my inconsistent shooting. 280's one match, 240's another...
     
  3. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    thats the 2 globes attached to the 6" blob inconsistency effect!

    Yes hes a smart dude. Hard to get out of him what exactly he did for a living. Some say hes was a engineer for the military. Others say he work in propulsion technology . Either way he gives you fragmented info causing you to think a bit. He never really just comes out and answers your question directly. When he brings in any sort of "data" its always on that old ass looking gear fed paper and he often has to explain exactly what your looking at.

    one time he said aint nothing really new to understand about bullets and guns they had it wrapped up about 100 years ago. just takes a little time for the material to catch up with the engineering

    looks like my 155s at 2600 with 1/10 might be running a bit to fast ? Then again he really did not say what is to fast just said "testing showed best range was "

    maybe thats why the 155s do well in my M1a as they are running right around 175k rpm

    Now I see why some long range guns are 1/12-1/14 twist. lots of those loads out of 26"+ barrels are pushing 3000fps or more to keep velocity up at distance. So basically you only need fast enough to stabilize the bullet BUT if your running 110s to fat 155s to long 175 VLDs in the same barrel/gun you need a middle ground.

    Its funny you dont see more info on bullet manufactures about twist rate up front you really have to dig for it.
    Like what did sierra do all their testing in for the MK 30 cal line of bullets?

    I know I have read that its hard to over stabilize a well made bullet. I run some 52 grainers in a 1/7 AR that shoot just fine and they are cranking at 3200fps. if I run some cheapy 55s I have they will puff at about 50 yards....poof gone!

    the only other person I talked to about over stabilized bullets said that if you spin them to fast the tips tend to yaw up even as the bullet trajectory starts its travel down. ?

    now does all this matter inside 200 yards? Probably not. Home bored and slowly drinking coffee.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2019
  4. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    I have made 55’s go POOF from a 1:7 barrel. Before I realized what was happening they were keyholing and/or going off paper at 50 yds. After a couple went bang and sprayed the target with shrapnel the light went on in my thick skull.
     
  5. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    Pits are getting closer but no pullers this week.
     
  6. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    Guess I'll have to hope for conditions that help to see where those damn holes are in the black- assuming I can hit the black.

    Might be carpooling with @76Too . Maybe I can finish sighting in on road signs while he drives.
     
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  7. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    Right now I am going to be there! Who knows what happens in the next 10 min!
    Anyway have the 155s loaded up for the 1903a3
    And a mixed bag of shit for the M1 match. Could be 155s ,168s , M2 ? Just cleaned out the ammo dump draw.
    I can see the shots in the black most days at pembeoke with my 27 LER x80 Celesteon
    If you remeber and want to check out that little $25 Celestron ask me tomorrow.
     
  8. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    Well, now I’m out. Away too long today and stuff to take care of tomorrow. I think Alan is riding with 76Too however.

    Y’all shoot straight.
     
  9. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    well I hope you snuck out this Am
    im about to tippytoe out the door before things change here!
     
  10. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    LOL I know that get out the door before something blows up routine. Kids grow up fast and before you know it you'll get through that stage.

    No chance for me to make it. Wife's company picnic ran very long yesterday and left me with no time to get some sh!t done, pushing all into today. Need to do a little work on her Rubicon and take care of some house maintenance. I will have a couple spare hours to practice awfulhand at my local club but I just don't have all day to go to Pembroke.
     
  11. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    When i l eft there where shooters still shooting.
    M1 i went in with a mixed bag of ammo, at least 3 bullet Types, 4 different primers and mystery on powder charges.
    so I was not expecting much. Shot my average for prone but tanked in off han with a 61
    03a3 shot well but light changed and 30 cal holes where hard to pick up. My sighters went low left just outside the 9 ring. Once i made some adjustments did not see any impacts in tbe white so I just let them fly. Prone hand a nice 3.5" group straddling the lower left 9 -10 ring
    Shot my mid 90s average. Off hand was better but I cross fired. All season i have been blessed with at least 1 miss in off hand each match. Messing with any good scores. 267/300
    I forgot to take some pictures of the nice rifles in tbe rack.
     
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  12. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    Sept 8th
    M1 C!inic and match
    Modern Military
     
  13. 76Too

    76Too NES Member

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    I have not one, but two decent options for MM this go around...both weighed and ready to rock. Probably using factory ammo because half my reloading bench is in IN, but will probably still do better than the time I used my AK :D
     
  14. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    Wazisit!
    I might bring 2 M1a and have personal head to head match, either way I WIN!
    FRONTLINE VIETNAM: The Marine's M14
    Came across this and still want one of the old school USMC shooting shirts and they have the oven mits!

    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhrQciStUNs
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  15. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    August 11, 2019
    Garand top 3 scores
    274/300/5
    271/300/3
    268/300/3
    I had a dismal showing with the garand.
    Had one first timer who broke into the low 200s first time out. Good work
    Springfield 1903/1903a3 top 3
    283/300/8
    273/300/2
    268/300/3
    i snuck in a 267/300/0 for 4th

     
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  16. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    Pics did not load and im not pulling them out again today?

    For next match I am bringing my 2 M1a
    GI parts kit / Rock ola and stock SAI
    Installed a NEW SAI stock on the USGI build to see if it makes weight and it does. Theres also plenty of wood to be trimmed if I need to cut weight anyway.
    Both rifles shoot well the SAI is supposed to have a NM trigger its nice but no where as nice as the trigger job from the local legend.
    I can tell you the Legends trigger is a smooth take up through the first stage to about 4lbs then a nice break just under 5lbs
    The SAI NM trigger is smooth and leaps and bounds better than any stock SAI trigger I have touched but its 3.5pbs 1st stage then what feels like a long 2.0lbs till breaks by my wheeler pull gauge.
    I will be doing my own little head to head match and using a standard load with 168 grain noslers at 2600ish fps
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2019
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  17. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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  18. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    I'm tempted to do a head to head ARbomination vs. Bula. I'd shoot the Bula first, since I tend to score higher with it. Probably will just shoot AR and M1, since I need the M1 practice before VT.
     
  19. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    BE602E6B-ECF8-442C-9E09-7082040DAC27.jpeg 182DB753-DC1E-4C03-B78F-A3BA928C0C7D.jpeg BE602E6B-ECF8-442C-9E09-7082040DAC27.jpeg 939D4D7F-93F9-4165-B886-4F65C70D18F1.jpeg Come on Down , Only 3 left
     

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  20. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    I'm definitely going. Carpool?
     
  21. 76Too

    76Too NES Member

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    Looks like my decision has been made for me because it seems I already packed/moved all my M14 magazines :/

    Only option left is my pooosay gun, but it does seem to shoot ok! I'll be dialing in elevation on the fly however, because I haven't had a chance to stretch it out to 200yds just yet.

    It's about the fugliest A2 you've ever seen, but it's 'as purchased' with zero upgrades. Bought the olympic arms true pre-ban lower here just in case I get stuck moving back here in a few years...and then saw the A2 upper go up for sale about 2 months ago and was the first to the party there. She's NO beauty queen, but she shoots ok and i guess almost more importantly, makes weight! Here's the only photo I have, but this is before I changed to a standard 'as issued' grip and took out the cleaning kit that was in the butt stock.

    IMG_3440.jpg

    Yup...right on the dot, but i bet i'm probably an ounce or two in the green now.

    We'll see how she runs!
     
  22. 76Too

    76Too NES Member

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    Sure thing! We can take the Taco if you don't mind a little dog hair on your ass.
     
  23. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    Taco's fine. I have two horse sized dogs and a wife who forgets how the vacuum works. I try to demonstrate the vacuum in action about once a week but not getting any help.

    Yeah, that might be fuglier than mine but in a less revolting way. Mine makes me throw up a little in my mouth each time I take it out of the safe. As mentioned, I'll prefer to shoot the Bula in VT but will bring the AR both as a back-up and also just to see if it passes inspection. If it doesn't, I'll make a stink because it meets the rules as they have been communicated.

    But hey, that looks like a 7.8 lbs not 7.5? 7.5 is the limit, though nobody is going to give a crap at Pembroke. Not sure what you feed that thing but if you need match ammo and packed the reloading stuff, check Gun Parlor or Pullman for Sig 77 grain SMK match. Good sh!t.
     
  24. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    Pits ready for next Sunday? Target pullers would be nice...
     
  25. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    i will text rich later. I know they range was close last week for more work.
     
  26. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    I have a few M1a mags if needed.
    If your 100 yard zero is solid with out messing with your sights you should be low in the 10 ring.
    I was going to bring the AR and I still might. Depends on how fast the relays move along. Im still debating bringing the M1 in 308 also? Might change my personal challenge from M1a vs M1a to M1a vs M1 308
     
  27. 76Too

    76Too NES Member

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    It's a postal scale...that's 7lbs 8oz or for you ignints, 7.5lbs! I was pretty excited to find the cleaning kit in the butt after I weighed it, because that very likely puts me UNDER requirement...so even if my scale is 'off' a little, I should still be OK.

    I'll be interested to see your ARbortion...i'm going to have a lot of time this winter since I don't have any friends in IN just yet, so looking at a purpose built upper (and lower since they're still $50 in America) and would like to steal some of your and Mac's successful ideas.

    Mac, though I appreciate the offer, I have yet to even sight in the purpose built (sub 9lbs) M14 with irons yet, and likely won't get out this week after work if i'm taking next sunday off from working on the house again. Maybe if i'm still around for the last MM of the season i'll have taken it out by then.
     
  28. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    LOL, 8 oz.

    Upper is really basic. Just stripped off the delta ring stuff and used a Seekins lightweight / low profile NOXs handguard and used a YHM folding front sight & gas block combo that I had. Thread protector was pinned & welded, so rather than drill that out I ground and polished the crush washer even with the barrel so that the gas blocks could slip on and off.

    I was going to use an ACE skeleton minimalist butt stock but decided to go ahead and use a M4 butt stock to appear more in the 'spirit' of the games. I already had the buffer tube and buffer. In combination I think the whole thing looks stupid.
     
  29. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    See you up there. I'll shoot the fab four as well. Hoping to try vintage sniper but might not in order to see a friend from Nashville. In case you need help finding your Garand, it's the semi without a mag. [wink]
     
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  30. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    Not knowing if we will have pit service or not, for MM I'm bringing both the Bula M14 and the AR-bomination. If no pit service, I'll shoot 30 cal so I have at least some chance of finding the holes.
     

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