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2018 / 2019 Winter Warrior Postal Match

Discussion in 'Mil Surp Collectors' started by Mountain, Sep 10, 2018.

  1. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    Ahh my type of testing, I do a lunch time dash for all my testing 40min drive time 20 min on range including set up.
    Round robin helps even out your test results if your barrel does some wondering cold/hot
    Before I started doing round robin style testing I always thought some loads where really bad. Then I finally noticed the M1 I was using had a pattern. As it warmed up it impacts would rise and cork screw to the left let it cool back to normal. Fun stuff, rush testing sucks but often it’s pretty good rapid practice.
    If I had serious range time MOA and sub MOA would be more common I think
     

  2. daekken

    daekken NES Member

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    As you mentioned, part of the reason I went for the round robins was to try to eliminate the variable of barrel, etc.

    I did notice the 150s tended to impact a bit higher and a bit more to the right than the the 168s.

    I might get to go over on lunch today, but it's 50/50 at this point. I did bring the remaining 10 of each.
    I did 44.5 Varget for the 168, and 44gr for 150 if I recall correctly.
     
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  3. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    Damn, you are getting some serious shooting in this winter! Nice work.

    Those loads are for .30-06? IMHO a bit on the light side for Varget. At least for me, if I go too light the accuracy drops significantly. I have also seen the chrony data start to vary a lot when the loads get light. I have settled on 46.5 gr for 168's and a little more for 155's. Try a little more powder and I think you will like the results.

    I should have a little more time to load and shoot after this weekend. Our 'beer league' ski racing championship races are this weekend, so that's the close for that. Thinking I'll actually go to nationals this year- that's in early April. Qualified last year but kid in hospital trumps ski trip every time. Think anyone at Wachusett would mind if I make a couple race runs with my M1 strapped to my back? Maybe I could have done it on this day: Recalling 10th Mountain Division's training days at Wachusett Mountain

    I need to see what I can do with the Hornady 150 SST's in either the PU Sniper (will cover scope) or M39. Have to load some first...
     
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  4. daekken

    daekken NES Member

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    Yes, 30-06. If I recall I just went for the "middle" load in the manual. I can do up some loads with the higher powder amount but it probably won't be in the rotation until after the match ends. Still want to know how it does so I can kind of "settle" on which projectiles work better for this rifle. I'm also curious how the CMP special will shoot them compared to the SG. I believe the service grade has a late 40s barrel, might be early 50s, I don't remember exactly. Special of course has a 2015 Criterion barrel.

    I'll need to go through and see which rifle I shot the least and get it back out; I think it's the K98 and/or Lee-Enfield. And I do want to get the M1917 out for another shot at majspud's WW1 crown (unless someone else beat it and I missed it). Going to be shooting down to the wire.

    It's strange, this morning I said to myself that I was ready for spring to get here, but considering we only have about three more weeks for the postal, it feels like it's kind of gone by fast in some regards.
     
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  5. Fritz the Cat

    Fritz the Cat NES Member

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    Great article.
    A book I have read several times is the boys of winter
    51IxegpizfL._SX331_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

    It's all about the 10th. Many of whom were from Massachusetts. I knew one of the people in the book, Frank Presjnar, who lived in Stockbridge. Great guy.
    I highly recommend this book.
     
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  6. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    Special should of course out-shoot the SG. I do think the 'light' loads of Varget might be opening up your groups.

    Before having Franco build a match rifle out of it, my latest FG was really more like a rack grade. I probably should have complained to CMP but wasn't that motivated as it was simply an organ donor. Lower band beaten up so badly it would not seat tightly to the barrel. I did tighten up the upper band, gave it a trigger job, then cleaned and lubed it for one last range trip before rebuild. IIRC shot a 97-2X with '77 HXP (the later not so good HXP). Barrel wear was 3 at the muzzle and 2 at the throat. Per Franco probably years of steel cleaning rod wear at the muzzle. Anyway, this POS could hold the black with so-so ammo. That's why I think those lighter Varget loads are not helping you with your SG.
     
  7. daekken

    daekken NES Member

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    Actually adding HXP as a control (and maybe some PPU, I have a box or two lying around somewhere in one of my ammo cans) would be cool. See how bad my reloads are compared to factory. For these targets they were both Hornady "match" 308 projectiles.

    Now I'm getting all sorts of ideas; I could try the Hornady match 168s versus the Nosler Custom Comps, although I only have a few left.

    I've never tried standardizing brass either to see if makes a difference for me. When I first started it was nearly 100% HXP cases since I was reloading the HXP I shot but over the last couple of years I've picked up so many Federal, Winchester, and other misc 30-06 brass left behind that my five coffee cans or so are just a mishmash.

    To be honest, I don't think my skills are sufficient enough to reveal any measurable difference.
     
  8. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    Another wrench in the gears, my AR and M1 criterion don’t like when I change projectile I either have to clean the barrel really well or send 10-15 rounds through before they snug up.
    As for varget it’s a strange powder, there’s definitely so accuracy node swings. Way back I experimented with varget and my best M1 at the time , it shot some impressive groups at hornady starting load but did not cycle 100% especially at a match. I ended up at 45 grains for 155s and 168s only because my powder drop would hit 45 grains consistently with a +/- of 1 grain and when I did the OCW method 44.8-45.3 grains was well with in the same poa/poi
    For the most part if you can find a load that your rifle will shoot under 3moa your about the best for a SG , even a Fulton Armory M1 garand built to pass JCG matches is only 2.5” with FGMM
    Guaranty?
    I think Franco said this to me years ago. Shoot the HXP it’s cheap until your getting all your shots in the black. Until then your wasting good bullets...which I did and when I rebarreld my M1 fitted a new stock and worked the trigger the reloading really showed its face.
    Now it’s a matter of getting my eyes/trigger finger to back up the rifle and bullets. Or getting that 3” group out of the 7ring and into the X!
     
  9. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    Keep in mind that he-who-always-kicks-our-asses-in-matches only loads LC brass, usually NM, and always keeps the lots segregated. I have one batch of mixed HXP but have reloaded it enough times it's probably ready for scrap. Otherwise I prefer to purchase and keep separate by year. I never mix commercial (Lapua & PPU) with milsurp (LC, HXP) and typically won't mix brands either.

    I think you'll gain something by keeping your brass segregated. That and upping the Varget a bit. Your loads are well below Hodgdon's recommended starting load, which is 47.0 grains for 168's. Recommended starting loads for 150's are 46.0 to 47.0, depending on the bullet.

    As far as a commercial benchmark or control group- I'd recommend either PPU or older HXP. I forget the cut off for the HXP change in brass dimensions- ~'69?
     
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  10. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    Only change in HXP brass was extractor groove AFAIK.

    He who loads the LC match brass and full power loads would do the same with my cast loads!
    From another old timer I know, “ you get so used to what you use you don’t like to change” his M1 loads would be considered HOT by today’s standards he also throws in “back then a bent op rod was just annoying and you grabbed another and slapped it on”
    Generally some where between 45-50 grains of known safe garand powders you. Find something that works.

    My thoughts are based on 200 yards , this is why I shoot cast in the 1903a3, Mauser, and 303. When I find time to do up a load for the K31 that will be pussy loads too

    Oh and I will be shooting my 22cal AR in UMM as they ruled state any cal up to 8mm
     
  11. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    Does that mean I can bring my AR-308 in 6.5 CM, as long as it has iron sights? Or does UMM allow optics- rules keep changing I'm beginning to forget...

    I think the newer HXP has slightly larger case tolerances. Not necessarily specs, but tolerances. Ask Rich or Franco.
     
  12. daekken

    daekken NES Member

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    I think I asked Franco once and indeed the Varget (I think it was Varget, anyway) load he suggested exceeded the max loads for M1 Garand in my manual.
    But obviously it works for him.

    The cost I paid for CMP HXP when they had it was more than my expense to load my own right now...I'm not "saving it" per se, I just know that since it's not available right now (likely ever), I like having it as a "control" reference point. I have about 450 rounds of it left. I never actually shot any CMP matches with my reloads--only from my HXP stash. Partly because HXP was known quantity for me at 200 yds and I have no idea how my loads would do; but I know I'm delaying the inevitable.

    When you guys separate brass, do you just load them in batches or do you keep some aside for "casual" shooting or something? I understand the premise of separating the brass as there are differences, but I'm wondering if you segregate them for the purpose of "I only use milsurp [or commercial/certain manufacturer, etc.] in matches, and I use [xxxx] for practice/other stuff." Or does all your brass "have it's time in the sun" and you just adjust your sights/hold etc based on sighters or other criteria. If I recall Mountain is fond of the Lapua.

    I did make it over to shoot the next two targets; there was a clear winner today. News at 11:00.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2019
  13. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    I gander with 30-06 brass be it LC,HXP Federal there will be as much volume discrepancy case to case from the same lot as from manufacture to manufacture?
    762NATO might be a bit more touchy?
    Anyhow try doing a HO2 volume test and let me know how you make out., I failed at trying
     
  14. millbilly

    millbilly NES Member

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    20181118_173052.jpg My grandfather was in the 87th
     
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  15. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    For my M1 I have aprox 200 cases each of several different HXP years
    I run 200 cases until I see damage on case extraction rim or split necks this 200 cases are then deemed done and put in the ? Bucket I will then grab the next batch , at some point I will inspect the bucket and load up plinking ammo if I have any or do something like make 7.7 jap ? My garand brass gets pretty beat buy 6 loads.
    My 308 M1 brass is to young to tell and I run mixed head stamp.
    I don’t think my ammo is the fault of me not scoring well. 3moa is not hard to come too with what we load?

    For my cmp service grades I tend to shoot HXP as it’s cheap enough and they are just blasting. What would be nice is if somewhere if cmp can’t get HXP again they come across some surplus bullets and sell them for 8-10 cents each. Perfect for range blasting. I have about 300 150 grain pulls from 10 years ago. You could pick up hornady 150s for about 11 cents and pulls for about .04 in quantity
     
  16. majspud

    majspud NES Life Member NES Member

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    Well, in the words of Gabriel “Fluffy” Iglesias,

    DAMN.

    t
     
  17. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    Nice I hope to get my MM AR in before winters end, I got another 2” to cut and trim down the barrel .200” and run it!
     
  18. daekken

    daekken NES Member

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    Target 1: 89-1x
    Target 2: 93-0x


    So I shot the remaining 10 each of my 150 and 168 gr Varget loads.
    Overcast, but not nearly as windy as yesterday. I was also able to be a little more patient without as much of a time limit.
    Unlike yesterday, I didn't go round robin; I did all 10 on 168, then all 10 on 150.

    For the 150, my hits were low to start. I found this strange since it was high and right yesterday. Also a bias to the left. The last shot was the one right below the "8" on the left. Not sure if it was yesterday's wind, or a different factor? But, there was a near perfect X to enjoy.
    150-2.jpg

    For the 168s, I managed to hold black on all 10. First one was the lowest one, then the furthest left. From there on it went pretty well. Going into the last shot I actually got really nervous since I didn't want to blow it. Thankfully it was also in the black. No Xs though.
    168-2.jpg

    Goes to show what a little more patience can do, I guess. So, the 168s definitely performed better, BUT with the controversy that they were shot first; barrel heat or something else could have played a role. Would be cool to see if I did more of them and reversed the order if the outcome would be the same.
     
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  19. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    Now now that you have a bit of a base line and a few scores in... I say
    Shoot prone with sling but use sandbags to support your front arm and rear of stock. It’s very stable and will help see how the ammo and rifle do with the least influence from you. ?
     
  20. Fritz the Cat

    Fritz the Cat NES Member

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    An excerpt from the chapter "The Riges That Couldn't be Taken"

    Not so fortunate were the men of Companies C and D of the Eighty seventh, who had an unpleasant introduction to Nazi combat tactics. After a dawn firefight near the crest of Belvedere, several Germans came forward from a bunker with their hands up calling out "[Nicht] boom, comrade. Sergeant William F. Murphy walked out to receive the prospective prisoners, when they suddenly dove to the ground. Their Nazi cohorts hiding behind them then opened fire, killing Murphy and wounding several other U.S. mountain troopers before the Americans could shoot them down.
    The members of 87-C, serving under newly appointed captain and company commander Morley Nelson (later to become the world's leading expert and trainer of birds of prey), were both horrified and deeply hardened by the incident. One of the troopers was looking off to the side when the Nazis began shooting. According to Nelson, the boy was hit near the temple:

    A bullet took out the ridge of his nose and both eyes. [Hel screamed and staggered over to the south side of the ridge, trying to get away... We ran over to assist [him], and saw one of the most horrible sights any man will ever see. [He] was trying to go down through the snow with blood coming out of his head and face, and he'd fall down and get up and go some more, and the men were so horrified by his injury that [for a while] they couldn't gather up the strength to help out. . . . So from that day on . . . Company C never took a prisoner.
     
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  21. millbilly

    millbilly NES Member

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    He served in regiment HQ but I believe participated in the battle of mt belvedere in some capacity. He died before I had lots of questions. The new England chapter of the 10th mtn association started inviting those German alpine troops to their cookouts years later.
     
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  22. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    That's pretty cool. I don't think my Gramps harbored any ill will to the Japanese and would have broken bread with them years later. He actually spoke generally positive about the Japanese when he stayed for some of the occupation after the battles in the Philippines.

    Mountain warfare units are a special breed. Lot's to do to preserve your own skin before even picking up a rifle.
     
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  23. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    94/100 2x
    308 M1
    175 grain M1 ball pulled bullets
    2650fps H4895 powder

    Loaded up the 308 M1 in hopes for a true winter entry, cold and snowing right now maybe it will hold out till lunch.
    Won’t be shooting prone today as my hip is not well at the moment. I will shoot from bench with sling and elbows on table. It’s a lousy way to shoot.
    I have 12 rounds of the 175 grain M1 ball pulls
    As usual my phone battery is low and died. Post some pics later


    View: https://youtu.be/


    View: https://imgur.com/a/FlvzXB0

    Walked it in best I could . Of course as soon as I was ready the clouds cleared and the sun came out ... could not see shit. Glare off the snow was ridiculous! It was hard picking up the shots with the spotting scope. That low 9 was a brain fart held 6oc for some reason!
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2019
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  24. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    Nice- hope it works out for your lunch.

    If I can load up some 54R I want to try some new loads with the 150 SST's in the M39 and maybe PU Sniper but via irons.
     
  25. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    i hope to get something going in the mosin , like to be able to post a good score at least with in my average. That rifle and I just cant come together.
     
  26. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    Just a Note Hodgdons data for varget and 30-06 are not "M1 Garand Data" Hornady puts starting loads for the "garand" in very low end of 4x.0 grains.
     
  27. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    Gotcha. Still, if I'm getting 2600 to 2700 fps somewhere around 46+ grains- I'm going for the better case fill. Somewhere I have my own chrony data from the M1 with Varget. Dropping below 46 grains had a higher variance in velocity, which in my mind (getting to be more slippery every year) validated the Hodgdon data. I realize different M1's could yield different results. IIRC, Seabee runs a little more Varget- not a hot load but a little 'warmer' than my 46.5.
     
  28. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    Im surprised he uses varget and not 4064 and or IMR/H 4895 after those are the only powders you will ever need!
     
  29. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    I don't think he's a regular Varget guy, maybe he is, but the load he gave me was just a little higher than what I use.
     
  30. majspud

    majspud NES Life Member NES Member

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    Garand is still downstairs amongst the new kitchen cabinets and other stuff. Have a little cart so I don't exceed any weight limits. Deconstruction of the kitchen and bath supposed to start Monday.....delayed once for my heart attack and again as the plumber got a hernia. Monday might work out....

    Florida LTC a step closer to reality...got a letter that my picture did not meet specifications...will send another off Monday.

    Note the little calico sleeping on the radiator....14 years old last Saturday...less than 5 pounds.

    t
     

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