2014 USPSA Area 7 Championship - Registration open

[Lugnut]

Hey Dave ToF S, you said that production had the most competition, check out the stats for Limited shooters.. make the switch!

I just checked- looks like Limited has a damn strong field for sure... it's tempting. I'm not sure honestly what I'll do this year but with Craig playing around with SS, lots doing Limited....

 

[Lugnut]

There are so many clubs offering USPSA locally, including a couple newer clubs- Hopkinton, Sig, along with the existing- Manville, HSC, Monson, BUAS, NB, Bass, and Maine . This is compounded by the fact that many clubs also provide other shooting activities such as Steel Challenge, IDPA, Falling Steel, etc. So Burnout is a huge issue- impacting major matches. So...

Let's talk about burn out- is the hardest part getting people to set up stages? run stages? design stages? limited available times to set up stages? Scoring? Breaking down? I think every club seems to be a bit different. I know I recently ran a nonUSPSA large match (which was well attended and generally well staffed) but when it was time to break down all the stages- there was literally only three of us- man that sucked.

Burn out comes in lots of flavors. I know in most of the matches I go to there are lots of ROs that step up to run the timers/score. But I suspect this is the least of the problems. But maybe not. Maybe we can talk more about this specific topic in a separate thread?

Here's one of my thoughts- I think setting up/designing a stage is a big task. I think running a squad is a big task. I think breaking down is a big task. I think scoring a match is a big task. Most clubs seem to have one team almost doing ALL of this at a given match. Maybe we can break this into smaller tasks handled by different people? I can on and on but I'm not sure this thread is the appropriate place.... thoughts?

 

[Gammon]

There are so many clubs offering USPSA locally, including a couple newer clubs- Hopkinton, Sig, along with the existing- Manville, HSC, Monson, BUAS, NB, Bass, and Maine . This is compounded by the fact that many clubs also provide other shooting activities such as Steel Challenge, IDPA, Falling Steel, etc. So Burnout is a huge issue- impacting major matches. So...

Let's talk about burn out- is the hardest part getting people to set up stages? run stages? design stages? limited available times to set up stages? Scoring? Breaking down? I think every club seems to be a bit different. I know I recently ran a nonUSPSA large match (which was well attended and generally well staffed) but when it was time to break down all the stages- there was literally only three of us- man that sucked.

Burn out comes in lots of flavors. I know in most of the matches I go to there are lots of ROs that step up to run the timers/score. But I suspect this is the least of the problems. But maybe not. Maybe we can talk more about this specific topic in a separate thread?

Here's one of my thoughts- I think setting up/designing a stage is a big task. I think running a squad is a big task. I think breaking down is a big task. I think scoring a match is a big task. Most clubs seem to have one team almost doing ALL of this at a given match. Maybe we can break this into smaller tasks handled by different people? I can on and on but I'm not sure this thread is the appropriate place.... thoughts?

Breakdown at the end of the match is a real chore. At a lot of matches I have shot (Harvard is a good example) the squads are expected to break down their stages at the end of the match. This practice takes a load off of the back of the host club and really speeds up the process. Perhaps this practice should be more widespread.

 

[SJan]

Hey Dave ToF S, you said that production had the most competition, check out the stats for Limited shooters.. make the switch!

more shooters in a division does not equal more competition

 

[Pyano]

Breakdown at the end of the match is a real chore. At a lot of matches I have shot (Harvard is a good example) the squads are expected to break down their stages at the end of the match. This practice takes a load off of the back of the host club and really speeds up the process. Perhaps this practice should be more widespread.

At a major a match, stages cannot be broken down until 1 hour after the last shot fired. Breakdown help is hard to find at that point. Personally, I find the wait hard when your tired.

 

[Lugnut]

At a major a match, stages cannot be broken down until 1 hour after the last shot fired. Breakdown help is hard to find at that point. Personally, I find the wait hard when your tired.

Let me chime in on this if I can. I understand that Al- it's not easy. And for major matches because of the rules, there isn't much you can do. But I'm thinking that if local matches were a little easier for the staff- general burn out wouldn't be as much of a problem?

My philosophy- is that if you set up Or RO the match OR spend a couple hours tearing down you shoot the match for free. We need all the people we can get to help out. And although $20 isn't going to motivate everyone it's something. Maybe some clubs can't afford this but many clubs now have a good supply of poppers, props, etc. already. Not sure. But we need to find some ideas that can work.

 

[Cuz]

Here's one of my thoughts- I think setting up/designing a stage is a big task. I think running a squad is a big task. I think breaking down is a big task. I think scoring a match is a big task. Most clubs seem to have one team almost doing ALL of this at a given match. Maybe we can break this into smaller tasks handled by different people? I can on and on but I'm not sure this thread is the appropriate place.... thoughts?

Another issue is that local matches at some clubs are not very receptive to letting new people into their "group". They have a small group of "action pistol shooters" or whatever they call themselves and they do most of the work. They say they want and need help, but when a new kid comes along and wants to volunteer and help out they are not made to feel all that welcome. As friendly as the local shooters are around here, there are also quite a few "clicks" that tend to shun other shooters. When someone shows up early to help out 3 or 4 matches in a row, busts their butt, and then gets virtually ignored by the group he thought he was helping out, it doesn't send a very good message.

- Cuz.

 

[kimmie1911]

Lugnut, BUAS for example - when we were at Boston, we could set up two stages the night before. We typically set up on Saturday nite, starting around 5 or 6pm and finishing, whenever. First come up with 4 stages which look good on paper or in your head but then takes hours of rearranging because the angles just don't work on an indoor range. There are only so many stages that work on an indoor range and even fewer classifiers that will work. Lug out a ton of barricades, props and steel. Paint and staple targets. Repair shot up props. Mark the range for the 2 stages to be set up after the first two are shot. Again, some rearrangement may be necessary. This was a 2 day commitment for folks. Then, after the match, enter scores (decipher folks handwriting on score sheets), then later, do the cut and paste thing to post to the NE section page. I have to say that we NEVER had to break down the stages and put stuff away because the shooters that came to our matches were AWESOME doing this. Now at Mystic, we can only set up one stage the night before and plan the other 3. We set up starting at 6 on Saturday. Staple, paint, repair. Lug out barricades, steel, props. Sunday morning we are usually there at 6, 6:30am to set up the other stage. Because we're setting up stages 3 and 4 on the fly, things don't always go as planned.

It's a big commitment. I have never said no to help. Anyone that has asked to come and help, they are welcomed with open arms and if you help set up, you shoot for free. And, as Lugnut said to me, I am too hard on myself. I take everything personally and want everything to be perfect. I want the stages to be fun and challenging and I want to give people their money's worth. Add that to the stress factor, lol.

I enjoy it but my body can only take so much. Burn out is real and if you don't have enough help, burn out comes sooner. We are so lucky at our matches that so many step up to help r.o. and score and break down stages and it is seriously appreciated.

Like I said, if not for Joe and Steve with lots of energy and new ideas, BUAS would have ended. I think it's the same for major matches if the same folks are doing it over and over and over. It stops being fun.


I wish I had an answer. More help is always good but I think on the whole, folks do what they can. Maybe some master sign up sheet for Area 7 clubs where people commit to helping certain days at certain clubs?

 

[Lugnut]

Donna- you have always been very friendly and welcoming for sure! And I appreciate it a ton. I felt bad when I skipped out early instead of waiting for the other squad to finish to help break down. I won't let that happen again. But I think more people can step up to help break the work load up- including myself.

I think one thing I have learned is that you can't be too shy about asking for help... all the time!! Ask people if at all possible to please help after the match, or whatever, etc. Of course there are some people that drive 3 hours or have to be somewhere but we gotta find a way to help out more as a whole. When I do MWT IDPA I REALLY encourage help.. but even then it's a challenge. As example sometimes you can't breakdown right away and we can't expect people to wait around to help. It's a real problem with no easy answers but the alternative isn't so good.

 

[SJan]

Another issue is that local matches at some clubs are not very receptive to letting new people into their "group". They have a small group of "action pistol shooters" or whatever they call themselves and they do most of the work. They say they want and need help, but when a new kid comes along and wants to volunteer and help out they are not made to feel all that welcome. As friendly as the local shooters are around here, there are also quite a few "clicks" that tend to shun other shooters. When someone shows up early to help out 3 or 4 matches in a row, busts their butt, and then gets virtually ignored by the group he thought he was helping out, it doesn't send a very good message.

- Cuz.

I don't know where you have been shooting. At the clubs I've been shooting at; Harvard, New Bedford, Hopkinton, Monson, Manville, BUAS, Bass river, Westfield, my helping out setting up/tearing down, ROing, is all very much appreciated.

This spring is my 3rd season as a USPSA memeber/shooter. Midway into my first season i had a good enough idea of how things ran, and started helping out as much as I could. I didn't know most folks by name, but more often than not, the match directors or stage ROs would make it a point to say "thanks for the help"

At one of the above clubs, I have been approached on a few occasions in the morning before a match, and told not to pay for the days match to cover the help I put in on the previous month's match.

Yes there are 'clicks' of shooters. The ones I think you are referring too are shooters more than match working people. The people that run matches do and will see your effort to help out and do appreciate it.

 

[Cuz]

One possible solution I've often thought about is to charge an extra $5 for the match, then you can pay the folks that help out. Some folks just can't help out too much due to physical ailments, etc. Many wouldn't mind helping out by paying extra $ to compensate those that do the work. And if money is a problem, then you can volunteer to work and get paid. If you think about a match the size of Harvard or New Bedford, you'd have about $500 to use to pay people to stay and clean up. Not too shabby.

This is definately NOT the thread for this, but while I'm on the subject, I'll mention a problem that has bugged me personally at some matches. I see it most at New Bedford, because that's the biggest match I shoot. THIS IS NOT THEIR FAULT and I'm sure it happens everywhere, but I notice it here most. After the match, there's a small group of shooters that stay to work hard breaking down the stages. I'm usually one of them when I shoot. Then, there's a small group of people that work even harder at scrounging all the brass. They don't help with the stages, but walk away with all the brass. When my son and I shoot a match, there's a lot of brass we're leaving on the range. I'd love to get some of it back, but when we're done helping with breakdown all the brass is LOOOOONNG gone. I get very annoyed when me and my son are busting our butts helping to clean up and I'm watching a bunch of other shooters getting all excited about all the brass they are "scoring". The only solution I can think of is to only allow brass collection AFTER stage cleanup, but I don't know if that will work. It's just one of those things that bug me and makes me wonder if I should be helping to break down stages or go get my brass...

-Cuz.

 

[kimmie1911]

I don't think anyone should be chastised for not helping unless it's something that seems to be their m.o., shooting and scooting on a regular basis. That being said, I think we all understand that sometimes folks just have to leave because of other commitments. We all know there are people that don't tape, don't reset steel, and don't help break down. There are jerks in the shooting sports and there are jerks in everyday life. That's just how it is. Brass whores are everywhere and not thought well of. I think for the most part though, the majority of people step up and help.

I think offering to pay people is opening a whole 'nother can of worms. It's a volunteer sport. None of my crew gets paid other than shooting for free and I sure wouldn't pay 'volunteers'. We don't have a big balance at the end of the season and I try to empty our 'account' by having a pizza party for our last match. We're doing well this year and that's enabled us to buy a new piece of steel that cost $375. Steel is not cheap. We also have to buy targets, tape, lumber, etc. and pay fees to USPSA. The extra money enables the clubs to provide all those cool props and steel that people love and replace the props that folks shoot up. We also plan to give Mystic Valley a check at the end of the season to help pay to repair any damages caused by our matches. Boston Gun and Rifle took a portion of our match fees right up front.

I really don't have any good answers.

 

[TY43215]

Never mind

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I think offering to pay people is opening a whole 'nother can of worms.

If you start to pay people for cleanup, what about the RO's, stage builders, organizers, stats team, etc. Once one job is paid, fairness would tend to suggest the other jobs should be paid as well ... and you'll need a lot more than $5/head.

The USPSA nationals isn't exactly a money maker, despite the $250+ entry fee- and that;'s with volunteer RO's who get free food, lodging, and a fixed stipend to partially cover travel expenses.

 

[Lugnut]

Maybe a good place to start is to determine what is the biggest drain on people/clubs?

-Stage Design
-Stage Set up
-ROing (Timer/Scoring)
-Break Down and put away props
-Scoring
-General match directing/planing stuff

Scoring seems to be going great with the new electric system- hopefully that helps with uploading scores... might cause more work up front.

From matches I've run, helped, I'd say StageDesign/Setup and Breakdown are most difficult part (physically and requiring multiple people). Set up is tough because the pre match hours are very limited, and lots of hard work. Breakdown is just hard work at the end of a long day usually. I've tried to have two crews- essentially one for setting up and another one to break down- that can help a lot. It all comes down to man power and doing a lot to solicit help.

The big missing piece is how to solicit/get more help... or am I off?

 

[kimmie1911]

Dave - all of the above! Stage design more so for an indoor range. I can't tell you how many times I've had a stage in my head and when we go to set it up, finally (after multiple tries) have to trash it because it just won't work. Outdoors, not so much. BUAS is lucky that we have so many shooters that can and do r.o. and score. And breakdown and putting stuff away also, has never been an issue. THANK YOU ALL!!!!!!! The new scoring has been a steep learning curve, especially when things go wrong, but, I think in the end, it's going to be awesome!

The biggest drain on me is pre stage planning and the physical part of pulling out the equipment and setting it up. Sorry, but big strong guys are needed. Also, painting and stapling up targets. Measuring for the classifiers. Again, we are lucky that most folks help put stuff away. The other part is the mental strain that I put on myself, wanting things to run well.

When we do a stage at a major match, we usually take certain duties but most of us are involved in the hole digging and initial set up of walls and barricades. Sawing, drilling, nailing, painting, ect. It's physically exhausting and add in travel time to and from the range for up to 3 days pre match. Last year at Sig, we weren't able to finish the staff shoot because of the weather and had to squeeze into stages over the 3 days of the match. Most of our scores suffered. One year at Harvard, the staff shoot lasted until almost 6pm the night before and we had to be back at 7 the next morning. Again, most of our scores suffered. Plus, for the club that is hosting the match, planning usually starts almost a year before.

I think we've hijacked this thread. Sorry. But yes, how do we get more help consistently? And no, paying folks isn't the answer.

*Forgive me for repeating myself - just trying to come up with answers.......

- - - Updated - - -

Never mind

Say it Gary........

 

[TY43215]

Say it Gary........

This has gone too far off topic now and nothing I say makes any difference anyway so................. Never mind

But when they start paying people, make sure the match directors that do a whole match alone are properly compensated and people with thousands of out of pocket expenses are reimbursed. See what you did Donna, don't get me going on this. I am out and maybe for good.

 

[GeeTen]

Ya' know -- I looked up "curmudgeon" in Webster's Dictionary today and guess whose picture was there . . .

Love ya' Gary,
"Point Blank" Frank


P.S. -- I just signed up to RO the match today -- puttin' my money where my mouth is (so to speak).

With no apologies to Shakespeare, I salute my sisters and brothers who worked the A7 match at the SIGSauer Academy last year and in matches past:

"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne’er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition;
And gentlemen in New England now-a-bed
Shall think themselves accurs’d they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That served with us upon the fields of Epping those day(s).

 

[TY43215]

Ya' know -- I looked up "curmudgeon" in Webster's Dictionary today and guess whose picture was there . . .

Love ya' Gary,
"Point Blank" Frank

How are things in that glass house Frank? Be careful attacking when you do not know what is going on. I have no hard feelings with USPSA,this section, or anyone else so don't try to foster any We have known each other too long for you to start this crap

 

[GeeTen]

Hey Gary,

I was just yankin' your chain. No "attack" meant -- I just got back from a long week on my feet officiating the SEC Swimming Championships at the University of Georgia. And you're right -- I don't know what is going on anyway.

Have a great day.

TTFN,
F.

 

[PMPSHOT]

I have reduced my participation in the sport due to lack of team work from fellow shooters taping, setting steel and match breakdown. Many who are able to help with these activities just come to shoot, collect brass and leave. If I had my way if someone does not help with taping or setting steel then no one should tape or set steel for that shooter's run. Let them do it for their run.

My hat goes off to those who fully participate in all activities.