20 dead black belts later

[dwarven1]

Seen on userfriendly.org's ordnance corner:

From that other site [no, I don't know what site he's referring to - Ross]

You gotta love people, if for no other reason than logical inconsistency.

So me and a few "killers" were all having a group training session. Every so often I get together with a network of martial arts terrors for a little stylistic cross training and fun.

So as we were wrapping things up and getting changed I pulled my SIG out of my bag and put it on my belt, and the bulls4 starts.

'Why are you carrying a gun? You're a black belt you don't need a weapon?"

"Black belts are suppossed to avoid violence and resolve conflict and YOU are gonna kill a person."

And the grand pubbah of stupidity...

"You will probably get killed by your own gun, you'd be better off without it."

Geeze, where to start with these idiots.

So swords and staffs are ok (as they were the most advanced weapons available to ancient warriors) but a modern warrior choosing the most advanced weapons of his day is offensive to the traditions of the martial arts? Brilliant bumpkin.

And black belts train every day to be able to kill a man with his bare hands or traditional weapons BUT shooting a person is wrong? Excuse me your brain seems to be in the "off" position.

And black belts train to fight against people armed with knives, sticks and GUNS but we are completely incapable of defending ourselves IF "we" are the one with a gun? Wow.

So I start with the obvious. Guns are the most advanced weapon of defense out there and that is why any intelligent person would learn to use and carry one.

And they doubted me. After all the mighty blacks belts could ALL defend themselves from a gun and render the unfortunate gun wielder helpless.

Put your training clothes back on and get back on the floor. I'm not far so I send a buddy to my house to grab an airsoft pistol and 500 rounds and safety goggles.

So here is the drill. I'll put an airsoft in my belt and you stand 8 feet away. You say "GO" and stop me from shooting you. Obviously in most conflicts the gun will be drawn but I decided to give these expert killers the advantage.

GO....Bang you're dead. One red welt on your forehead.

NEXT.

GO....Bang you're dead. A red welt for you.

NEXT.

GO....Bang you're dead. A red welt for you.

NEXT.

GO....Bang you're dead. A red welt for you.

NEXT.

Repeat about 20 times.

End of the night...NOBODY was able to get me.

Well...they cried....YOU are also a black belt so YOU are faster than a mugger.

So I hand it over to one of my buddies who isn't a black belt and same drill.

GO....Bang you're dead. A red welt for you.

NEXT.

GO....Bang you're dead. A red welt for you.

NEXT.

GO....Bang you're dead. A red welt for you.

NEXT.

Repeat, repeat, repeat.

Some were enlightened, most remain idiots who are convinced they were somehow "cheated" but all would be dead if they were stupid enough to try and take on a "gun." A noteworthy handful began to examine real world gun scenarios with a much more realistic perspective.

But none of them were still confident that my gun would be "easily taken from me" at the end of the night. Some now hate guns even more, in a real fight they would be dead now.

Was kinda funny. Nothing like a real world demonstration to end a debate.

 

[FPrice]

So here is the drill. I'll put an airsoft in my belt and you stand 8 feet away. You say "GO" and stop me from shooting you.

This is in direct conflict with the guidance given in the Tueller drill. They use 21 feet (and I understand that they are thinking about increasing that to 25 feet or so) and very few if any can draw and shoot before most people can cover that distance. Of course the attacker in the Tueller drill has a knife to make things interesting.

I'd tend to raise the Barbra Streisand Flag on this and ask to see the participants re-create said event.

 

[dwarven1]

So here is the drill. I'll put an airsoft in my belt and you stand 8 feet away. You say "GO" and stop me from shooting you.

This is in direct conflict with the guidance given in the Tueller drill. They use 21 feet (and I understand that they are thinking about increasing that to 25 feet or so) and very few if any can draw and shoot before most people can cover that distance. Of course the attacker in the Tueller drill has a knife to make things interesting.

I'd tend to raise the Barbra Streisand Flag on this and ask to see the participants re-create said event.

My only guess is that A: this guy didn't have any concealing garment over the gun and B: the other guys were trying to grab the gun, not knife him. other than that... I have no idea.

 

[FPrice]

or C: The other guys really weren't trying.

 

[dwarven1]

or C: The other guys really weren't trying.

Think it might have something to do with getting an airsoft pellet in the face? I'd think that could make you hesitate.

 

[FPrice]

Put your training clothes back on and get back on the floor. I'm not far so I send a buddy to my house to grab an airsoft pistol and 500 rounds and safety goggles.

I really don't know. Stick an unloaded gun in your belt and see how long it takes you to draw it.

Or put that guy up against someone who knows how to do the Tueller drill and see if he has the same amount of luck.

 

[Lynne]

I have a friend who's a mountain - he's gotta be 240 lbs and 6'5" at least. He's got like 4 or 5 black belts. He carries ALL the time. Why? Because one time the BG's got the jump on him and he got beat to crap by 6 guys.

 

[senorFrog]

GO....Bang you're dead. One red welt on your forehead.

NEXT.

GO....Bang you're dead. A red welt for you.

I think this is a funny story. [lol]

 

[mark056]

"No matter what your strength or size, Colonel Colt will equalize"

Mark

 

[Lynne]

"No matter what your strength or size, Colonel Colt will equalize"

Amen.

 

[FPrice]

"No matter what your strength or size, Colonel Colt will equalize"

True. But only if you are able to use your firearm.

 

[Skald]

IMHO people put to much 'oh my god your a black belt'. Its nice and makes you tougher to beat, but doesn't make you invincible in a fight against those who don't know it.

 

[dwarven1]

"No matter what your strength or size, Colonel Colt will equalize"

I thought it was "G-d created man; Colonel Colt made them equal."

 

[TonyD]

The true study of martial arts or any disciplined self defense system will do one thing and one thing only - maximize your personal abilities to survive a self defense situation.

Martial artists of yore used the weapons they had at hand. I teach all students to use all the weapons at hand today, that includes empty hands, an ink pen, a knife, a club, a gun, etc. Learning traditional empty-hand techniques is great in the beginning but it must not stop there.

In the above scenario, I would say the sidearm was already drawn or the 'black belts' were like so many of today and not worth their salt.

 

[mark056]

Ross,

Your Colt quote is another Colt saying.

I think Tony D. brings up an interesting point: I was chatting with an MBTA Transit Cop this afternoon. His remarks were "who fights with fists anymore ?" "It might start out with fists, but it is going to escalate to some other kind of weapon." He wasn't necessarily referring to guns, but to knvies or chains or any number of blunt trauma and cutting instruments.

Mark

 

[dwarven1]

There's a reason I have a 4 D-cell Maglight in my car...

 

[Marcus in the Darkus]

I call bullshit on the entire story. And even if it's true, the author made a huge mistake by openly arming himself in front of his ninja buddies. Pretty much defeats the purpose of concealed carry.

 

[Supermoto]

If the attackers reaction is based on the seeing the gun move and not a mutual GO, then this maybe possible if the gun is by your side and not in your belt

even when a gun is pointed to your head, you can get out of the line of fire and start to move in to counter before the shot is fired. This ofcourse is based on the shooter reacting to the attacker

 

[SiameseRat]

Why don't we just ask these black belt guys whether they want the US Military to turn in their guns and start heading to the dojo before they go off to war...

Too extreme?

Scenario #2- an armed rapist is in your house and on top of you/your mother/wife/daughter. Do you want a) a black belt or b) a gun?

[roll] [roll] [roll] [roll] [roll]

 

[TonyD]

Scenario #2- an armed rapist is in your house and on top of you/your mother/wife/daughter. Do you want a) a black belt or b) a gun?

[roll] [roll] [roll] [roll] [roll]

Both! Self defense does not start or stop with a gun, nor does start or stop with empty hands. Thats the point I'm trying to make.

 

[Chris]

"Belt used to hold up pants."

"... And another for Jenny and the Wimp."


Only time you can really win against a gun is if it is within reach before you move. And even then it's a crapshoot. if it is actually touching your body, you have a better chance. Counter intuitive, but seen it proven time and again.

 

[TonyD]

"Belt used to hold up pants."

"... And another for Jenny and the Wimp."


Only time you can really win against a gun is if it is within reach before you move. And even then it's a crapshoot. if it is actually touching your body, you have a better chance. Counter intuitive, but seen it proven time and again.

This is true, to a point. There is just too much involved in even getting into a discussion about attempting a disarmament.

 

[senorFrog]

Look at this way Mr Ninja, it's not REALLY a gun, it's a lightning staff.

 

[Lynne]

Scenario #2- an armed rapist is in your house and on top of you/your mother/wife/daughter. Do you want a) a black belt or b) a gun?

Actually SR, Tony's right. You use whatever the hell you've got available. Even if I'm not armed with a handgun, I still have my knee, my foot, my elbow, my teeth, etc. etc. and heaven help the a-hole who thinks I'm just gonna roll over and be his play thing. (Another thing we tell the females in our class - DO NOT go peacefully to thine fate - fight like hell and make them wish they had picked someone else.)

 

[jshooter]

Just 2 quick points: you can't karate chop a bullet (lame attempt at humor) and I don't think a mugger or whoever the bad guy is is not going to have his gun secured in a holster at the 4 o'clock strong side. If hes coming for you its in his hand at his side or in his pocket.

 

[dwarven1]

When I was studying jujitsu (longer ago than I really want to mention), Sensei taught us that the best defense against someone with a knife was to use feet (two reasons: legs are longer than arms, so you stay away from the blade, and because you could RUN with them) and the best defense against someone with a gun was to follow orders.

That said, he then proceeded to show us the disarms. As I recall, he also told us that he really didn't want to hear about us using them.

 

[FPrice]

Liz Kennedy ( http://www.modernwarrior.com/lizk.htm ) has an interesting article in the January 2006 issue of SWAT magazine which addresses this issue from a slightly different perspective. She tells about a rather well-conditioned and aggressive female semi-pro boxer who lost a fight to another competitor who was ""juiced" or on steroids". She apparently lost because in her own words,

"After that experience, I know that if I ever have to fight someone 'juiced' or on drugs again, I'm going to hit and run because I know I won't be able to beat them."

Kennedy goes on to discuss sport fighting, real-world street fights, and the difference in attitude that will get you through the latter. Might be worth reading for her comments and ideas.