2 Questions For a New Gun Owner

[Broc]

I turned another guy into guns. Did the class this past weekend and has the application.

1. He is applying in a PD (not Boston) that requires 2 letters of recommendation. I will write one. But, is that still a thing after Bruen? (This is me being curious, he won't fight the PD).

2. This is the complicated one ... he was born in Europe, his dad moved here when he was young, I believe 2 or 3, and he became a citizen through his father. Does anyone know what paper he needs to present since he doesn't have a U.S birth certificate?

I presented my naturalization certificate, but I became a citizen as an adult.

I googled and found a form called N-600, but I am not sure this is the right one.

 

[Waher]

US passport?

 

[Broc]

US passport?

I don't think that works for naturalized citizens. At least for gun licenses.

 

[CATI]

If you mean he was born to an American parent outside of the US he can get a Certificate of Citizenship (not that same as a naturalization certificate)

 

[jkelly1229]

Pretty sure he needs to prove he's American

Needs to show any 4 of the following

Empty case of budweiser
Minimum 3 lynard skynard shirts
Proof at one time he grew a mullet
Evidence of firework usage
Putting baseball cards in his bike spokes
Eating a burger that's only bacon sandwhiched between two pattys
Proof of at least 2 country concert attendances
Proof of 1 nfl game attendance and life time ban from stadium

 

[rogersmithiii]

Pretty sure he needs to prove he's American

Needs to show any 4 of the following

Empty case of budweiser
Minimum 3 lynard skynard shirts
Proof at one time he grew a mullet
Evidence of firework usage
Putting baseball cards in his bike spokes
Eating a burger that's only bacon sandwhiched between two pattys
Proof of at least 2 country concert attendances
Proof of 1 nfl game attendance and life time ban from stadium

You forgot NASCAR.

 

[Broc]

If you mean he was born to an American parent outside of the US he can get a Certificate of Citizenship (not that same as a naturalization certificate)

No. His dad is a foreigner. This guy was born in another country to a foreigner dad, then the dad moved to America and became a citizen.

This kid became a citizen through his father because he was a minor.

 

[pastera]

Passport will work - it is definitive proof of citizenship.

Naturalization for Children - United States Department of State

Information for naturalization cases involving U.S. Department of State children.

www.state.gov

 

[weekendracer]

No. His dad is a foreigner. This guy was born in another country to a foreigner dad, then the dad moved to America and became a citizen.

This kid became a citizen through his father because he was a minor.

How long ago? I'm guessing 'pre-computerized everything'. If he's legally a US citizen, his social security card and any other government ID any other citizen has.

Where you came from doesn't really matter 'technically' once you have that paperwork.

 

[PaulR]

Hey I never grew a mullet and I, oh wait, damn....nevermind.
Good luck op.

 

[pastera]

No. His dad is a foreigner. This guy was born in another country to a foreigner dad, then the dad moved to America and became a citizen.

This kid became a citizen through his father because he was a minor.

This exact situation was discussed here years ago where Boston required a US birth certificate, naturalization card or green card. None of which a naturalized minor would have. Boston was beat down by a Com2a laywer and began accepting passports as proof of citizenship.

 

[Hoover]

Regarding the letters, they may be able to deny a license if you didn’t submit them but the letters are pointless because anything used from the letters would be for subjective views of the applicant. SCOTUS essentially said any gun license process needs to be objective, not open to the varying opinions of the issuing official. So a govt can require a safety class, range time etc. I believe the 2 reference letters could be viewed as an objective requirement but the use of them would be subjective.

I forgot my two on renewal pre bruen and he said he didn’t care, don’t worry about it. The reference letters may be around for a while since it’s so pointless no 2A group is going to waste money fighting that in court when sensitive places, mag limits, AWB, handgun rosters, etc still exist.

 

[Sweeney]

First, he needs to fly to Mexico...

 

[Joeldiaz]

Regarding the letters, they may be able to deny a license if you didn’t submit them but the letters are pointless because anything used from the letters would be for subjective views of the applicant. SCOTUS essentially said any gun license process needs to be objective, not open to the varying opinions of the issuing official. So a govt can require a safety class, range time etc. I believe the 2 reference letters could be viewed as an objective requirement but the use of them would be subjective.

I forgot my two on renewal pre bruen and he said he didn’t care, don’t worry about it. The reference letters may be around for a while since it’s so pointless no 2A group is going to waste money fighting that in court when sensitive places, mag limits, AWB, handgun rosters, etc still exist.

While you are technically correct, it is worth pointing out that the AG’s guidance post-Bruen specifically pointed out that the only things that changed about the MA LTC application process was the removal of restrictions and no longer denying/restricting LTCs due to lack of a “good reason.” Everything else remains the same, including the subjective requirement of suitability. The legislature even went so far as to pass a bill codifying suitability after the Bruen decision, and PDs are still using it to unjustly deny people their LTCs.

So theoretically the PDs could still use those references to determine if the applicant is suitable to be issued an LTC. Even though there is certain criteria for determining suitability, police chiefs often overstep their authority and they seem to love using it as their catch-all to deny people. This seems like it would be an easy slam dunk case to litigate post-Bruen, but I doubt we’ll see legal challenges any time soon due to a combination of more important issues to litigate as well as finding the right plaintiffs.

 

[Realtor MA]

Other than asking the question on the application do they also ask for proof?

 

[eboos]

While you are technically correct, it is worth pointing out that the AG’s guidance post-Bruen specifically pointed out that the only things that changed about the MA LTC application process was the removal of restrictions and no longer denying/restricting LTCs due to lack of a “good reason.” Everything else remains the same, including the subjective requirement of suitability. The legislature even went so far as to pass a bill codifying suitability after the Bruen decision, and PDs are still using it to unjustly deny people their LTCs.

So theoretically the PDs could still use those references to determine if the applicant is suitable to be issued an LTC. Even though there is certain criteria for determining suitability, police chiefs often overstep their authority and they seem to love using it as their catch-all to deny people. This seems like it would be an easy slam dunk case to litigate post-Bruen, but I doubt we’ll see legal challenges any time soon due to a combination of more important issues to litigate as well as finding the right plaintiffs.

I wouldn't put too much worry on "subjective suitability". It has no teeth. Any determination as to suitability would have to be on "arguably" objective grounds. The state would need to positively show why you are "unsuitable", based on criteria that is clearly established and uniformly applied. Any denial is appealable. Could they require references? Sure (did my MA LTC post Bruen), but that will have little bearing on the application. I don't think my references were contacted, and I am not aware of any instance where references were contacted.

 

[Broc]

Other than asking the question on the application do they also ask for proof?

Yes, I believe so. I didn't look at the application, he texted me this.

 

[eboos]

Yes, I believe so. I didn't look at the application, he texted me this.

For naturalized citizens it asks for a naturalization number and place where it occurred. I don't remember what proofs I provided when I did mine and it was only a few months ago. Not sure I provided any proofs (not a citizenship thing, but I am a non MA resident seeking a resident license through owning a MA business).

 

[Mesatchornug]

I am not aware of any instance where references were contacted.

Having been so-contacted, I am. But that was before Bruen. It's possible they're still doing it in Woburn, but I don't know.

 

[eboos]

 

[DrNVP]

I turned another guy into guns. Did the class this past weekend and has the application.

1. He is applying in a PD (not Boston) that requires 2 letters of recommendation. I will write one. But, is that still a thing after Bruen? (This is me being curious, he won't fight the PD).

2. This is the complicated one ... he was born in Europe, his dad moved here when he was young, I believe 2 or 3, and he became a citizen through his father. Does anyone know what paper he needs to present since he doesn't have a U.S birth certificate?

I presented my naturalization certificate, but I became a citizen as an adult.

I googled and found a form called N-600, but I am not sure this is the right one.

US passport is 100% proof of us citizenship. There was a comm2a court against Boston case a few years ago that settled this.

There are situations where a child may derive their citizenship through their parents naturalization. In these cases, the child does not get a naturalization certificate, but they are 100% citizens. See the Child Citizenship Act of 2000

I'm one of these people and every time I renew my LTC I always end up having to explain to the person processing it that a US passport is good to go. And I always get pushback because the state's official LTC form is horribly formatted and makes no mention of it.

Since the state form will never be updated to remove the requirement for a naturalization certificate, I expect police departments to continue this misinterpretation.

 

[Broc]

US passport is 100% proof of us citizenship. There was a comm2a court against Boston case a few years ago that settled this.

There are situations where a child may derive their citizenship through their parents naturalization. In these cases, the child does not get a naturalization certificate, but they are 100% citizens. See the Child Citizenship Act of 2000

I'm one of these people and every time I renew my LTC I always end up having to explain to the person processing it that a US passport is good to go. And I always get pushback because the state's official LTC form is horribly formatted and makes no mention of it.

Since the state form will never be updated to remove the requirement for a naturalization certificate, I expect police departments to continue this misinterpretation.

This is very helpful, thank you.

 

[DrNVP]

This is very helpful, thank you.

Comm2A Sues Boston Police over Passports

Yesterday Comm2A filed for a temporary restraining order against Boston Police Commissioner William Evans in order to force the department to accept valid US passports as proof of US citizenship. Currently, BPD requires firearms license applicants to provide either a US birth certificate or...

www.northeastshooters.com

found the old thread. Sounds like this is the same situation as your friend is in

 

[ReluctantDecoy]

Huh...I was adopted. Brought here at like 2 years old. I somehow have a birth certificate in MA. No idea how that happened.

 

[pastera]

Huh...I was adopted. Brought here at like 2 years old. I somehow have a birth certificate in MA. No idea how that happened.

Adoption is it's own weird area of law.

 

[Joeldiaz]

I wouldn't put too much worry on "subjective suitability". It has no teeth. Any determination as to suitability would have to be on "arguably" objective grounds. The state would need to positively show why you are "unsuitable", based on criteria that is clearly established and uniformly applied. Any denial is appealable. Could they require references? Sure (did my MA LTC post Bruen), but that will have little bearing on the application. I don't think my references were contacted, and I am not aware of any instance where references were contacted.

That’s the issue though, is that the suitability statute isn’t based on criteria that is clearly established and uniformly applied. In order to find a person unsuitable, the police chief must have “reliable and credible information that the person has exhibited or engaged in behavior that suggests that, if issued a license, he may create a risk to public safety” or “existing factors that suggest that, if issued a license, the person may create a risk to public safety.”

That is way too broad and gives the chiefs too much discretion, and even then many chiefs still go way too far. This causes people that would otherwise be perfectly eligible for an LTC to be denied arbitrarily, and the state and various police chiefs are proceeding as if Bruen never happened and using suitability as they always have been. Saying that any denial is appealable doesn’t really solve the issue, as it would still cost applicants thousands of dollars in legal fees to fight it in court and it would be a lengthy process. Bruen said that shall-issue licensing schemes were constitutional so long as they didn’t involve onerous burdens such as exorbitant fees and long wait times, and this has the potential for both. Not to mention the fact that anyone would doesn’t have the time or money to appeal the denial is screwed.

Bottom line is, suitability needs to go ASAP, regardless of whether or not you think it has any teeth.

 

[Bfatz]

Pretty sure he needs to prove he's American

Needs to show any 4 of the following

Empty case of budweiser
Minimum 3 lynard skynard shirts
Proof at one time he grew a mullet
Evidence of firework usage
Putting baseball cards in his bike spokes
Eating a burger that's only bacon sandwhiched between two pattys
Proof of at least 2 country concert attendances
Proof of 1 nfl game attendance and life time ban from stadium

My Gawd thats a fk'en riot man. Thanks I needed that.

 

[CATI]

Huh...I was adopted. Brought here at like 2 years old. I somehow have a birth certificate in MA. No idea how that happened.

I have a messed up birth certificate (name typo) and it doesn't match my social or DL
I went to get a copy and they were debating if they could fix it when they printed a new one in the town office (they did not)
I have a sibling that is three years younger and we have sequential social security numbers.
My parents were slacking on documents

 

[Qwikdraw45]

How long ago? I'm guessing 'pre-computerized everything'. If he's legally a US citizen, his social security card and any other government ID any other citizen has.

Where you came from doesn't really matter 'technically' once you have that paperwork.

Permanent Residents can get S/S cards, so that is not proof of citizenship. I believe Temp. Residents can, too, if they are here to work.

 

[Love Machine]

Permanent Residents can get S/S cards, so that is not proof of citizenship. I believe Temp. Residents can, too, if they are here to work.

Yup, I had a SocSec card when I was a temp alien. Still is my card.