2 More Milsurps Added

[JonJ]

Added 2 new ones over the weekend.
The first is a Finn M91. The barrel shank is scrubbed but the Imperial Eagle is still on the top of the receiver. Bolt matches and has the cleaning rod. It sits in it's original Russian stock. The tang ID's it as a 1907 Tula.
Being scrubbed it's an anomaly. It may be an uncommon "P" Series from 1925-27 but it hasn't been verified. Bore is counterbored but the rifling that's there is sharp and shiny.

Second is.....Yup, you guessed it, another Japanese Arisaka, Series 5. All matching except for the firing pin. Original finish on metal and wood. Has the Anti-Aircraft wings and cleaning rod. Ground Mum.

AA Winds extended.

 

[Moderator]

Sweet; so umm, when are ya opening the museum to the public.

 

[JonJ]

Sweet; so umm, when are ya opening the museum to the public.

Thanks.
I don't know about the museum but I have to get to work on the gun closet down cellar.

 

[Cledus J. Crabb]

Thanks.
I don't know about the museum but I have to get to work on the gun closet down cellar.

Along with your reloading bench............

 

[JonJ]

Along with your reloading bench............

Oh, a wise guy, huh...

 

[USMA-82]

Jon - a couple of beauties! Where did you pick them up, if I may ask?

 

[Soxfan9]

Nice rifles. I am feeling peer pressure to expand my collection.

 

[Cledus J. Crabb]

Oh, a wise guy, huh...

No way I could resist that one......You've got way too many empty cases screaming for attention.

 

[USMA-82]

Jon:

Do you have Doug Bowser's book, "Rifles of the White Death?" Just got mine in the mail Saturday - lots of good stuff about Finn rifles.

 

[JonJ]

Jon:

Do you have Doug Bowser's book, "Rifles of the White Death?" Just got mine in the mail Saturday - lots of good stuff about Finn rifles.

Thanks guys.
I'm really hung up on the Japanese rifles.

I don't have that book you mention, USMA-82. I have heard of it though. Been reading as much as I can on some net sites and forums. I wanted a 91/30 but I wanted a Finn too. What better than to have both in 1! Also wanted something different and this rifle fit it. I still like the looks of the M39 too

Ya, Scott. You couldn't resist huh? At least the M91 will eat cheap throw aways. The Arisaka's ammo is a different story.

 

[SKS Ray]

Are you sure that 91 has a scrubbed receiver, or was it what they call in the Finn Mosin world, a sneak? I've heard of these rifles they call sneaks, rifles that had no receiver stamp, but don't know what Finn models this pertains to. Still sooo much for me to learn about Finns and after almost a year i've already got 5.

 

[JonJ]

Are you sure that 91 has a scrubbed receiver, or was it what they call in the Finn Mosin world, a sneak? I've heard of these rifles they call sneaks, rifles that had no receiver stamp, but don't know what Finn models this pertains to. Still sooo much for me to learn about Finns and after almost a year i've already got 5.

From what little I know about Finn rifles, the "Sneaks" were M39's built in the 60's-70's.

The "P" series rifles were scrubbed and remarked but a small percentage were never restamped as they stopped the barrel lining process midstream. I've asked around and a scrubbed receiver on an M91 is not common.

 

[USMA-82]

Bowser talks about the "sneaks" in his book. The story was that after the Winter War and resulting treaties, the Finns agreed that SAKO would not produce any more rifles. SAKO then sold their factories to the Red Cross so the Russians wouldn't haul all the machinery back to the Motherland!

So when the Finns decided to crank out some more rifles in the 60's they left all manufacturer's names and logos off them - to sneak them in under the Russian's noses without blatantly violating the treaties.

 

[Nickle]

Jon, you sure that isn't an M24? Has the rear sight been remarked? And what marks are on the barrel? Is the end of the barrel stepped, or straight?

That gun looks almost identical to my M24. Mine has the Finnish sling swivels, though.

 

[JonJ]

It has a straight barrel.
Rear sight is struck on the left and Finn renumbered on the right.
The only barrel mark on the top of the barrel shank is the serial number. Left side above the wood line is the [SA]. Right side has the Russian sideways "K" in a circle.
Under the wood on the bottom of the shank and start of the barrel are numerous small proofs and such.
Muzzle end of the barrel has the small:
C.A.I. ST. ALB. VT.
M91 FINLND 7.62X54R
Import mark. That's not to say that it could have been mismarked by CAI

It's driving me nuts trying to figure this thing out.

 

[Nickle]

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinID.htm

That will ID it for you.

 

[JonJ]

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinID.htm

That will ID it for you.

I've checked the sight. The only scrubbed receiver he show's is a "P" Series. I can't verify that it does have a liner.
Here's a shot of the muzzle. It looks like a liner is there but on close inspection with a magnifying glass, it looks more like a bevel.

 

[JonJ]

Well the mystery is over. It is a "P" series M91 with a barrel liner. The "P's" were made in 1925, 26, & 27. The process of rebarreling was a controversy and they stopped production. The barrels were scrubbed, like mine but then remarked with the "P" markings. Mine must have been when they stopped production and it never got marked.
When the Winter War began, they needed rifles and the ones that had been stored away were built up and put into service.
Guess I got a nice rifle with a very interesting history.
There's a little blurb on them here:
http://www.mosinnagant.net/finland/Finn-Mosin-Nagant-M91.asp

 

[kingson]

Glad you figured it out. That's what I thought it was but wasn't sure. Glad that you like the guns, you will have to tell me how they shoot so that I can be jealous that I let the Finnish nagant get away. Enjoy

 

[JonJ]

Glad you figured it out. That's what I thought it was but wasn't sure. Glad that you like the guns, you will have to tell me how they shoot so that I can be jealous that I let the Finnish nagant get away. Enjoy

Once the temps get up a little, it'll be the first one I try out! I'm happy that I waited for a Finn and this one sure is nice

 

[USMA-82]

Jon:

Another tidbit from Bowser's book. Apparently, the Finn who was in charge of the rebarreling project was demoted when there were some complaints about the quality of the product. To add insult to injury, the government back-charged him for the value of the "bad" barrels.

Well along comes the Winter War, and of course the Finn government needs every rifle they can get their hands on, and sends the rifles with the bad barrels into battle.

The guy who was back-charged then sued the government after the war. He claimed that if the barrels were good enough for the army to use, they should have been acceptable in the first place. He won his case, and had to be paid back all the money he was charged years before!

 

[JonJ]

Thanks USMA. Quite interesting to say the least. From what I've been able to find, only 13,000 barrels were done this way in the 3 years of production.
Even the Finns couldn't escape government bureaucracy.

 

[Nickle]

Nice to see you figured it out. I myself have gotten partial to the Finns. I've been lucky to get mine cheap.

 

[JimR]

Finn rifles are the cream of the crop when picking out a Mosin. They are the hardest to find now that everyone seems to want to collect them. I'm glad I got all of mine years ago when they were cheap.

 

[JonJ]

It's amazing how the Finns have caught on. It also seems that there's a flood of them so they really aren't hard to find if you want to pay.
I'm happy that I got the one that I got. If I never buy another Finn, it's nice to know that I have a relatively rare one.