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2 FBI agents killed, 3 hurt in shooting while serving warrant in Florida

SHOCKNAWE said:
The mentality is keeping the problem in a smaller secure location as opposed to a gunfight in the grocery store parking lot.
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That mentality assumes there will be a gunfight, and picking the better location.

The other mentality hopes to avoid a gunfight by picking the time and place of the initial contact, and using tactics (not TACTICOOL, but actual tactics) that minimize chances of escalation.

Somedood coming out of the grocery store and loading them into his trunk presents a perfect opportunity to catch him off guard. Not by a vanload of agents screeching to a stop and jumping out with raid jackets and guns drawn, but by deception and subterfuge. Use your imagination here, and I'm sure you can imagine any number of ways that a suspect could be distracted, especially one accused to being a chomo.
 
connor said:
Simple possession is no mandatory minimum, max ten years, and you spend the sentence with other softies so you don't die your first time in the shower. Not exactly like he's facing the firing squad if they take him alive
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This is federal. There is a mandatory minimum, and it can apply to every single image for a total "minimum" of thousands of years.
 
KBCraig said:
That mentality assumes there will be a gunfight, and picking the better location.

The other mentality hopes to avoid a gunfight by picking the time and place of the initial contact, and using tactics (not TACTICOOL, but actual tactics) that minimize chances of escalation.

Somedood coming out of the grocery store and loading them into his trunk presents a perfect opportunity to catch him off guard. Not by a vanload of agents screeching to a stop and jumping out with raid jackets and guns drawn, but by deception and subterfuge. Use your imagination here, and I'm sure you can imagine any number of ways that a suspect could be distracted, especially one accused to being a chomo.
Click to expand...
No worries, they will learn

Gulag: Many Days, Many Lives | Days and Lives

gulaghistory.org gulaghistory.org
 
KBCraig said:
That mentality assumes there will be a gunfight, and picking the better location.

The other mentality hopes to avoid a gunfight by picking the time and place of the initial contact, and using tactics (not TACTICOOL, but actual tactics) that minimize chances of escalation.

Somedood coming out of the grocery store and loading them into his trunk presents a perfect opportunity to catch him off guard. Not by a vanload of agents screeching to a stop and jumping out with raid jackets and guns drawn, but by deception and subterfuge. Use your imagination here, and I'm sure you can imagine any number of ways that a suspect could be distracted, especially one accused to being a chomo.
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Agreed.
 
SHOCKNAWE said:
The mentality is keeping the problem in a smaller secure location as opposed to a gunfight in the grocery store parking lot.
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You would hope there wouldn't be if they caught the guy unawares .
Speaking for myself I would find that more desirable than going after the guy on his ground with possibly a shitload of weapons and maybe an ammo fort.
 
Reminds me of the infamous Miami FBI shooting. Agents came with revolvers, bad guys had mini-14s. Knew the perps were dangerous but went in without much additional planning, just a typical arrest. Incident became the battle cry for better weaponry and the 10mm adoption.

.
 
I was just stating the mentality behind going to the house, I don’t agree with that 100% but I can understand the logic behind it. There are a lot of instances where it might be the best play but the same amount as it not being the best play. There are many things LE does that could use a change of philosophy in my opinion, like tracking a drug dealer doing deal after to deal to build a case, maybe one of those deals results in a high school aged kid using for the first time and OD’ing and dying. It’s a tough line of work, and lots of times it’s incompetence from leadership that results in poor decisions being made
 
jhblaze1 said:
totally. I mean I'm also glad every time I hear about a cop getting ambushed and executed too because we all know that the actions of some bad apples make all cops bad. I sure hope some drugged out meth head shoots my cousin in the face during his next traffic stop cuz of that 9 year old girl that was pepper sprayed.

Definitely a win that some FBI agents trying to take down a child predator "got their clocks cleaned" cuz of Waco and Ruby Ridge 28/29 years ago. Hopefully those agents have wives and kids at home too. Maybe you should drive down and piss on their graves during the funeral.

idiot.
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Until the day comes that an LEO murders a member of your family
Idiot!
 
KBCraig said:
This is federal. There is a mandatory minimum, and it can apply to every single image for a total "minimum" of thousands of years.
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Simple possession of child pornography is punishable by up to ten years in federal prison, but does not carry a mandatory minimum term of imprisonment
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Page 15 (21 of the pdf)


I just wanna know if they recovered hunter's hard drive from the house or the perp was able destroy it before he died.
 
Tampa Bay Times: Two FBI agents fatally shot, three wounded while serving warrant in South Florida
...​
The gunman, not yet identified by the FBI, is believed to have monitored the approach of the agents with a doorbell camera and ambushed them through the unopened door with a hail of bullets from an assault-style rifle, law enforcement sources told the Miami Herald.​
...​

I predicted on the Tuesday before Thanksgiving
that webcams were going to cramp the FBI's style.

And that's a hell of a cramp. [angry]
 
KBCraig said:
That mentality assumes there will be a gunfight, and picking the better location.

The other mentality hopes to avoid a gunfight by picking the time and place of the initial contact, and using tactics (not TACTICOOL, but actual tactics) that minimize chances of escalation.

Somedood coming out of the grocery store and loading them into his trunk presents a perfect opportunity to catch him off guard. Not by a vanload of agents screeching to a stop and jumping out with raid jackets and guns drawn, but by deception and subterfuge. Use your imagination here, and I'm sure you can imagine any number of ways that a suspect could be distracted, especially one accused to being a chomo.
Click to expand...

Agree 100%.^^^^^^^

This tactic could have and should have been used at Waco and Ruby Ridge......but the government's intent in both incidents was not taking prisoners, it was showing force and conducted with complete disregard for life.

Even a criminal who's intent is to steal someone's wallet picks their "mark" and strikes at an opportune time when that mark is distracted.
 
Dadstoys said:
I still scratch my head at the hard on for door kicking.
Most of the time it would IMHO safer for the arresting party and any innocents to grab some guy coming out of the grocery store unaware and unprepared.
If I come across a bear den , I'm waiting for him to come out not crawling my dumb ass in there .
Far less babies get flash banged in their cribs that way too.
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What if he doesn't go down quietly at the store then you risk a gun fight and a car chase.
 
AHM said:
Tampa Bay Times: Two FBI agents fatally shot, three wounded while serving warrant in South Florida
...​
The gunman, not yet identified by the FBI, is believed to have monitored the approach of the agents with a doorbell camera and ambushed them through the unopened door with a hail of bullets from an assault-style rifle, law enforcement sources told the Miami Herald.​
...​

I predicted on the Tuesday before Thanksgiving
that webcams were going to cramp the FBI's style.

And that's a hell of a cramp. [angry]
Click to expand...
Nancy Grace on Fox just said they know it was an assault style weapon because the holes in the door were " yuuugge".
 
Anything hooked to the Internet can be monitored, spied through. This includes your phone, computer, cameras - ANYTHING. Did you know that your landline phones can be used as microphones while still being on the hook.
 
AHM said:
Tampa Bay Times: Two FBI agents fatally shot, three wounded while serving warrant in South Florida
...​
The gunman, not yet identified by the FBI, is believed to have monitored the approach of the agents with a doorbell camera and ambushed them through the unopened door with a hail of bullets from an assault-style rifle, law enforcement sources told the Miami Herald.​
...​

I predicted on the Tuesday before Thanksgiving
that webcams were going to cramp the FBI's style.

And that's a hell of a cramp. [angry]
Click to expand...
So, what are they coming for next? AR's, your cameras, or both?


You'd think knowing the subject of your warrant having cams/security system/etc would be part of doing due diligence before a raid.
 
jkelly1229 said:
What if he doesn't go down quietly at the store then you risk a gun fight and a car chase.
Click to expand...

Do you know how easily 99.9999999999% of people can be successfully "bum rushed", physically subdued and captured? All it takes is some careful surveillance, a few trained ( and in shape men and women ) and vitually ANYONE can be captured without incident.
The Secret Service trains this way. Look at the physique on most of them....., strong, agile, mentally alert, completely aware everything around them and their charge. They are an elite group and very capable.

Then go look at the average fbi agent, city cop, sheriff's deputy and most state police officers.....no comparison, mentally or physically.

One problem is most cops are severely impatient.
 
Uzi2 said:
Do you know how easily 99.9999999999% of people can be successfully "bum rushed", physically subdued and captured? All it takes is some careful surveillance, a few trained ( and in shape men or women ) and vitually ANYONE can be captured without incident.
The Secret Service trains this way. Look at the physique on most of them....., strong, agile, mentally alert, completely aware everything around them and their charge. They are an elite group and very capable.

Then go look at the average fbi agent, city cop, sheriff's deputy and most state police officers.....no comparison, mentally or physically.

One problem is most cops are severely impatient.
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So what lol you can bum rush me...but if the agent is a 5'5 120 pound woman and I'm 6'3 265... that won't do her much good. Then if I hit her that starts a problem in a parking log

I get your point that it's probably easier to do it out of the home but you need to do it where people aren't.

Property damage is costly people getting killed is worse.
 
Also, picking up on an attack and reacting isn't an ambush, even if you shoot first. I hate when journos sprinkle thesaurus.com into articles, fancy words in your run of the mill article aren't gonna win a prize. Misusing words doesn't make you better at your job.
to attack by surprise from a hidden place
Click to expand...
An ambush is a long-established military tactic in which combatants take advantage of concealment or the element of surprise to attack unsuspecting enemy combatants from concealed positions
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Shooting through a door that is about to be kicked in doesn't quite fit either definition. Just because they were caught off guard and out of position doesn't mean it's an ambush.
But "feds good pedo bad" so we can get away with using a sinister sounding word like "ambush" to make your story sound mo' betta. Words have meaning but journos are pretty much doing all they can to wreck that these days.
 
jkelly1229 said:
No he's right it's a tragedy for those families. Just because we're pissed at the gov doesn't mean we should be rooting for a pedophile.
Click to expand...

Regardless of what the perp is, it's definitely a tragedy for the agents' families. The one agent was a wife and a mom. Seemed to be a good person and spent time teaching youth. Even putting on full tinfoil and taking the position that the FBI did not need to be there, those poor agents and their families paid the price. Oh well, the prejudice from knee-jerk NES ACAB crowd is pretty predictable. I'll admit that I'm inclined to be prejudiced against over-use of paramilitary units like the HRT, but I have many friends and family in law enforcement at local, state, and federal levels. Each and every one of them are good people and always exercised reasonable restraint and common sense in their jobs.

Odd that I have yet to see any info regarding the perp. He just randomly snapped or was there more to it?
 
Mountain said:
Odd that I have yet to see any info regarding the perp. He just randomly snapped or was there more to it?
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like i said - it does not add up. but, may be eventually some info will sneak out.
monitoring cameras and shooting people through the door - it is quite extreme. especially if he did not know who and why was coming.
 
Agree, tragedy for the families. Unfortunately the events of past few years have completely destroyed the credibility of the FBI. Labelling someone a pedo automatically generates hatred towards him and makes anything the feds do ok. Oldest trick in the book. The usual characters here jump right to 'how can you defend the scumbag' but I'm still stuck on who says he is a pedo? I don't believe a word of anything these days, especially if it is coming from the feds. The reaction by this guy doesnt seem to add up to me.
 

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