2.8grn of Bullseye

[supton]

is a small amount! I have not put that into a 38spl case yet, but I did drop 2.8grn into my scale, and it looks wicked small. Question: I've never read that Bullseye is position sensitive; is it?

I did get an RCBS powder trickler. Would I be the only person contemplating measuring out this 2.8grn with a trickler? I thought about making a 0.3cc dipper, but given how most max charges that I read in the tables are less than 0.5grn from 2.7grn or 2.8grn, I'm a bit hesistant to trust the dipper, at least initially; plus, if I wanted to adjust the charge up or down, I'd have to adjust the dipper, and/or use the trickler... You get the idea.

[For reference, I'm thinking of shooting like 10 rounds a week of 38spl wadcutters in a Ruger LCR. I don't have a progressive, just a Lee Hand Press, for now. We're talking small scale operation here. Bullseye, CCI 500's for primers, Winchester brass, some 148grn DEWC (maybe some copper plated ones, if I find 'em), Lee Hand Press, Lee Ram Prime, Lee carbide 3 die set, RCBS Powder Trickler and 5-10 scale, plus some 6" calipers that read to 0.001". Along with The ABC's of Reloading, Lee's Modern Reloading, second edition, this site, youtube and a few other sites online. And the local reloaders at my gun range.]

Also, I have an RCBS 5-10 scale. I'm thinking of adding a bit of masking tape to the zero point, and drawing in +/-0.1 and 1 grain indications. Mostly so that, when a thrown charge is not exactly correctly, I can guage how off it is. But, will that be true at 100grn as at 1grn? [IOW, will the deflection from zero be the same for a 1grn error, regardless of whether I am measuring 1grn, 10grn or 100grn?] I'm a little surprised that bit isn't already on there; if it's not exactly at zero, well, how much is one millimeter off really worth?

 

[IPSC_DRL]

Hmmm, I don't see that recipe in their current reloading guide. Is this a reduced load?

http://glarp.atk.com/2010/2010_Catalogs/AlliantPowderReloadersGuide.pdf

 

[PixelPusher]

If you are only loading up 10 or even 20 round a week I would just hand measure each load. If you get one that is high or low dump it back and throw it again. My Lyman M55 thows bullseye very well and will usually just check every 10th charge.

But then again I tend to load 100-200 .38/.357 at a sitting.

Hope this helps.

 

[RKG]

2.7 grains of Bullseye pushing a 148 grain wadcutter or a 158 grain SWC has been a standard target load for .38 Special since the beginning of time.

Using the smaller bore cylinder in an RCBS Uniflow, this charge measures easily and consistently. There is no indication of position sensitivity, temperature sensitivity, or sensitivity to anything else except an occasional flinch. I have literally loaded and shot tens of thousands of rounds with this load.

 

[supton]

Hmmm, I don't see that recipe in their current reloading guide. Is this a reduced load?

http://glarp.atk.com/2010/2010_Catalogs/AlliantPowderReloadersGuide.pdf

First, thanks for the link; I hadn't thought to look there.

Second, my impression is that 2.7 or 2.8grn for 148grn lead WC is something of a universal standard. My Lee Modern Reloading (second edition, 2003) doesn't list primer, but has, for some reason, two versions: 2.6grn starting, to 2.8 max, for 15,900psi, OAL 1.180, 815fps; and 2.7grn starting, 2.7max, for 14,600psi, 1.180 OAL, 785fps.

My green The Complete Reloading Manual for the .38 Special (2004) lists the following:
-Hornady 148grn DEWC, #10308, for Bullseye, 2.1grn is 550fps, 2.4grn is 600fps, 2.6rn is 650fps, 2.8grn is 700fps, and 3.0grn is max load at 760fps, no primer given.
-Speer 148grn "38 HB-WC" (which I'm guessing should have a different recipe than non-hollowbase WC) lists 2.8grn for 741fps, and 3.1grn for max load, at 799fps, CCI 500 primer, seat flush with case for OAL (so 1.155"?).
-Lyman #35863, 148 grn Linotype (looks like WC to me), 1.152" OAL, 2.4grn starting for 664fps and 8,400CUP; max is 3.8grn for 950fps and 16,100CUP, both loads using CCI 500 primer and measured from a 4" vented barrel, Federal case trimmed to 1.149".
-RCBS 38-148-WC, 3.5grn for 788fps, 4.0grn max for 904fps, CCI 500 primer, S&W Model 14
-It gives Alliant Bullseye data for 148grn LWC as max load, 2.8grn for 815fps, at 15,900psi, no other data.

Oddly enough, that link you gave lists RCBS 82077 bullet mould, 147grn, in the 38spl area, for Cowboy Action Shooting. When I look that up, it's a 9mm FN (or Flat Nose), which I guess, since it's lead, might work in a slightly larger barrel, 0.356" versus the nominal 0.358". Regardless, 9mm runs higher pressures than 38spl, so I'm a bit hesitant to use that 3.5grn. Also, the OAL is given as 1.530", which makes it look to me like it's 9mm data listed in the 38spl catagory. Maybe it's some load that actually works ok for CAS? Scrolling down, I guess under regular loads, I do find 148grn Speer HBWC, loaded flush with CCI 500 primers as max load of 3.1grn for 799fps. So that data checks out.

What I need now to do is to go look up what Reloads N' More, of Stoneham, MA uses for a bullet mould, as I've got 500 of their bullets in 148grn WC. I thought it odd that they didn't list that on the box, but I figured, WC is WC, isn't it? The data listed thus far seems to belie that, though. They don't look like Lyman's Linotype ones, I'll have to go find out what they look like (three grooves, center is lubed, two outer grooves located near the ends, small shoulder which looks to be there for ease of insertion into the case; flat ends, no center "bump" like on some WC's).

Edit: looks like Reloads N' More uses Magma moulds; the DEWC's I got are P/N 38-148 WC DBB SGG, as shown here: http://www.magmaengineering.com/PDF/BBOct132008b.pdf Of course, no reload data given.

 

[supton]

Ok, I put in a DEWC into my scale; I measured 144.25grn. I have to move up or down 0.2grn to get about a millimeter of "off" from the zero indicator. Interesting.

 

[supton]

Ok, I remeasured. That prior number is wrong; I eyeballed it rather than measured. I measure about 0.080 for +/-0.1grn range, for 0.040" off zero for a 0.1grn error. But at 0.5grn off I get about 0.030" per 0.1grn (about 0.150" movement), and for 1grn off I get 0.285" off (for 0.029" per 0.1grn). So, the scale is sensitive, but if it matters, then it has to be put dead onto the line.

[Note: I measured by not going from zero but across the +/- numbers. So, I measured across +/-0.1grn, which was 0.080" total, over 0.2grn. +/-0.5grn was 0.303", and +/-1grn, which is about the max amount of error allowed by the scale, is 0.570".]

[I'm not sure why the +/-0.1grn marks are off; but, it's pretty hard to measure pencil lines at these levels. Point being, if the scale is off from zero by a mm, it's about 0.1 grain of error, which is probably ok for rifle loads (if I ever do those), and probably a good error for pistol loads.]

 

[budman46]

supton,

paranoia led me to avoid small charges of b'eye in tall cases...a double charge is nearly impossible to determine by eyeballing. i use powders with similar burning rates (such as red dot) that bulk up enough with a similar weight so that a double would be evident.

my favorite powder measure is rcbs's 'lil dandy; its fixed volume rotors handle my handgun reloading and i use a rotor that delivers 17 gr of 2400 for my cast bullet milsurp rifle loads. the rest are powdered with rcbs's uni-flow, a similar old pacific measure or the dispensers on my dillons.

budman

ignorance is fixable, stupidity is forever...

 

[EddieCoyle]

2.7 grains of Bullseye pushing a 148 grain wadcutter or a 158 grain SWC has been a standard target load for .38 Special since the beginning of time.

Using the smaller bore cylinder in an RCBS Uniflow, this charge measures easily and consistently. There is no indication of position sensitivity, temperature sensitivity, or sensitivity to anything else except an occasional flinch. I have literally loaded and shot tens of thousands of rounds with this load.

This.

 

[NavelOfficer]

These small charges are exactly why the .38 Special is prone to being overcharged and requires extra attention. Personally, I have charged .38 Specials up seven times or more with similar small charges before it overflows, so unless you use strict visual confirmations of charges (especially appropriate when using a single-stage press set up), you could easily double, triple charge a case and still not see the powder in the case from an angle. Take your .223 Rem and double charge it; powder will be pouring all over the floor!
As a rule (I use a single-stage press, too), I set all my charged cases in a tray and, with a good light source, verify equal charges in every case. Incidentally, I used a Lyman Handi-Press for three or four years and thousands of pistol/rifle rounds.

 

[DukeInFlorida]

I agree. If you are going to be loading ANY cartridge with a single station press, please use a "loading block". Place charged cases (loaded with powder, but no bullet seated yet) in the loading block, and visually inspect each and every one BEFORE setting bullets into place.

At the other end of double charges is the SQUIB round, where the powder gets missed altogether.

SQUIBS are especially dangerous, since a novice shooter will sometimes shrug the light pop off as some anomaly, rotate the cylinder, and fire a live round into the bullet that is STUCK in your barrel..... SQUIB rounds will always wedge in your barrel, and must be removed with a wooden dowel, or some rod softer than the barrel.

If it doesn't go BANG! and only goes pop...... STOP, and check the barrel......

By carefully inspecting charged cases in a loading block before seating bullets, you will totally eliminate both SQUIB and double charged rounds.

Safe Reloading!

Some examples of loading blocks:

Heck! You could even take a 2X6 or 2X8, and drill holes, and make your own for free from scrap.

These small charges are exactly why the .38 Special is prone to being overcharged and requires extra attention. Personally, I have charged .38 Specials up seven times or more with similar small charges before it overflows, so unless you use strict visual confirmations of charges (especially appropriate when using a single-stage press set up), you could easily double, triple charge a case and still not see the powder in the case from an angle. Take your .223 Rem and double charge it; powder will be pouring all over the floor!
As a rule (I use a single-stage press, too), I set all my charged cases in a tray and, with a good light source, verify equal charges in every case. Incidentally, I used a Lyman Handi-Press for three or four years and thousands of pistol/rifle rounds.

 

[supton]

I guess I will have to change, on the basis of good advice. The reason why I wasn't using the loading blocks for charging was precisely because of the fear of double charges! I figured, if I was loading up 50 rounds (although, I guess I could do just 10 at a time), moving the funnel around for each round would be too easy to forget to move the funnel or to miss a shell; plus, 2.7 grains didn't strike me as something I could visually guage, charged cartridge to charged cartridge. I'm not using a powder measure, after all.

Instead, I've been putting 5 bullets on the bench, next to the scale; and taking one sized, belled and primed from my (one) loading block and setting next to my scale. I then toss a couple of grains into the scale (don't have a 0.3cc scoop yet), trickle up to the 2.7grain level, then dump that in and immediately seating one of the 5 bullets. Charged and seated round goes back into the block. Grab a second sized, belled and primed cartridge, set next to scale, etc.

Without a powder measure the process takes forever. But if I get interrupted, all I have to do is stop--I'm not left with a loading block half-charged. Or fully charged but not seated. If I have to get up, all I have to do is dump the powder that's in the scale or the cartridge back into the trickler, and I'm off--although it's probably just as much work to finish that one cartridge.

 

[WanMan99]

+1 on the charging blocks w/ a single stage. I have used 3.4 gr of bullseye with 158 gr LSWC for the past 500 rounds and each one goes bang (sharply in my S&W 642 snubby).
Be safe and check each charged case.... It is possible for a double charge when using Bullseye in .38 cases as the volume is low and the case can accomodate a double charge without overflowing. I am a fan of Bullseye, I use it in .38, .9mm luger, .45acp and soon to be in .40 after Christmas!

 

[NavelOfficer]

If you have adequate lighting, there should be no problem detecting inconsistent charges in a trayful of cases. Even with my poor eyesight, a double charge, no charge, or other defect is readily detected. My biggest problem with charges in a tray is my wife coming along and watering a potted plant that used to be above my bench...no more!
...no more potted plants near the reloading bench, that is!

 

[twogunwilly]

I keep all my primed and belled brass upside down in the loading block. The only time they are upright is when the bullet is seated.

 

[supton]

What I've been doing is cleaning (by hand, no tumbler) and checking for cracks, decap/size, and put into block mouth-up. Then clean pockets and put upside down. Bell, and put back in mouth up. Prime, and back in upside down. Then charging/seating (see above), one at a time, and back into the block, bullet up. This method lets me get interrupted (kids out of bed, phone, whatever), and I know exactly where I left off (save charging/seating). It also gives good visual confirmation on each step.

 

[DukeInFlorida]

I don't know where I read it, but the human eye is supposed to be able to detect differences in size/height/length (whatever) to about +/- .002

You would be able to detect a double charge.

Use the loading blocks, and avoid the squib, which is the one that will most likely ruin your day.

 

[NavelOfficer]

Agree with DiM...get a proper procedure down and you'll be okay.

 

[RKG]

For what it may be worth, here is my case charging routine:

Primed and ready to charge cases are loose in a box to my left. Powder measure is in front of me. Loading blocks are to the right.

Pick up a case from the left. Up-end it and tap it lightly on the bench. Charge the case and put it in the loading block.

I pour out and weigh the charge in every 20th case charged, just as a hedge against the powder measure setting wandering.

When all cases are charged, I then pass a flashlight over the cases standing at attention in the loading blocks. I'm not looking for anything other than a gross disparity.

This practice has stood me in good stead for more years than I'm willing to admit to.

 

[Uncle Ogre]

I agree. If you are going to be loading ANY cartridge with a single station press, please use a "loading block".

...

Heck! You could even take a 2X6 or 2X8, and drill holes, and make your own for free from scrap.

When I load on the single stage I always use home-made loading blocks, but my "50 round" blocks are drilled to 55 holes (11x5). I load by column, and use the extra holes to "index" the cases by one column as they complete the current operation. This lets you use a single loading block as both infeed and outfeed from the press. You still need a consistent system, and you have to be faithful to it, but I find it to be faster than separate infeed & outfeed blocks.

 

[TonyT]

I have used 2.7 to 2.8 gr. Bullseye behind the Remington 148 gr. LHBWC since the late 1950's. Back then I used an old Lyman powder measure while currently I use a Dillon 550 with the extra small powder bar. Bullseye meters very uniformly in my equipment.

 

[bullseye]

+1 on the charging blocks w/ a single stage. I have used 3.4 gr of bullseye with 158 gr LSWC for the past 500 rounds and each one goes bang (sharply in my S&W 642 snubby).
Be safe and check each charged case.... It is possible for a double charge when using Bullseye in .38 cases as the volume is low and the case can accomodate a double charge without overflowing. I am a fan of Bullseye, I use it in .38, .9mm luger, .45acp and soon to be in .40 after Christmas!

It's not only Bullseye, but any type of load that requires a small weight of powder. Look at Titegroup, same thing, a little goes a long way. Maybe I'm new at this ( since I just recently started reloading a couple months ago) but I do one at a time when I charge the cartridge. I decap in a whole lot, but after that I place powder and bullet one at a time and if I really want to double check, I weigh each round at the end to insure their all pretty much the same. Only take 10 minutes or so to weigh a couple hundred.

 

[WanMan99]

It's not only Bullseye, but any type of load that requires a small weight of powder. Look at Titegroup, same thing, a little goes a long way. Maybe I'm new at this ( since I just recently started reloading a couple months ago) but I do one at a time when I charge the cartridge. I decap in a whole lot, but after that I place powder and bullet one at a time and if I really want to double check, I weigh each round at the end to insure their all pretty much the same. Only take 10 minutes or so to weigh a couple hundred.

I usually reload .38 in groups of 200 (this is the most I can do at once and still maintain focus) using my single stage with 4, 50 slot charging blocks. I clean, decap and prime as a seperate function on a different day(that way when I go to load it is just flaring, charging, seating and crimping). I use the Lee autodisk on my breech loader, this allows the case to be charged at the same time the case mouth is flared (ever so slightly). The cases are loaded into the charge blocks and then I visually inspect all of them for uniformity, and empty out random cases for a quick weight check. After I am satisfied that all is well I run them through the seating and crimping (2 more steps) dies.
I run my 9mm and .45 through my 4 hole turret that has an attached Lee auto disk. I do not use the turret to prime the cases (can't stand the priming setup on the turret, but love the setup on the breech single stage). Like the .38 I clean, decap and prime the 9mm and .45 on my single stage in a seperate evolution ( I maintain a large quantity of "ready to go" primed cases for when I need supplies for the range).
Making sure the case has the correct powder charge is the one most important step that should not be taken lightly. Making sure the case is not damaged or is questionable should be sorted out in the decap, cleaning and priming phase.

 

[Arnaki]

Hi:
Over the years I've used about a grain of "Dacron" over the powder charge to keep the powder against the primer end of the case. Stuff it in with the ereaser end of a pencil. You can buy polyfil pillow stuffing at Walmart etc. A lifetime supply will only cost a few dollars.
Arnaki

 

[supton]

I've heard of using Dacron (or similar) to take up space; but last night, as I was loading up a batch of WC's, it struck me as why it's a non-issue: the WC is seated so deeply that the case is about half-full anyhow. That is, the amount of space in the cartridge after the bullet is seated is likely to be half-full. Next time I'll try to measure it. Anyhow, using Dacron seems to be overkill in a 38spl WC--there's only about fifty years' experience in proving that it works just fine, as it is. Dacron is useful for reduced rifle loads, from what little reading I've done.

I need to get a decent digital scale at some point; but "decent" and "cheap" don't seem to go together. All the reviews I've read online on the scales I'd be likely to buy (anything sub-$100) seems to indicate that they either don't hold zero, or they get drifty as battery goes to zero--and they generally eat batteries. I drew extra lines on my beam scale, to indicate +/-0.1, +/-0.5 and +/-1 grain offsets, so that I could attempt to make match 22lr's (well, maybe not match but at least find weak rounds). But that method probably won't work with loaded ammunition, as I'm not sure that brass weight is that constant, plus the error in any given cast bullet--not when you're looking for a 1 grain overcharge. Maybe double charges would be detectable; but I'd have to measure a bunch of cases first, and then not mix brass (or determine that they are all a grain or so similar). Maybe one could detect a 3 grain error repeatable, I dunno.

Maybe I'd charge 50 rounds at once--if it didn't take an hour to charge 50 rounds. It was about an hour ten to charge and seat 50 rounds last night. I really need to make a powder scoop one of these days (or just give in and buy the darn scoop set from Lee). Since I measure each charge, the seating process is a nice concentration break.

 

[DukeInFlorida]

This!

Dacron is useful for reduced rifle loads, from what little reading I've done.

Agreed, but.............

Yes, there's no such thing as a sub $100 digital scale. Even the balance beam scales, which are fine, cost more than that, typically. I'm not talking about deals on good quality usable used equipment. If you can get a deal on a $200 digital scale for $50, go for it.

But stay away from cheap digital scales that run from batteries. If it doesn't have a power adapter, walk on by.

DO NOT (in my humble opinion) get the Lee dippers. They give you one with every Lee die set, and I have argued endlessly with John Lee about how they present the dipper in the die kit. That one dipper is supposed to be (in their view) the right volume for any powder for that caliber. OK, so that doesn't make any sense at all.

Here' the problem with even going to the complete set: You'd be stuck with increments/graduations in volume that hop and jump past your target powder weight. Isn't it much better to just get a completely adjustable powder measure that allows you to fine tune weight to the .1 grain, irregardless of what powder it is?

There are a LOT of adjustable powder measures on the market, and having one should be a part of every serious reloaders set of equipment.

One of the most trusted and reliable old horses for adjustable powder measures is the RCBS Uniflow:

http://www.google.com/products/cata...og_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCIQ8wIwAA#

They are cheap, and very reliable.

Note: They come from the factory with a LARGE "Metering Cylinder", which is fine for larger rifle cartridges, since it's volume will handle 27+ grains of powder. However, for pistol amounts of powder, you have to purchase the SMALL Metering Cylinder, which is very easy to change out. The small cylinder will handle from .1 grains up to about 29 grains of powder. Details here: http://www.rcbs.com/downloads/instructions/QC_Powder_Measure_Instructions.pdf

I need to get a decent digital scale at some point; but "decent" and "cheap" don't seem to go together. All the reviews I've read online on the scales I'd be likely to buy (anything sub-$100) seems to indicate that they either don't hold zero, or they get drifty as battery goes to zero--and they generally eat batteries. I drew extra lines on my beam scale, to indicate +/-0.1, +/-0.5 and +/-1 grain offsets, so that I could attempt to make match 22lr's (well, maybe not match but at least find weak rounds). But that method probably won't work with loaded ammunition, as I'm not sure that brass weight is that constant, plus the error in any given cast bullet--not when you're looking for a 1 grain overcharge. Maybe double charges would be detectable; but I'd have to measure a bunch of cases first, and then not mix brass (or determine that they are all a grain or so similar). Maybe one could detect a 3 grain error repeatable, I dunno.

Maybe I'd charge 50 rounds at once--if it didn't take an hour to charge 50 rounds. It was about an hour ten to charge and seat 50 rounds last night. I really need to make a powder scoop one of these days (or just give in and buy the darn scoop set from Lee). Since I measure each charge, the seating process is a nice concentration break.

 

[TY43215]

is a small amount! I have not put that into a 38spl case yet, but I did drop 2.8grn into my scale, and it looks wicked small. Question: I've never read that Bullseye is position sensitive; is it?

I did get an RCBS powder trickler. Would I be the only person contemplating measuring out this 2.8grn with a trickler? I thought about making a 0.3cc dipper, but given how most max charges that I read in the tables are less than 0.5grn from 2.7grn or 2.8grn, I'm a bit hesistant to trust the dipper, at least initially; plus, if I wanted to adjust the charge up or down, I'd have to adjust the dipper, and/or use the trickler... You get the idea.

[For reference, I'm thinking of shooting like 10 rounds a week of 38spl wadcutters in a Ruger LCR. I don't have a progressive, just a Lee Hand Press, for now. We're talking small scale operation here. Bullseye, CCI 500's for primers, Winchester brass, some 148grn DEWC (maybe some copper plated ones, if I find 'em), Lee Hand Press, Lee Ram Prime, Lee carbide 3 die set, RCBS Powder Trickler and 5-10 scale, plus some 6" calipers that read to 0.001". Along with The ABC's of Reloading, Lee's Modern Reloading, second edition, this site, youtube and a few other sites online. And the local reloaders at my gun range.]

Also, I have an RCBS 5-10 scale. I'm thinking of adding a bit of masking tape to the zero point, and drawing in +/-0.1 and 1 grain indications. Mostly so that, when a thrown charge is not exactly correctly, I can guage how off it is. But, will that be true at 100grn as at 1grn? [IOW, will the deflection from zero be the same for a 1grn error, regardless of whether I am measuring 1grn, 10grn or 100grn?] I'm a little surprised that bit isn't already on there; if it's not exactly at zero, well, how much is one millimeter off really worth?

Little late to the party but:

When I shot PPC, my load was 148gr HBWC swaged bullet from Zero, any 38spl case, Federal Small Pistol primers, and 2.5gr Bullseye. I shot it from a custom PPC revolver with a 6" Douglas Barrel and got excellent accuracy out to the 50 yards I needed.

I hand primed all the brass and used a RCBS Little Dandy for powder drops. My press at the time was a single stage RCBS Jr (Still have the press). Another option is the Lee powder measures (scoops) they work well for these small charges too.


Edit to add link Little Dandy

CHART

 

[supton]

I have thought about the Lee dippers, but agree on the charge being thrown is "fixed". Going up/down 0.1 grain, well, no go with the dippers. I need to get around to making my own, with spent cases; but have not gotten around to it. I still want to weigh charges, I don't shoot that much it should be that much of a hindrance to weigh each one. So, it's not high on the list, since I'm managing thus far (throw some, trickle up).

Will keep an eye out for a decent digital scale. All things in due time. Powder meter also, will take the RCBS recommendation to heart and keep it in mind. Just not ready yet for that purchase.

2.5 grains of Bullseye? That's the lowest amount I've heard thus far for 148grn WC. I think I've seen 2.6 (don't have manual right at the moment, or I'd go look). I'm guessing it's safe (it's not like it's one-half or something), but I don't have enough behind me to know it's safe. [Although it oughta be in my snub--I wonder if a primer would be enough for a 110 grain round? No I'm not going to experiment to find out!]