1986 FBI Miami shootout recreation vid

[DickWanner]

Not sure if it's been posted here before or not, first time I've seen it.



Makes me want to re-think my using a PF-9 as a daily carry. Either that or it solidifies my thought that 7+1 rounds of 9mm is only to be used to get me the f*ck out of the situation and nothing more. I might just go back to carrying 26 rounds of 10mm

 

[Preachers Sheets]

7 rounds of 9mm is a good deal of power. It's usally over in mere seconds and after a round or two. If I was in crap that deep where 7 rounds of 9mm wasnt enough I'd be ankle deep in my a$$ looking for a Mossberg 500 or AR-15.

 

[Larry Legend]

Jeebus. How many times did that guy with the Mini 14 (or not) get shot!?

 

[DickWanner]

7 rounds of 9mm is a good deal of power. It's usally over in mere seconds and after a round or two. If I was in crap that deep where 7 rounds of 9mm wasnt enough I'd be ankle deep in my a$$ looking for a Mossberg 500 or AR-15.

It is a good deal of power no doubt, but there have been incidents where police have put >15rds of .40S&W COM into a perp before they go down. Some have been on drugs, some have not. I'm not saying to leave the house ready for WWIII, but it gives good food for thought.

Jeebus. How many times did that guy with the Mini 14 (or not) get shot!?

There are many reports and articles on the incident. He was hit with several 9mm, .38, and OO buck but wouldn't go down. Makes me wanna keep my second AR locked in my truck...

 

[Palladin]

What I carry is fine for a chance everyday encounter. You're not going up against guys with full auto Mini 14's .
If I'm ccw, in a bank, etc. , and these guys come walking in...I'm on the floor doing whatever they say.

 

[atilla]

Jeebus. How many times did that guy with the Mini 14 (or not) get shot!?

wikipedia says he took 12 rounds before going down, six to drop his partner.

bonus: toxicology tests were clean--dudes weren't even drugged up.

 

[DickWanner]

What I carry is fine for a chance everyday encounter. You're not going up against guys with full auto Mini 14's .
If I'm ccw, in a bank, etc. , and these guys come walking in...I'm on the floor doing whatever they say.

That is completely acceptable given the circumstances, but what do you do when they start shooting hostages? This and other incidents like it should serve as educational tools about what extremes could happen so that we can mentally prepare ourselves. I doubt anyone is going to go out and change their CCW habits because of this video, but I couldn't blame anyone if they did. No one ever said they went into a firefight and had too much ammo.

Also, this made for TV segment showed him will a full-auto Mini-14, but the one he actually used was semi-auto.

 

[TheRoland]

Knowing that 12 rounds, some of up full-house 9mm, didn't stop this guy is partially why I'm not wild about my 5 rounds of .38 +p. But I'm not the FBI, and I don't go looking for trouble like they have to.

 

[Erebus]

That clip is from the movie "In the Line of Duty: The F.B.I. Murders". Michal Gross(the dad on Family Ties) played one of the bad guys and Ronnie Cox(Dick Jones in the original Robocop) played one of the FBI agents. It's dated as it was made in 1988 and wasn't very high budget as it was a made fo TV movie but I saw it and I would recommend it since it's based on the real case. I liked it.

The movie is avaliable on DVD from Amazon for $7. I will pick up a copy.

Here's a link to the Wikipedia page about the shootout.

From Wikipedia

Weaponry and injuries
Agents

* Richard Manauzzi: lost control of weapon in the initial vehicle collision, no shots fired. Minor injuries from shotgun pellets.[7]
* Gordon McNeill: S&W M19-3 .357 Magnum revolver, 6 rounds .38 Special +P fired. Seriously injured by .223 gunshot wounds to the right hand and neck
* Edmundo Mireles: Remington M870 12 gauge shotgun, 5 rounds 00 buckshot fired, .357 Magnum revolver (S&W, model unknown), 6 rounds .38 Special +P fired. Seriously injured by a .223 gunshot wound to the left forearm.
* Gilbert Orrantia: S&W (model unknown) .357 Magnum revolver, 12 rounds .38 Special +P fired. Injured by shrapnel and debris produced by a .223 bullet near miss.
* John Hanlon: S&W Model 36 .38 Special revolver, 2-inch barrel (5 rounds .38 Special +P fired). Seriously injured by .223 gunshot wounds to the right hand and groin.
* Benjamin Grogan: S&W M459 9mm pistol, 9 rounds fired. Killed by a .223 gunshot wound to the chest.
* Jerry Dove: S&W M459 9mm pistol, 20 rounds fired. Killed by two .223 gunshot wounds to the head.
* Ronald Risner: S&W M459 9mm pistol, 13-14 rounds fired, S&W (model unknown) .38 Special revolver, 1 round .38 Special +P fired. Uninjured.

Suspects

* William Matix: S&W M3000 12 gauge shotgun, 1 round #6 shot fired. Killed after being shot six times.
* Michael Platt: Ruger Mini-14 .223 Remington carbine, at least 42 rounds fired, S&W M586 .357 Magnum revolver, 3 rounds fired, Dan Wesson .357 Magnum revolver, 3 rounds fired. Killed after being shot 12 times.

 

[S. Kelly]

Highly dedicated and motivated individuals will soak up numerous rounds and won't stop until a CNS/brain shot is made.

 

[TheRoland]

Highly dedicated and motivated individuals will soak up numerous rounds and won't stop until a CNS/brain shot is made.

I'm sure this has been studied; did the FBI know this, ie, Was this a training issue that could be fixed? Or could nobody make the shot due to movement, stress, target size, cover, etc?

 

[Woodstock]

Platt took a number of body hits that would have been fatal in minutes, but he still had time to shoot the agents. Mireles finally drilled both suspects in the head with his S&W. His left arm had been blasted wide open by the .223. This event inspired a huge study of ammo effectiveness by the FBI, which led to the development of the 10 mm. and eventually the .40. Also, FBI cars now carry long guns and sub-guns.

 

[securityboy]

I'm sure this has been studied; did the FBI know this, ie, Was this a training issue that could be fixed? Or could nobody make the shot due to movement, stress, target size, cover, etc?

This shooting is still a major discussion in much of LE training, it has been studied and restudied countless times. Training was considerably different prior to this shooting and changed due in large part to this shooting. Was "undergunned" part of the equation, certainly, but there were a number of training/procedure issues that were likely more pivital in this situation.

 

[Palladin]

That is completely acceptable given the circumstances, but what do you do when they start shooting hostages? This and other incidents like it should serve as educational tools about what extremes could happen so that we can mentally prepare ourselves. I doubt anyone is going to go out and change their CCW habits because of this video, but I couldn't blame anyone if they did. No one ever said they went into a firefight and had too much ammo.

Also, this made for TV segment showed him will a full-auto Mini-14, but the one he actually used was semi-auto.

Depending on which carry piece, I'll have (in gun) 5-38spl; 11- 45acp; 13-.40SW In any situation where they start executing hostages, the closest BG is getting a head shot. If I"m going to go down, they're comin with me.
I'll have at least 10rds add'l on me also.
just sayin'

 

[sportycliff]

David Soul? Hutch is now a bad guy? Don't give up on us baby!

 

[M1911]

Well, if you expect to go up against two very motivated former soldiers with combat experience, carrying a Mini-14 and shotgun, then yes, I'd like something bigger than a 7+1 9mm. But how likely do you think that scenario is?

 

[Kenny474]

Pretty rough shootout, though the Hollywood shootout is still a bit worse in my opinion.

 

[ooglassoo]

What I want to know is what kind of ammo they were using? And I want to know where all there bullets hit. I just think with modern self defense ammo an a g19 with 15+1 is more then enough fire power IMO.

 

[Kenny474]

What I want to know is what kind of ammo they were using? And I want to know where all there bullets hit. I just think with modern self defense ammo an a g19 with 15+1 is more then enough fire power IMO.

I believe the standard LEO ammo in those days was the 158LRN 38 special, but I may be wrong.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I believe the standard LEO ammo in those days was the 158LRN 38 special, but I may be wrong.

That's what most PDs, including mine, carried back then . . . although ours were semi-wadcutters instead of RN. I remember bitching to my chief that we should carry JHPs in our .38s some years before this.

The FBI made a film re-enacting this event and we spent an evening watching it and discussing it as part or our monthly in-service training way back in the late 1980s. I don't remember it looking like this video and I recall that it was a good deal longer (or at least it felt that way).

 

[M1911]

That's what most PDs, including mine, carried back then . . . although ours were semi-wadcutters instead of RN. I remember bitching to my chief that we should carry JHPs in our .38s some years before this.

The FBI made a film re-enacting this event and we spent an evening watching it and discussing it as part or our monthly in-service training way back in the late 1980s. I don't remember it looking like this video and I recall that it was a good deal longer (or at least it felt that way).

This was a made for TV movie, not the FBI re-enactment. I've seen both. The FBI re-enactment was rather different.

 

[DickWanner]

This was a made for TV movie, not the FBI re-enactment. I've seen both. The FBI re-enactment was rather different.

Was it more accurate to the original events?

 

[drgrant]

That video is a little comical. Platt's Mini was a semiautomatic. There was another re-creation of it on one of those crime shows, much better done... it was a very clumsy, bloody, drawn out gunfight...

Part of the reason the 9mm didn't work there is it involved the worst 9mm load ever invented- the 9mm 115 gr. winchester silvertip. Blech.

-Mike

 

[Fixxah]

I love how stupid, unarmed people come running to the gunfire.

 

[Len-2A Training]

This was a made for TV movie, not the FBI re-enactment. I've seen both. The FBI re-enactment was rather different.

Thanks for confirming it for me. After watching this, I felt that they were two distinctly different events depicted.

Was it more accurate to the original events?

I would hope so. It was a created as a training tool for LEOs not to repeat the mistakes.

This one was created for entertaining the masses.

Not hard to figure out which one is likely to be more valuable to people determined (or tasked) with defending their own (or others') lives.

 

[FalArAk]

This incident reminds me to never leave my weapons unattended at the range.

 

[ateamrob]

yeah I have that movie. Seen it a million times. Great movie for sure. In the movie Platt is using a Ruger AC-556F select fire MG (identical to mine in my avitar) but in real life he used a Mini 14. Small minor thing but that movie is one of the only documentary / informative resources out there on that shootout. I have searched and searched for years for pics etc on that shootout. It is a very popular topic in the LE community and was briefed and studied when I went through the Police Academy.

They did a pretty good job recreating the end gunfight according to some sources I have as far as vehicle positioning etc. This was one of the main shootouts that gave LE a wake up call on having heavier firepower etc. Of course they still did not learn their lesson (hence 10 or so years later with the North Hollywood shootout where they had to borrow ARs from a local gun store) Another GREAT book you guys should check out that discusses this shootout in depth is, "The Ayoob Files: the book" written by Massad Ayoob. Very, very hard to find book (maybe get it on amazon) but AWESOME resource on LE classic gunfights.

Rob

 

[JRyan]

http://www.amazon.com/Ayoob-Files-B...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271333027&sr=8-1

not cheap.

 

[calsdad]

Well, if you expect to go up against two very motivated former soldiers with combat experience, carrying a Mini-14 and shotgun, then yes, I'd like something bigger than a 7+1 9mm. But how likely do you think that scenario is?

Read your history.

We have been in two wars for a number of years - the likelihood of something similar to this happening is as high now as it has ever been. After WW1 we got the gangsters of the 20's and 30's. After WW2 we got Hell's Angels and a lot of crime in the 50's. The 70's wasn't the greatest decade for crime either - and it was full of ex-Vietnam soldiers. A lot of the legendary gunfighters and criminals of the old West - were ex Civil War soldiers.

I am actually surprised that there hasn't been more of this type of thing happening - but give it time, Obama can't completely destroy the economy in just one year - but he and the Democrats are working on it. Out of work pissed off ex-soldiers typically does not = happy days.

 

[Will Brink]

Not sure if it's been posted here before or not, first time I've seen it.

Makes me want to re-think my using a PF-9 as a daily carry. Either that or it solidifies my thought that 7+1 rounds of 9mm is only to be used to get me the f*ck out of the situation and nothing more. I might just go back to carrying 26 rounds of 10mm

I remember watching that movie when it came out