• If you enjoy the forum please consider supporting it by signing up for a NES Membership  The benefits pay for the membership many times over.

1911

Tooth

Tooth

Joined
Nov 18, 2008
Messages
906
Likes
197
Location
North Shore
Feedback: 1 / 0 / 0
is there a huge diff between the s&w and the colt/kimber? Or do I want the others because I can't get one easily? If I come across a nice kimber I am all over it, but should I wait?
 
S&W uses an external extractor. It also has a Schwartz-style firing pin safety which is activated by depressing the grip safety.

Old Kimbers were made using a Series 70 style action, with no firing pin safety. Series II Kimbers use a safety similar to the S&W, but I've heard more criticisms of the Kimber II than S&W.

Colts are made either in Series 70 style, with no firing pin safety, or Series 80 style with a firing pin safety operating off the trigger.

Personally, I prefer a Series 70 style gun with no firing pin safety. If you have to have a firing pin safety, then my next choice is a Series 80 style gun.

I've got 3 Kimber Series I guns, and they are great. I've got a Wilson Combat, which is better. I've got a Colt and Springfield Armory and they're fine as well. But here in MA, most of those are made of unobtanium.

Given our restrictions here in MA, I suggest you either get a S&W or find a friendly FFL and order a frame from Caspian and have a gunsmith build a gun from scratch.
 
Tooth said:
is there a huge diff between the s&w and the colt/kimber? Or do I want the others because I can't get one easily? If I come across a nice kimber I am all over it, but should I wait?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure if what you will pay for a Kimber in ma is worth the price.
I subject my Smith to all kinds of nasty sh!t. Soot, sweat, grinding brick. (majot dust), verbal abuse from Glock owners.[laugh] It still shoots better than me. I here tell, by them as knows that S&W stands tall behind their product. (but I have never had to find out) This reminds me, I should probably clean my gun.[smile]
 
I have 2 S&W 1911's One is a Performance Center model and the other is a regular Stainless model and I am very pleased with both.
 
S&W use to make a lot of the parts for Kimber, Frames, slides and a few other things. When S&W decided to make their own 1911's, Kimber had to find a new supplier.
 
Given our restrictions here in MA, I suggest you either get a S&W or find a friendly FFL and order a frame from Caspian and have a gunsmith build a gun from scratch.
Click to expand...
Infinity (www.sviguns.com) has a few guns on the target list. Fit and finish is above a S&W (which are decent enough guns), and pricing is almost at the "if you have to ask, you can't afford it" level - but great stuff. Everyone at the factory is a dog lover as well.
 
I would second the recommendation of many here. I have a Colt, but I really think that for Massachusetts inmates, the S&W is the best available choice. My preference if I could own anything in the 1911 world, out of the box and not a custom piece, would probably be a Kimber. Still, it is neat to own a pistol made by the original makers of the 1911, the one with the rampant colt stamped on it.

I think that you would be very pleased with a S&W.

Mark056 (disclaimer: I am a S&W stockholder)
 
Tooth said:
How does the colt compare to the s&w?
Click to expand...
Which Colt? A Series 70 or Series 80? Current production or 1980s? It is hard to generalize.

As a starting point for making the gun the way I want it, I'd prefer to start with a Series 70 style gun, whether that came from Colt or Springfield Armory. Most Colts will have an old style grip safety, an old style thumb safety, a solid trigger, and poor sights. I'll end up spending several hundred dollars getting all of those replaced. But the basic frame, slide, and barrel are fine.

A series I Kimber will already have the style of thumb safety, grip safety, trigger, and sights that I prefer. But you can't buy a Kimber a new Kimber in MA and people who already own them (like me) aren't selling. Personally, I would not buy a Kimber II even if the MA regulations went away -- I don't trust its firing pin safety or its problematic extractor.

Given the choice between a S&W 1911 and a Colt, I'd take the Colt, but by the time I had it set up how I want it would cost several hundred dollars more. I would do that because I don't like the S&W firing pin safety nor do I like the external extractor.

But the S&W is a solid gun and Colts are very hard to find in MA. If the MA regulations went away, I would buy another Wilson.
 
I have a S&W and bought it for several reasons.

It was new.
Reputation of S&W
Lifetime warranty
Lots of standard features.
I sent it back to get the safety/slide stop plunger tightened and they did it in a week, for free under warranty.
 
Tooth said:
is there a huge diff between the s&w and the colt/kimber? Or do I want the others because I can't get one easily? If I come across a nice kimber I am all over it, but should I wait?
Click to expand...

I've wanted a Colt series 70 for a long time. However, I've been told by some people that the problem is that 9 out 10 of these old colts has been monkeyed with by somebody. This isn't a problem for a 1911 expert who could easily pick out any problems, but for the more causal this could be an issue.
 
M1911 said:
Which Colt? A Series 70 or Series 80? Current production or 1980s? It is hard to generalize.

As a starting point for making the gun the way I want it, I'd prefer to start with a Series 70 style gun, whether that came from Colt or Springfield Armory. Most Colts will have an old style grip safety, an old style thumb safety, a solid trigger, and poor sights. I'll end up spending several hundred dollars getting all of those replaced. But the basic frame, slide, and barrel are fine.

A series I Kimber will already have the style of thumb safety, grip safety, trigger, and sights that I prefer. But you can't buy a Kimber a new Kimber in MA and people who already own them (like me) aren't selling. Personally, I would not buy a Kimber II even if the MA regulations went away -- I don't trust its firing pin safety or its problematic extractor.

Given the choice between a S&W 1911 and a Colt, I'd take the Colt, but by the time I had it set up how I want it would cost several hundred dollars more. I would do that because I don't like the S&W firing pin safety nor do I like the external extractor.

But the S&W is a solid gun and Colts are very hard to find in MA. If the MA regulations went away, I would buy another Wilson.
Click to expand...

FYI, S&W made a few guns using the SA safety method, which is titanium firing pin with no firing pin safety. It's unclear if they will go to market with as I understand it, but if they did, it would make a lot of 1911 buyers happy and their sales would only go up due to the change.
 
old series 70...

Mass-diver said:
I've wanted a Colt series 70 for a long time. However, I've been told by some people that the problem is that 9 out 10 of these old colts has been monkeyed with by somebody. This isn't a problem for a 1911 expert who could easily pick out any problems, but for the more causal this could be an issue.
Click to expand...

Indeed that's true. I just bought that Series 70 from Viper - it's a mid 70s gun (no complaints by the way, great gun and great guy). But someone who owned it pre-Viper had cut away part of the frame in the rear to accomodate a different grip safety. Subsequently, they put the stock grip safety back on. Fortunately, the gun was going to Greg Derr anyway for a lowered ejection port and a bunch of other "tweaks" and he will make it work perfectly with the new grip safety he is putting on.

But per your comments - I did not know about it until Greg pointed it out to me. Truthfully, it makes me feel beter about modifying it knowing that it wasn't in all original condition to begin with.

Still a FANTASTIC deal at $925 from Viper - no complaints! :)
 
Will Brink said:
FYI, S&W made a few guns using the SA safety method, which is titanium firing pin with no firing pin safety. It's unclear if they will go to market with as I understand it, but if they did, it would make a lot of 1911 buyers happy and their sales would only go up due to the change.
Click to expand...

Agreed, that would definitely increase their sales.
 
M1911 said:
Agreed, that would definitely increase their sales.
Click to expand...

No argument that it would increase their sales, but the question is how significantly? The S&W 1911's have been good sellers to date. From a purely marketing standpoint S&W has a reputation of fixing things that aren't broken only to see a loss in the market share, or "improvements" that end up costing more than they are worth in terms of recouping the change in terms of net profit.

I am not going to get into the firing pin safety/no safety debate.

Mark056
 
In this case, it would actually cost less to produce, by removing the unneeded parts and eliminating several machining steps.
 
So you can buy only what's on the "target" list from this company? Which are they? PM me for more "specifics" if that's needed...
Click to expand...
SVI/Infinity (www.sviguns.com) has some guns on the target list and some on the lab tested list. Dealers vary on what they feel comfortable selling - some accept that even the lab tested ones are designed and manufactured exclusively for formal target shooting competition. Some dealers won't even accept inclusion on the target list as allowing sale, our of fear the AG may take the position that "just because the EOPS accepts it as a target gun doesn't mean we do".

The CMRs explicitly include smaller caliber equivalents to tested guns, so I believe you have a caliber assortment available. Also, you can get a stripped frame and have it built up.

Since each gun is built to order (too many options to stock pre-built ones), you can choose a custom serial number.

If anyone on this list is seriously considering one, I can meet you at the Hopkinton club (www.hsasports.com) and bring a few. Ditto for JP rifles (www.jprifles.com).
 
Last edited:
M1911 said:
Which Colt? A Series 70 or Series 80? Current production or 1980s? It is hard to generalize.



Given the choice between a S&W 1911 and a Colt, I'd take the Colt, but by the time I had it set up how I want it would cost several hundred dollars more. I would do that because I don't like the S&W firing pin safety nor do I like the external extractor.
Click to expand...

M1911, what is the advantage of the firing pin safety on the S&W? Maybe I should ask, why is the series 70 Colt a better gun?

I have an old, pristine Colt Gold Cup National Match that shoots real well, but I've never understood the advantage of the series 70 over the series 80.

I too would like a Wilson Custom Combat or a commander sized gun from Kimber. I've been thinking of turning my Gold Cup into a carry gun with fixed sights but it seems a shame to change such a classic gun.

Thanks for any info you can give me. Anyone else?
 
depicts said:
M1911, what is the advantage of the firing pin safety on the S&W? Maybe I should ask, why is the series 70 Colt a better gun?
Click to expand...
On a Series 70 style gun, the only thing keeping the firing pin from hitting the primer is the firing pin retaining spring. If you drop a Series 70 style gun from a high enough level, onto a hard enough surface, and it hits on the muzzle, the inertia of the firing pin may overcome the force of the spring, causing an AD. Using a lighter firing pin and a heavier firing pin retaining spring reduces the chance of this happening (which is what Springfield Armory does).

Most modern handguns have a firing pin safety that prevents the firing pin from moving unless you are holding the trigger to the rear. There are at least 3 different types of firing pin safeties for 1911s:

- Series 80 Colt (also used by ParaOrdnance and Sig)
- Kimber II Swartz style safety
- S&W Swartz style safety

The advantage of all three of these firing pin safeties is that they are drop safe. As described above, Series 70 are probably not drop safe. They each have their disadvantages, of course.

The Series 80 style deactivates the firing pin safety when you pull the trigger. A lever on the frame pushes up on a plunger on the underside of the slide. The main downside of this system is that it takes a bit more work to achieve a top notch trigger feel. The other downside is more fiddly parts when putting the gun back together after being detail stripped. I can put back together a detail stripped Series 70 gun with a quick review of my Wilson booklet. I haven't ever tried to put a detail stripped Series 80 gun back together. Note, this is picking nits a bit, since you really don't have to go beyond a field strip. This system is considered to be very reliable.

Both the Kimber II and S&W safety systems disable the firing pin safety when you depress the grip safety. The advantage of this is that it should not affect the trigger feel. Downside is that there have been more than a few failures to go boom if the system is not adjusted properly. This seems to be much more of an issue with the Kimber IIs than with S&W. Here's what one 1911 gunsmith wrote about the issue:

Firing pin safeties typically fall into the Colt Series 80 pattern which are actuated by the trigger (Colt Series 80, Para Ordnance, Sig GSR) and the Swartz style safety which is actuated by the grip safety (Kimber, Smith & Wesson). Of all the firing pin safety mechanisms on the market, the original Colt Series 80 - in a Colt - is the most reliable of them all. The platforms utilizing the Swartz safety are a less than ideal choice across the board due to the inherent reliability problems of the design. The Swartz safety is extremely sensitive to the fit of the grip safety to the frame and the timing of the grip safety's trigger blocking arm. Tolerance issues can also lead to a Swartz safety that will time properly when the grip safety is depressed a certain way, and time differently when depressed a different way. This will typically be a product of loose fit of the grip safety to the frame tangs and/or loose fit of the thumb safety shaft through the grip safety. It is possible to have the grip safety timed such that the trigger will be able to release the sear well before the firing pin safety plunger has been moved far enough to clear the firing pin. Problems with improper timing of the Swartz safeties can lead to a situation where you get a "click" when you wanted a "bang." That's a serious problem. Unless department policy mandates a firing pin safety, I would choose a 1911 without one. It is possible to have a drop safe 1911 without the firing pin safety, and given the potential reliability problems with a poorly executed system, the perceived risk of drop safety is outweighed by the real risk of a failure to fire.
Click to expand...

http://www.10-8performance.com/id8.html

I have an old, pristine Colt Gold Cup National Match that shoots real well, but I've never understood the advantage of the series 70 over the series 80.
Click to expand...
Better trigger feel and fewer parts. Downside is the chance of an AD if you drop a Series 70.

I too would like a Wilson Custom Combat or a commander sized gun from Kimber. I've been thinking of turning my Gold Cup into a carry gun with fixed sights but it seems a shame to change such a classic gun.
Click to expand...
Keep your Gold Cup as is. Since you are behind enemy lines, talk to someone like Greg Derr about how to spec out a frame and slide from Caspian, find a friendly FFL, then have it built the way you want it.

Note, IANAGS (I Am Not A GunSmith), nor am I a 1911 expert -- not even in my own mind. So take this with an unhealthy helping of salt.
 
Last edited:
i remember combing the web for info on 1911 pistols when i recieved my carry permit and my obsession realized. after owning and working on 1911s, really; when it comes down to it, how comfortable are you working on it? i have made "unreliable" 1911s reliable, tried various minor mods to see what works for me, seen the "Best" 1911s break in the worse manner possible.

if you live in MA as i do than we have a small list of 1911s that can be purchased new. the best advice i can give you is not to look for other's opinion's, look at the reliability related modifications that are performed and see what you would be comfortable doing, also look up the original John Browning design (such as ramp angle +/-). sorry for the lack of refernece but its not hard to find either.

once you see how a 1911 funcitons and what is commonly done as a "reliability" measure, it will give you a better understanding of what should fire how in theory, different in practice but at lease an understanding is reached.

give you an example, my colt commander is great after minor machining, para LTC is great after minor mods, s&w (2 of them) had issues i would not feel comfortable with to carry the pistol, kimbers are great but really over priced in MA.

if cost is not an issue for you, go straight to wilson combat
 
I had a Kimber and didn't really like it that much. I thought the magazines were of poor quality. Also, I don't think the finish was all that fantastic. I think the S&W are probably as good or better.
 
One thing to remember when thinking about 1911s is to compare then to AR15s. Lots of folks are terrified of 1911s in general and, in the unlikely event that they know this much, of Series 70 1911s in particular. "They're not safe. They'll go off if you drop them!"

Yup, they might.

Of course, an AR15 is just as much a single action gun as an M1911. While an M1911 has firing pin retaining spring, an AR15 does not. Furthermore, the AR15 firing pin spring is heavier and thus has more inertia, and no spring force to overcome. And yet these very same folks are not concerned about an AR15 going off if it is dropped. [thinking]

Suggestion? Don't drop your guns if you can avoid it.
 
M1911 said:
One thing to remember when thinking about 1911s is to compare then to AR15s. Lots of folks are terrified of 1911s in general and, in the unlikely event that they know this much, of Series 70 1911s in particular. "They're not safe. They'll go off if you drop them!"

Yup, they might.

Suggestion? Don't drop your guns if you can avoid it.
Click to expand...

I've heard this a lot (re: series 70s) - just the other day someone said "why do you think they changed the design?"
 

Similar threads

Watchtower Apache 1911
Replies
9
Views
406
paul73
paul73
Happy Colt 1911 Day!
Replies
0
Views
73
FPrice
FPrice
1911 .22LR
Replies
2
Views
269
PappyM3
PappyM3
1911 magazine won’t insert fully
2
Replies
51
Views
1K
Matt_SERE
Matt_SERE
1911 Which one?
2 3 4
Replies
112
Views
3K
Tallahassee
Tallahassee
Back
Top Bottom