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1903 Springfield Rifle - 2700 Yards???
- Thread starter MassMark
- Start date
I have now. Thanks.
implied accuracy
I think I was watching the same show and they implied that extremely long range shots (1,000 yards plus) was common and guaranteed.
I felt they were exaggerating.
The pessimist in me was thinking ... a couple of British PhD's who have probably never fired a center fire high powered rifle.
Bill
I think I was watching the same show and they implied that extremely long range shots (1,000 yards plus) was common and guaranteed.
I felt they were exaggerating.
The pessimist in me was thinking ... a couple of British PhD's who have probably never fired a center fire high powered rifle.
Bill
J
Jose
You would be right.
The number of military and civilian riflemen in the US who can reliably deliver accurate fire from field positions at 1000 yards or slightly beyond is only in the low thousands by my guesstimate.
That number drops off exponentially at 1500 yards and beyond.
I know that Carlos Hathcock was said to have done this in Vietnam. That's the earliest I'd heard of it being done.
When I was in basic training back in early 67, we had to shoot the M14 at silhouette targets out to 1,000 yds and if you wanted to qualify as Expert, you had to hit them. If you were good enough, the gun would do the job for you, so you could say, they were guaranteed, if you did your part. If the M14 could do it, the '03 sure could.
So yes, 1,000 yd shots are (were) common with a .30 cal. (in this case a .308)
Yes, I qualified as Expert. Today I wouldn't be able to see the targets.
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I can't remember the name of that expert on Weaponology, but he's the short stalky guy with the extremely bulbous head - I believe he's an Army curator at West Point, but I could be wrong. As soon as he said it, I posted - it seemed so far-fetched. The other guy on there - the American Phd pretending to be English with the curly hair and 'lilt' in his voice makes me mental. He seems to know so much, but the way he presents it is almost like he's describing mauve draperies at Macys...
I was in the Army, man, not the frickin Marines !
And you were shooting qualifications at 1000 yards?
B
yup
M2
What a PIA setting that thing up was. I almost failed BNCOC II because of that damn weapon.
Setting the headspace and timing was a PIA.
********I had the record for break down and set up of the M2 in my infranty school![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
What a PIA setting that thing up was. I almost failed BNCOC II because of that damn weapon.
Setting the headspace and timing was a PIA.
I think Jose is right. I know there are at least a few undred Marines that can do it. The Army is over twice the size so that would make another 600 which takes us to 900. Then there are guys like me and Brian who served, shot at 1K and got out that would make up at least another 1000 or more.
I guess I didn't reallise there were that many currently in the service that are long-range capable. I had mentally put that number at 3-400.
I was thinking of the LR Championship at Camp Perry with just over 300 shooters. I figured probably 50 of those really were just there to shoot it and don't really fall into the category of "reliable, accurate fire" and maybe a couple hundred more who are capable, who didn't show up.
If I have one fault (and that's a big IF), it's that I take things too literally. I am thinking less than a thousand guys who you could grab off the street, lay them down on a mat, and expect them to hit a target 1000yds away. I don't include myself or probably a few thousand other HP guys who have experience at 600yds, but not at 1000. Given a day at the 1000yd range, that number would definitely be a lot higher.
I was thinking of the LR Championship at Camp Perry with just over 300 shooters. I figured probably 50 of those really were just there to shoot it and don't really fall into the category of "reliable, accurate fire" and maybe a couple hundred more who are capable, who didn't show up.
If I have one fault (and that's a big IF), it's that I take things too literally. I am thinking less than a thousand guys who you could grab off the street, lay them down on a mat, and expect them to hit a target 1000yds away. I don't include myself or probably a few thousand other HP guys who have experience at 600yds, but not at 1000. Given a day at the 1000yd range, that number would definitely be a lot higher.
The Stryker Brigades - the new look Army TO&E - have sniper teams assigned down to the company level and equipped with a .50 Cal (as well as 7.62). In addition, there is a Squad Designated Marksman in each squad of a platoon that is equipped with the M24 (7.62) rifle. Finally, the RSTA AKA Cavalry Squadron (Reconnaissance, Surveillance, & Target Acquisition) has snipers as well, although I couldn't find the exact number. 19D's - Cavalry Scouts - can now to attend the Army's Sniper School. It historically was a position restricted to an 11 (Infantry) or 18 (Special Forces) MOS.
The result is a huge increase in the number of school-trained snipers in the Army. If they're shooting the Barrett .50, 1,000 meters would be more readily achievable than when they only had the 7.62.
A Tad More Garnered From the Net . . .
Caliber: .50BMG (12.7x99mm)
Operation: manually operated rotary bolt action
Barrel: 736 mm
Weight: 11.8 kg
Length: 1448 mm
Feed Mechanism: 5-round detachable box magazine
http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn74-e.htm
TAC-50 sniper rifle is produced in USA by McMillan Bros. Rifles Co. This long range anti-materiel / anti-personnel weapon is based on previous designs from the same company, which first appeared during late 1980s. McMillan Co makes several versions of .50 caliber rifles, based on same proprietary action, for military, law enforcement and civilian use. TAC-50 is a military / LE weapon, which is standard Long Range Sniper rifle of Canadian Armed Forces since 2000. Rifles of TAC-50 family is capable of outstanding accuracy and guaranteed to provide 0.5 MOA groups with match grade ammunition. TAC-50 rifle is also credited with longest range documented kill on enemy soldier: in 2003, a Canadian sniper shot and killed an Afghani taliban insurgent from the range of 2430 meters (nearly one and a half mile).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Hathcock#Legacy
Hathcock remains a legend within the U.S. Marines. The Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock Award is presented annually to the Marine who does the most to promote marksmanship training. A sniper range is also named for Hathcock at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina.
In 1967, Hathcock set the record for the 20th century's longest combat kill with a Browning M2 .50 BMG machine gun mounting a telescopic sight. The distance was 2,286 meters or 1.42 miles. Hathcock was one of several individuals to utilize the Browning M2 machine gun in the sniping role. This success led to the adoption of the .50 BMG cartridge as a viable anti-personnel and anti-equipment sniper round. Sniper rifles have been designed for this round.
The record stood until the 21st century, when in 2002 it was broken during Operation Anaconda in Afganistan by a Canadian three-man sniper team led by Master Corporal Graham Ragsdale from the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry (PPCLI). The record itself was set by Corporal Rob Furlong with a shot of 2,430 meters from a McMillan TAC-50 Long-Range Sniper Weapon on a Taliban fighter.
McMillan TAC-50 long range sniper rifle (USA)
Caliber: .50BMG (12.7x99mm)
Operation: manually operated rotary bolt action
Barrel: 736 mm
Weight: 11.8 kg
Length: 1448 mm
Feed Mechanism: 5-round detachable box magazine
http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn74-e.htm
TAC-50 sniper rifle is produced in USA by McMillan Bros. Rifles Co. This long range anti-materiel / anti-personnel weapon is based on previous designs from the same company, which first appeared during late 1980s. McMillan Co makes several versions of .50 caliber rifles, based on same proprietary action, for military, law enforcement and civilian use. TAC-50 is a military / LE weapon, which is standard Long Range Sniper rifle of Canadian Armed Forces since 2000. Rifles of TAC-50 family is capable of outstanding accuracy and guaranteed to provide 0.5 MOA groups with match grade ammunition. TAC-50 rifle is also credited with longest range documented kill on enemy soldier: in 2003, a Canadian sniper shot and killed an Afghani taliban insurgent from the range of 2430 meters (nearly one and a half mile).
# # #
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Hathcock#Legacy
Hathcock remains a legend within the U.S. Marines. The Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock Award is presented annually to the Marine who does the most to promote marksmanship training. A sniper range is also named for Hathcock at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina.
In 1967, Hathcock set the record for the 20th century's longest combat kill with a Browning M2 .50 BMG machine gun mounting a telescopic sight. The distance was 2,286 meters or 1.42 miles. Hathcock was one of several individuals to utilize the Browning M2 machine gun in the sniping role. This success led to the adoption of the .50 BMG cartridge as a viable anti-personnel and anti-equipment sniper round. Sniper rifles have been designed for this round.
The record stood until the 21st century, when in 2002 it was broken during Operation Anaconda in Afganistan by a Canadian three-man sniper team led by Master Corporal Graham Ragsdale from the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry (PPCLI). The record itself was set by Corporal Rob Furlong with a shot of 2,430 meters from a McMillan TAC-50 Long-Range Sniper Weapon on a Taliban fighter.
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J
Jose
Rack grade guns at 1000 yards? That must have been a Green Giant-sized silhouette.
I don't remember the actual ranges, but I know that back in 64 we were shooting fairly long range qualification in the Corps with the M14. I don't have the specifics in front of me, but I recall reading that the Army was shooting ~800yd quals with the .45-70 back in the late 1800s.
Ken
You are wrong, but close. His name is William Atwater and he's the director of the US Army Ordnance Museum.
Thanks Jim - that's him. He seems to know what he is talking about and glows about all service branches and their weapons. I was surprised to see him make the 2700-yard claim the other night.
I just saw this very show last night. He did indeed make that very claim, and he said it very slowly, clearly, and seriously.
I knew I wasn't dreaming....
![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
I am no match shooter, but have made my share of 1,000 yard shots. I can't imagine making the same shot 1,700 yards further with a WWI rifle with open sights... ![[shocked]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/007.gif "Shocked [shocked]")
