1903 Springfield Rifle - 2700 Yards???

[MassMark]

I'm watching Weaponology right now and one of their experts claimed that the Springfield Rifle was "deadly accurate" out to 2700 yards. He seemed to imply that it was almost commonplace to make a shot like that. I know it's possible, but was it realistic or are there any confirmed kills with an '03' at that distance? Just curious.

 

[Doctordrew]

maybe he meant feet? or 270 yards... 2700 is kiiinda rediculous

 

[z0mbi]

According to wiki:

The M1903A4 was slowly phased out during the Korean war by the Army, but saw extensive use in the Marine Corps in the form of the M1941 Sniper rifle. This new rifle was simply equipped with a very long and powerful Unertl 7.8x (as compared to the M73B1 2.5X telescopic sights issued with the army's M1903A4) variant type scope. It was used in situations when the range to the target simply exceeded that of the Marines' M1C and M1D sniper rifles, which were effective to about 500 yards. In some rare cases, kills from up to 1,000 yards were reported by Marines using the M1941 sniper rifles.

 

[bpm990d]

I'm sure that there were kills at that distance; but that is really irrelevant. The TV show is full of pure crap. According to Hatcher's Notebook The WWII accuracy acceptance specifications for lots of M2 Ball was a mean radius of 6.5 inches at 500 yards, which translates into a 19 inch group. I seriously doubt the WWI ammo was better.

Those sights that were marked out to those ridiculous distances were for mass volley fire against area targets.

B

EDIT: For clarity

 

[z0mbi]

I read somewhere that in the Korean war that they used to jerry-rig scopes onto their .50 cal machine guns and use them to snipe at the Koreans on the mountains across from their position.

 

[bpm990d]

Yes, there are a variety of optical sights that can be mounted on an M2.

B

 

[Big Daddy 45acp]

Possibly in "Volley Fire"?

 

[z0mbi]

I've never heard of 'volley fire' with sniper rifles, but I guess it's possible.

 

[bpm990d]

What are you talking about? You were the only one that mentioned sniper rifles. Regular M1903 rifle sights were set up for volley fire.

B

 

[z0mbi]

No idea.

 

[Jose]

2700 yards = bullshit

 

[EddieCoyle]

Maybe they were referring to the shot made by GySgt Carlos Hathcock. But that was a different rifle, and 2500 yards.

 

[rwl1955]

Hathcock

Maybe they were referring to the shot made by GySgt Carlos Hathcock. But that was a different rifle, and 2500 yards.

*******
If I remember correctly the shot was made with a M2,50cal with a scope mounted on it. He had zeroed the weapon on a rice paddy berm and when the VC came into the crosshairs he zapped him.

 

[asilva]

I was watching "Superweapons", and there was asniper rifle that was good for 2000 yds. THat was an amazing gun.

 

[Admin]

*******
If I remember correctly the shot was made with a M2,50cal with a scope mounted on it. He had zeroed the weapon on a rice paddy berm and when the VC came into the crosshairs he zapped him.

I can't imagine what a mess that was.

 

[Pilgrim]

I have no doubt that a .30-06 would kill someone at that range. At 2800 fps that's only 3-6 seconds travel time for that round, even taking into consideration falling velocity over distance.

Whether it could be done on purpose or purely by luck is another story.

 

[bpm990d]

This is always an interesting read on the limits of field marksmanship. Sniper Weapon Fire Control Error Budget Analysis - Raymond Von Wahlde, Dennis Metz, August 1999. P21-24 are where the rubber meets the road and shows what the realistic capabilities were in their test subjects. They computed hit probabilities on an Army E-silhouette out to 1500M with several sniper systems.

B

 

[rwl1955]

Hathcock

I can't imagine what a mess that was.

*******
If I remember correctly he had set up the M2 on a tripod w/scope to overwatch a rice patty that they suspected was being used by the VC to smuggle weapons. Sure enough during the night he observes this teenage boy pushing a bicycle along the berm loaded with AK`s. He had second thoughts about killing a kid so the placed the 1st shot on the frame of the bike. When the round hit the bike it knocked the kid and the bike into the rice paddy. The kid came back up firing so Hathcock wasted him. Yes, that must have been messy.
Many years ago when I was a young PFC a Vietnam Veteran in my Reserve unit told me about a Huey pilot that took a round from a Chinese .510 during an insertion. The round came up through the floor and hit him in the chest. He said it was very ugly and messy.

 

[jcr]

2700 yds is just a rounding up of the number of yards in 2 miles.

Even .22 ammo boxes warn of being dangerous up to 2 miles.

This all get conflated and confused into 30.06 being accurate up to 2700 yds.

 

[S. Kelly]

My father told me a guy he was with in Korea put a scope on a .50 and had some hits with it. This was in 1953.

 

[PatMcD]

Even the M2, great weapon that it may be, is not capable of direct sniper fire at that range. He basically chose between shooting the VC or his bike? At 2500yds? Assuming a moving target? I don't think so.
I would believe it if the M2 was set up to hit an certain area (say a "box" of 20ft by 50ft) at that range if they detected movement. Dump 50-100 rds at that area and you will probably hit your target.

The 50BMG round is probably capable of accuracy at distance (specially loaded ammo, shot out of a purpose-built sniper rifle), but I don't believe the old M2 is exactly a "one shot, one kill" weapon system.

 

[rwl1955]

Hathcock

Even the M2, great weapon that it may be, is not capable of direct sniper fire at that range. He basically chose between shooting the VC or his bike? At 2500yds? Assuming a moving target? I don't think so.
I would believe it if the M2 was set up to hit an certain area (say a "box" of 20ft by 50ft) at that range if they detected movement. Dump 50-100 rds at that area and you will probably hit your target.

The 50BMG round is probably capable of accuracy at distance (specially loaded ammo, shot out of a purpose-built sniper rifle), but I don't believe the old M2 is exactly a "one shot, one kill" weapon system.

*******
I`m pretty sure this account was in his book.
RWL

 

[Admin]

Come on Pat! Carlos is the Chuck Norris of the Marine Corps.

 

[z0mbi]

He shot a dude in the eye through his scope! He's a magical ninja sniper dragon. He is 'White Feather'.

 

[AMV]

I would have to agree that it is deadly at 2700 yards, but calling it accurate is a bit much.
oh and all those that think otherwise, would you feel comfortable standing 2700 yards down range from the muzzle while someone squeezed of 5 round from an 03???

 

[z0mbi]

Depends, am I in a tank?

 

[AMV]

No Tank, but you can have a helmet!

 

[Admin]

No Tank, but you can have a helmet!

Don't do it zOmbi! Stick with the tank.

 

[Admin]

I had the record for break down and set up of the M2 in my infranty school

 

[PatMcD]

Come on Pat! Carlos is the Chuck Norris of the Marine Corps.

Hey, I don't doubt Hathcock's skill with a rifle. Back in the day he won the Winbledon Cup wasn't it? I am just saying somebody calling a shot with a M2 at 1-1/2 miles is a bit far fetched. A bicycle frame? What's that, maybe an inch or two? You can't even see that at that range. Perhaps that quote got confused with him doing the same feat with a Rem 700 at 500yds or so? I would actually beleive that, if he said it.

And another thing: Chuck Norris has no use for sniper rifles. The force from one of his air-punches has a shock wave that reaches out at least 3000yds.