AK47's - Who makes the best one and why?

[Moderator]

So I want to start another thread similar to the AR15 thread I started last year. This thread is not for me this thread is intended to be informative for everyone, like the AR15 thread. I want the facts! Who makes the best AK's and why. Don't just spit out for example, Bulgarians and thats it. Tell me why their AK is superior to other manufactures. Now, I already know this thread will differ from the AR thread because well, AR's can be built from start to finish in one building, unlike most AK's that are composed of parts kits. I also know two companies may appear to make the same gun, but the quality and craftsmanship may differ.

Also, this thread is not to be used as a AK flame thread or AK vs AR thread. Those types of posts will be deleted.

Enjoy

 

[flintoid]

Are we talking Country of Origin? Or dare we broach the topic of builders in the United States of America? - you know, the Gewehr Werks, the Matt Yaemens, Pieces of History vs the Jim Fullers of the world who don't know their head from their ass when it comes to an AK.

because I could give you a pretty lengthy response as to what are the intricacies between country contract variants (chicom vs soviet vs serbian vs egyptian vs etc), what was imported and what those imports resemble of their "big brother" select fire military variants, versus what is imported now and how they stack up, too.


There is also the issue of Domestic receivers- what constitute as good, bad, and ugly. This should be tied to the first thing I listed- even if you have a good builder like Gewehr on the task, if you hand them a piece of shit receiver, you're still going to have a piece of shit in the end.


Where do you want to go? Which way over this glorious rainbow?

 

[Boris]

Who makes the best AK's and why.

no need to dedicate entire thread to this: Flintoid ... because he is an illegitimate son of Michael Kalashnikov, duh! </thread>

seriously though, the best AK is the one that you make yourself, because you got no one else to blame for "suck" and you can make it any way you like it.

 

[flintoid]

seriously though, the best AK is the one that you make yourself, because you got no one else to blame for "suck" and you can make it any way you like it.

there is this, too. Maybe you know how to put one together like a boss, like Boris. And maybe you want an RPK barrel on a 2.0mm thick sheet metal receiver and know how to heat treat it after bending it so it's the proper hardness. And maybe that barrel is shortened with a PKM flashhider on it so it's harmonics aren't all f'd up and now you've got a red headed step child of an AK that drills gophers nuts at 200 yards.

There are US manufacturers of AK parts. But few who "make" the whole thing. In fact, I think there is only one US company that builds it all from the ground up- at least they claim to anyways. Their barrel components look suspiciously milsurp to me, and it'd make sense to only refinish milsurp parts because machining and molding them would be super expensive.

This is a topic that has many twists and turns to it. Just because no one in the US makes AKs. They do make barrels, though, and that is an entirely different subject- some do it right, while some spec them out completely wrong.... there are a bunch of AK74 barrels out there that are 5.56 bores for 5.45's.

 

[Deer Slayer]

no need to dedicate entire thread to this: Flintoid ... because he is an illegitimate son of Michael Kalashnikov, duh! </thread>

seriously though, the best AK is the one that you make yourself, because you got no one else to blame for "suck" and you can make it any way you like it.

Isn't there an Inky's AK build party coming up soon? IMO I think the Arsenal's are some of the best around but it really depends what you want for a caliber, folder or non folder and there are many more options. Contrary to popular belief its almost as easy to find parts for AK's as it is for AR15's. So it really depends. It would be ignorant to say _________ is the best AK because _________ . I would suggest building one if you know how or want to drop the coin to get a custom. I would buy one now because if Barry gets back in office every things going to be shut down because of a brand new AWB.

 

[mclina]

http://www.redjacketfirearms.com/in...&category_id=3&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=4

 

[45collector]

All I know is my MAK90 is an excellent shooter. A lot of folks will say the Chinese made some of the nicest AK variants out there. I'd have to agree with them as I've owned two and they both ran/run like silky-ass buttered goodness. Years ago a friend had a, what I believe was a Century-built WASR that had the worst trigger slap I've ever felt on any firearm. The fit and finish was shit. It ran though, and from what I remember the accuracy was about what you'd expect.

 

[flintoid]

IMO I think the Arsenal's are some of the best around

why? how many other AKs have you shot? Would you know a romanian from a russian? I'm not talking about the girls, that's obvious- the romanian ones have huge tits.

http://www.redjacketfirearms.com/in...&category_id=3&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=4

actually, they make make a decent end product in the realm of Saiga conversions. They used to sell for fractions of that before the stupid TV show. And I doubt their quality has dropped, much. A few members here got some Saiga conversions from them (their specialty) and they are very, very nice. What was better? They were one of the few places that would actually **** around with dealing customers in Massachusetts. There is a lot to be said about that.

So, yeah, it's easy to rip on Red Jacket. But you know what? You can't judge a book by it's cover. I haven't. But I've seen their handy work and it's nice.

Like Jim Fuller- he's an ass clown. He posts videos on youtube telling you that he has absolutely no idea how a AKM works.

 

[mclina]

But seriously, the current production Saiga rifles are very high quality. They are the basis for a lot of the rifles built by people like Red Jacket and Arsenal. If you are not looking for collector piece from a specific country, then these are great shooters. You can turn a Saiga rifle into something resembling a 'real' AK for under $150 and have a good looking shooter.

 

[flintoid]

But seriously, the current production Saiga rifles are very high quality. They are the basis for a lot of the rifles built by people like Red Jacket and Arsenal.

the parts for Arsenal of Nevada built rifles aren't really Saigas, so to speak. They come to them in a different form than a Saiga sporter- they don't have a lot of the rivet holes in the receiver that a Saiga sporting rifle needs for it's awkward fire control group.

They get a barreled receiver without any of the components like the fire control group and trigger guard installed on it. Then they build 922r compliant rifles off of them.

They're essentially Izhmash barreled receivers that are then completed by US assemblers.

 

[mclina]

why? how many other AKs have you shot? Would you know a romanian from a russian? I'm not talking about the girls, that's obvious- the romanian ones have huge tits.



actually, they make make a decent end product in the realm of Saiga conversions. They used to sell for fractions of that before the stupid TV show. And I doubt their quality has dropped, much. A few members here got some Saiga conversions from them (their specialty) and they are very, very nice. What was better? They were one of the few places that would actually **** around with dealing customers in Massachusetts. There is a lot to be said about that.

So, yeah, it's easy to rip on Red Jacket. But you know what? You can't judge a book by it's cover. I haven't. But I've seen their handy work and it's nice.

Like Jim Fuller- he's an ass clown. He posts videos on youtube telling you that he has absolutely no idea how a AKM works.

I figured that the RJ rifles were good quality, it's just that the pricing seems insane, and at one point they had like a 6 month waiting period for them. It can't be just the three clowns on TV building them.

 

[MA_Shooter]

I recently started reading about AK's and found the akforum to be a good place for information (aside from NES of course) - http://www.theakforum.net

 

[SKS Ray]

I've got a decent collection of AKs going and am still working on it. One I do not have but have shot and would definitely like to own one is a Polytech Legend series milled receiver AK. Preferably a folder and fixed stock.

 

[ChevyGuy91]

maybe you want an RPK barrel on a 2.0mm thick sheet metal receiver and know how to heat treat it after bending it so it's the proper hardness. And maybe that barrel is shortened with a PKM flashhider on it so it's harmonics aren't all f'd up and now you've got a red headed step child of an AK that drills gophers nuts at 200 yards.

You holding out on me Bro?

 

[Moderator]

Are we talking Country of Origin? Or dare we broach the topic of builders in the United States of America? - you know, the Gewehr Werks, the Matt Yaemens, Pieces of History vs the Jim Fullers of the world who don't know their head from their ass when it comes to an AK.

because I could give you a pretty lengthy response as to what are the intricacies between country contract variants (chicom vs soviet vs serbian vs egyptian vs etc), what was imported and what those imports resemble of their "big brother" select fire military variants, versus what is imported now and how they stack up, too.


There is also the issue of Domestic receivers- what constitute as good, bad, and ugly. This should be tied to the first thing I listed- even if you have a good builder like Gewehr on the task, if you hand them a piece of shit receiver, you're still going to have a piece of shit in the end.


Where do you want to go? Which way over this glorious rainbow?

Take the thread to wherever you think it should go. You're one of the resident AK guru's. Show us the way.

 

[Cap]

Should I go with an IZ 332 for a conversation?

 

[flintoid]

Should I go with an IZ 332 for a conversation?

yes, if you want a 7.62 x 39 Saiga to convert - it already has the handguard retainer on the rifle. But this isn't the thread to ask about this question. Post it in a Saiga conversion thread, or make a new one, and someone will find it quicker and answer it.

This thread's topic is about AKs and quality comparisons of different types.

 

[flintoid]

Take the thread to wherever you think it should go. You're one of the resident AK guru's. Show us the way.

I'll knock the topic of "licensed builders" out quick, then-

Judgement of AK builders in the United States is difficult for me, personally, because I haven't handled their builds. But from what I read on the internet and the subsequent pictorial reviews, Piece of History does fine work. So does Gewehr Werks. There are a bunch of other builders who do good work, but you could go look up the vendors over at www.theakforum.net and find other people who do good work.

Matt Yaemans does fine re-welding work. I had a soviet milled type 3 PLO kit rewelded by him and it turned out very nice. I did some of my own refinishing/blending of the weld lines, but the rifle came back from him in good form.

The widely known licensed gunsmiths in Massachusetts generally suck at building AKs. I've seen some hack jobs of MA renowned 1911 'smiths that look worse than the work I do when black out hammered. Seriously. I did see pictures of (I think) Jasper's AK, and it seemed to be done well enough. I think he had it done in MA but I don't know by who.

Anyone can modify an AK, and general compliance work is easily done. Price should govern who is doing it, unless you are a stickler for finish work, etc. Then you'd have to be the judge of that (who is willing to do the work as you want it done, etc).

 

[flintoid]

All I know is my MAK90 is an excellent shooter. A lot of folks will say the Chinese made some of the nicest AK variants out there. I'd have to agree with them as I've owned two and they both ran/run like silky-ass buttered goodness. Years ago a friend had a, what I believe was a Century-built WASR that had the worst trigger slap I've ever felt on any firearm. The fit and finish was shit. It ran though, and from what I remember the accuracy was about what you'd expect.

The saying that "the best Chinese knock off is their AK" is true. They are well put together, smooth, and function nicely.

other notoriously available AKs that can be bought off the shelf in MA:

Saigas: sporterized civilian export Soviet AKs- very nice firearms with good hammer forged barrels on Russian receivers. Conversions yield nice rifles, and if you are a cheap bastard, this route will yield you what you want for the price that you desire

Romanian WASR: Romanian civilian export rifle. Rough finishing, some older models can have sloppy triggers, but nothing that can't be fixed by a $25 fire control group and a retarded brain operating fumbling hands. FCG replacement is a PITA, but with any sort of motivation and resolve, you can do it no matter how stupid you are. Hammer forged romanian barrels on a real WASR. No mag well dimples- spot welded plates govern magazine placement. And Century Arms hogs out the mag well to fit double stack magazines. Check front sight post alignment to rear sight leaf before buying. If it lines up, you are fine.

People don't like the poor black oxide finish, the general shoddy machining from used rough romanian tooling, the magazine slop (inherent with the plate design), or the poor triggers. The latter can be fixed, as previously stated, and the former issues are personal preference. Not once will you hear of people saying that they don't work. Because they do. If you don't want a poorly finished AK, refinish it yourself or buy something else.

MAK-90's: previously covered in thread- they are nice but sometimes come with a "butthole" (thumbhole) stock. Easily replaced- unless you have a slant cut receiver, then your options are limited.

CAI/Intrac Maadi AKs - post ban imports, nice rifles. Egyptian markings in arabic sometimes can be found on them. Designed for a double stack mag like a MAK so they run solid out of the door of the shop without any worry of FCG or mag well modifications.

Pre-Ban AKs: Polytechs and Norincos (chinese AK variants) comprise most of these, unless they are Mitchell Arms Yugoslav imports or Hungarian imports (Kassnar SA-85s) or preban Egyptian Maadi AKs (Steyer imports). All of these are nice rifles. They also demand more money due to their limited volume stateside.

I'll add more to this as I see time, but I've posted all of this info countless times on this forum. I'll just watch people add their experiences. If you don't see me ripping people's BS to shreds, then it's probably correct. Everyone has different experiences with different rifles. I'll only police blatant lies or "my shit is the best shit" posts.

I may get into country-of-origin comparisons, why rifles are the way they are (AMD-65's were meant to be shot out of tank gunner slots, Yugo m70's are the way they are due to grenade launching and chromium shortages in the lands that those Serbs live on, etc) but it's all old had shit that doesn't really matter much to someone who is about to post "what is the best AK?" If those questions or topics pop up, I'll input what I know.

 

[flintoid]

another thing to keep when you are "in the AK state of mind.."


barrels

There are two types of barrels that you will run into when dealing with semi auto AKs in the United States: imported barrels and US made barrels. The difference between the two can be as simple as 41xx chromoly steel vs. hammer forged steel. US barrels are all made out of machined chromium alloy steel blanks vs foreign hammer forged barrels. They also come in two other flavors: chrome lined and non chrome lined. First- the advantages and disadvantages of chrome lining vs. non chrome lined:

chrome lined barrels

Pros: usage longevity- you can put more rounds down the pipe due to the barrel surface hardness- it is increased and further resists wear, to avoid getting shot out sooner. This is measured in the ten's of thousands of rounds, though, so only someone pumping 50-80k down the pipe would notice measurable differences in wear.

They also resist corrosion better- corrosive surplus doesn't eat into the steel of the barrel when corrosion happens. It generally forms surface rust which is easily wiped away

cons: the chrome lining has a lower coefficient of friction than hardened steel, thus the rifling doesn't "grab" the round nearly as well. This is inherent when you shoot a nice combloc imported Yugoslav barrel in comparison to a combloc chrome lined barrel- the Yugo will beat the living piss out of it (accuracy and consistency) every day of the week when it comes to shooting 7.62x39. Yugo barrels don't have chrome lining and are merely hammer forged steel barrels that are rifled. However, yugo barrels can corrode... fast. And many Yugoslav parts kits are testaments to this- the term "sewer pipe" bore is used often to describe barrels that had been ridden hard and put up wet without cleaning.

non-chrome lined barrels

pros: as mentioned before, they tend to be more accurate. And can be cheaper when discussing US made variants

cons: subject to corrosion if not cleaned properly after use of surplus ammo. Wear out faster than chrome lined barrels (on scale of 10,000 rounds +)


cold hammer forged vs. machined chromoly steel blanks:

hammer forged barrels are all surplus in nature, or imported, since no on state-side makes hammer forged barrel blanks due to the huge capital cost involved with the manufacturing equipment. If someone tells you that their US barrel is hammer forged (for an AK) they are full of shit and you need to disregard whatever else starts spewing out of their mouth.

All US made barrels are machined steel blank. Some of them are made to the proper dimensions (Green Mountain barrels, "Bluejack" custom machined barrels, AK-builder barrels... I forget who he uses, I don't think it's green mountain though) while some are notoriously out of specification.

Any US made AK74 barrels should be automatically suspect to being out of spec. Many manufacturers built to Remington's 5.45x39 specification, which was incorrect. The shoulder height of the chamber was incorrect, as well as the bore diameter. So many CAI AK74s and home builds are running barrels that either key hole or suck. They still shoot. But not as nice as a 5.45x39 round should. This fact drove a vendor that is known on gunco, the files, and the ak forum to produce in spec AKSU barrels custom ordered, which came with the demand resulting from the Tula AKSU kit importation.

The material advantage of a cold hammer forged barrel (CHF) over a machined chromoly barstock blank is material toughness- the CHF barrel has tougher material characteristics, and thusly will stand up to more abuse and a higher round count before wear. Once again, it's only measurable in the 10's of thousands of rounds, so it shouldn't be a concern. When you cold work steel, the toughness of the material increases. Cold hammer forging = cold working.

What would I use for a build? Either a US chromoly barrel or a imported CHF barrel? I'd use both- but I prefer using romanian CHF barrels because 1) they are still available for decent money and 2) I KNOW they are built within contracted specifications of the rifle. So I don't have to question this. I have bought bluejack barrels and now an ak-builder barrel, but I haven't tried either out yet. I have witnessed them and they are accurate as they can be.

But when it comes down to it, the only barrels that were made under a military contract (under some sort of military scrutiny- whether it was great or insignificant) are foreign made AK barrels.


now, this doesn't qualify a barrel's accuracy at all- I have seen "original" parts kit barrels (barrels that are still un-cut on the parts kit, original to the rest of the other parts that used to comprise a AKM) that shoot like shit. Much of this comes from crown damage from field use (or misuse), muzzle brakes that are ****ing stupid, or the fact that the rifle belonged to Murderous George, the Balkan War conscript / Serbian Genocide-ist that liked to do mag dumps into cliff sides or lines of refugees for the thrill of it. The "bullet test" can tell you if it is just your eyes or if you do indeed see excessive bore wear when peering down the muzzle of a surplus parts kit.

I have an AMD-65 that shoots minute of man at 100 yards when it should be minute of man's head due to it's previous use. I've also shot Yugo kits that couldn't hit a barn at 20 yards due to it's Serbian handled life.

 

[Deer Slayer]

why? how many other AKs have you shot? Would you know a romanian from a russian? I'm not talking about the girls, that's obvious- the romanian ones have huge tits.



actually, they make make a decent end product in the realm of Saiga conversions. They used to sell for fractions of that before the stupid TV show. And I doubt their quality has dropped, much. A few members here got some Saiga conversions from them (their specialty) and they are very, very nice. What was better? They were one of the few places that would actually **** around with dealing customers in Massachusetts. There is a lot to be said about that.

So, yeah, it's easy to rip on Red Jacket. But you know what? You can't judge a book by it's cover. I haven't. But I've seen their handy work and it's nice.

Like Jim Fuller- he's an ass clown. He posts videos on youtube telling you that he has absolutely no idea how a AKM works.

Didn't come out right and it wasn't what I meant

 

[flintoid]

I would I have shot quite a few. Bulgarian, romanian, yugo and russian. There are small distinctions between each that you would be able to notice if you shot 10 out of each in a row.

Would you care to elaborate on all of these small distinctions?

 

[KMS]

The VALMET a Finnish born AK variant (M62/S) was the first to be imported into the US,it wasn't a true AK so it wasn't all that popular,they can bank good money for a seller if they can find a buyer but most people are stuck with them at this point,I see people trying to sell them from time to time but just sit there on the classifieds starting at $2100 or so then down to final offers of $1300.

The Egytian MAADI AKM (Pre-ban)is the closest import to resemble a true Russian AKM as the Egyptians were trained by the Russians with Russian tooling,I want an early model bad it's on my want list,there is a few features that BATF didn't think where a great idea and missed the first imports but halted them till the issue was corrected.They stopped importation of these in mid 80s...the post 89s came in with the "Bushinized"stock,thank you King George the First..Later imports the MISR/90 was a bastard child of Century Arms with Chinese Mak90 parts and Egyptian made receivers.

Romanian Variants are the top of my list for collect ability ...no not the WASR models ...sorry..
CUR-1....... 7.62x39
CUR-2........5.45x39
WUM-1.......7.62x39
WUM-2.......5.45x39
SAR-1........7.62x39
SAR-2....... 5.45x39
SAR-3....... .223
Intrac MKII. 5.45x39
WASR.........7.62x39
WASR-2......5.45x39
WASR-3.... .223
Romak 991..7.62x39
Romak 992..5.45x39
Romak 1......7.62x39
Romak 2......5.45x39


And a couple of pump action variants marketed for Kalifonia,the SAR series is my favorite of them all but I would love to buy any of the Romanians unconverted,the rumor was that the SAR-1s were carried by rear guards or their national guard...I forget,but came into the USA as the Romanians in the rear would use them....when I'm not half asleep I will add a bit more description to the variants with calibers.

Chinese rifles are my love,the factories,history and quality had me hooked since my first NHM-91,I own 2 early 80s imports one from BCI/USA and one from Armco,there was ton of importers of Chinese variants but after the hammer dropped in 89 all but a handfull vanished.Stay away from B-west Aks their receivers were not heat treated properly and were "soft".

Norinco and Poly Tecnologies are the two major exporters of variants,there has been "no-name" Chinese imports but I have never seen any.



I'll break down Hungarian SAMs too

I'm not going to get into building or Arsenals or Saigas as I only really care about the shit that came into the country prior 89 and obscure Romanian products.

 

[KMS]

I would I have shot quite a few. Bulgarian, romanian, yugo and russian. There are small distinctions between each that you would be able to notice if you shot 10 out of each in a row.

Huh? I worked 14 hours today is this not making sense to anyone else?

 

[Gibbs]

...other notoriously available AKs that can be bought off the shelf in MA:

Saigas: sporterized civilian export Soviet AKs- very nice firearms with good hammer forged barrels on Russian receivers. Conversions yield nice rifles, and if you are a cheap bastard, this route will yield you what you want for the price that you desire...

Just to save folks a minute of trouble, this was a terrific thread after the MFLR Saiga 5.45 group buy:

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...9-Rifle-Mod-Thread?highlight=saiga+conversion

..and of course, this one on 7.62:

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...version...-95-done?highlight=saiga+conversion

 

[M1911]

The VELMET a Finnish born AK variant (M62/S) was the first to be imported into the US,it wasn't a true AK so it wasn't all that popular,they can bank good money for a seller if they can find a buyer but most people are stuck with them at this point,I see people trying to sell them from time to time but just sit there on the classifieds starting at $2100 or so then down to final offers of $1300.

That's Valmet. Good luck getting an M76 in 7.62x39 for $1300. You might find an M76 tube folder in .223 for $1600 or so, but the mags will set you back ~$175 a piece.

 

[flintoid]

Romanian Variants are the top of my list for collect ability ...no not the WASR models ...sorry..

so you like romanian variants, but turn up your nose at the WASR? This has me curious- why?

all romy rifles (SARs, WUMs/CURs, etc) all had the same issues of the low cap WASR: shitty finish work, lots of cosmoline, canted sights, garbage triggers. The only thing that happens to a WASR that "gets worse" is shitty magazine well hogging by CAI.

Romanians did crazy shit on their AKs, like pressing ak74 brakes onto turned down barrels on AKM FSBs and then welding them up. WUMs and CURs had a lot of this "creative" accessorizing.

I am in no means trying to pick a fight here- I'm just curious. I like Romanian variants and all the quirks with them. They're an interesting breed of imported rifle. I've only seen one WUM before, and I don't think I could identify a CUR2... aren't they fairly similar? (5.45x39, thumbhole stock?)

Huh? I worked 14 hours today is this not making sense to anyone else?

no, you aren't alone . What you are seeing here is the classic "I have XXX rifle, therefor XXX is the best." syndrome. Young padawan is young... like young enough to not own one (on his own) legally. But dad and son went out and bought an Arsenal USA 'verted Russian AKM. They are great rifles. But there's no need for him to make BS tales of range time with 5 variants that you couldn't even identify if they were in front of you on a table in order to justify such a purchase.

 

[Deer Slayer]

Would you care to elaborate on all of these small distinctions?

I typed about 500 words and realized that its pointless. Its what feels good to you. EVERY gun has its flaws small or big. Most of them can be altered to better fit its user. But me shooting those and feeling the differences are what I feel. I mean I am 16 5' 9" and 155. For all I know you could be 6' 6" 250 so most of the things I would say I am not a big fan of may fit your body better. Its what feels the best too you. I like Arsenals because the stock fits me pretty well even though its pretty short and everything else seems to work well for me. If you were tall and had long arms you would probably mention that the stock doesn't work well for you because of its smaller stature. Like I said its a matter of preference and no AK, AR, Galil, m1a, FAL, sig 556 or any semi auto rifle is ever perfect for its individual user. So don't say there aren't differences between AK variants, because there are but for each individual wether they are cosmetic or internal.

 

[Deer Slayer]

no, you aren't alone . What you are seeing here is the classic "I have XXX rifle, therefor XXX is the best." syndrome. Young padawan is young... like young enough to not own one (on his own) legally. But dad and son went out and bought an Arsenal USA 'verted Russian AKM. They are great rifles. But there's no need for him to make BS tales of range time with 5 variants that you couldn't even identify if they were in front of you on a table in order to justify such a purchase.

I just realize that what I said before didn't come out exactly right. and I paid for it. EVERYTHING IS IN IMO

 

[loki32687]

I'd love to see your country of origin breakdown.