AR15's - Who makes the best ones and why?

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So I have been shooting AR's for the better part of 10 years. I have owned several from different manufactures both new and old. I have literally sold hundreds of them working at two separate gunshops over the years. I am not looking to start a thread that will become a pissing match between brand x and brand y. I just want to know who you think makes the best stuff and more importantly why.

Don't just write a name and that's it. I don't want to hear RRA because the one I have groups better than my Colt. I also don't want to hear Bushmaster sucks because you had a lot of FTF with it. And god help you if you pull the "well the military uses it" BS. Don't just say this company is better quality, tell me why the quality is better. I want the hard facts. I want to know what company x does with their product that company y doesn't. I want to hear about the stress test that this company puts their products through and pass that other companies don't because their products would fail.

I see too many articles written in magazines and on the net where you can easily replace brand x with brand y, and pretty much have an identical article. I want this thread to be different. My goal in this thread is for some of our resident AR guru's to truly explain what makes a quality AR15 a quality AR15.

[popcorn]
 
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Is there any single best company? It seems that LWRC, Knights Armament, Noveske, Larue and a few others all make great stuff and picking one as the best would be exceedingly difficult.

Also, what is best depends on the person you talk to. I just build an AR and I wanted an 18" SPR type AR with a rifle length gas system. I couldn't find one as an off the shelf gun with the exception of BCM, who were really just putting parts together that I could buy separately. So you need to consider what you mean by "best". Are you talking performance, features or ultimate quality in terms of materials, metallurgy, etc?
 
Did you read my post? [wink]

Don't just write a name and that's it. I don't want to hear RRA because the one I have groups better than my Colt. I also don't want to hear Bushmaster sucks because you had a lot of FTF with it. And god help you if you pull the "well the military uses it" BS. Don't just say this company is better quality, tell me why the quality is better. I want the hard facts. I want to know what company x does with their product that company y doesn't. I want to hear about the stress test that this company puts their products through and pass that other companies don't because their products would fail.
 
Only products I buy are Larue, Lewis Machine and Tool (LMT) and bushmaster have never had nothing but great gear and service come from them all. Check out a LMT mrp upper have 2 and a number of barrels love them.
 
Here's some specifics.... Tier 1 rifles, like Colt, BCM, LMT, Noveske, Larue, JP, etc, have things like:

-Properly staked bolt carrier gas keys that don't vibrate loose

-MP tested bolts and carriers (higher likelihood of not crumbling into dust sooner rather than later due to metallurgical flaws)

-Better quality control (When's the last time you heard of someone that bought a Colt that was a piece of s**t out of the box? Not that it doesn't happen, but it's pretty rare)

-Barrels that aren't s**t. They almost all use 1/7 or 1/8 instead of the 1/9 fudd twist, and on top of all that, better barrels are more accurate with more bullet weights.

-Approval by pro trainers and guys who kill bad guys for a living (Yes, this isn't technical, but IMO this is worth a lot to me. Given a choice between some random thing and a rifle that a pro is willing to trust his life to, I'd rather use the pro's choice. )

This isn't to imply there aren't a lot of Tier-2 rifles which aren't damned good values, eg, S&W, RRA, etc. It's just that when you go out of the top end, your trust of the rifle should be speculative at best.

There is stuff at the bottom like Olympic/Hesse/etc. that is basically best avoided. A commercially made rifle for $600 = run away, fast. Quality control is nonexistent and corners are cut at every turn on those guns. They are junk masquerading as an AR-15 clone. Olys are like the fung wah bus... there's a reason the tickets are so cheap. Don't be surprised if the bus catches on fire on the way to NYC. [laugh] There is a bunch of other no name junk in this price class too, same deal. You will know it when you see it.

If you need a rifle for that cheap you are far better off building it yourself. You will save money and end up with a better gun.

-Mike
 
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Excellent response and contribution.

It is if you are looking for a M4 fighting rifle. But if your needs are different then you need to know what to look for and know why its important.

If I want a AR for built for the accuracy, I'm not going to find the answers on the chart. Its going to be about high end barrel and hand lapping
A 3gun rifle will have different needs.

So there is no best rifle, only the best for your needs
 
Excellent response and contribution.

Thank you, but the real credit goes to "rob_s" of WWW.TACTICALYELLOWVISOR.NET that made it and continues to update it... SO SAVE IT! lol.

He has the "chart" portion down currently for updating. As you can see from that, it is missing some current manufactures, so I am looking forward to the updated version. Regardless of the chart itself, the document explaining important features, and specifically what companies use these features in their rifles really helps anyone from a n00b to a seasoned vet get some good knowledge on what parts to look for.. if you are looking for a durable, reliable rifle. It is a great guide to go by IMO.
 
It is if you are looking for a M4 fighting rifle. But if your needs are different then you need to know what to look for and know why its important.

If I want a AR for built for the accuracy, I'm not going to find the answers on the chart. Its going to be about high end barrel and hand lapping
A 3gun rifle will have different needs.

So there is no best rifle, only the best for your needs

Exactly.. That chart is based on a rugged fighting rifle that will last and have the "specs" you're looking for in such.
 
Did you read my post? [wink]

I definitely read your post.

See Supermoto's post above for a more concise version of what I was saying. Mike's post also has very good info.

It also seems to me that a lot of the lower end ARs don't have a properly cut chamber. They're cut loose to aid feeding and accuracy suffers. Further, the chart talks about carbon steel barrels. What if you want a stainless barrel? I'm not convinced that chart is the be all and end all.
 
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It is if you are looking for a M4 fighting rifle. But if your needs are different then you need to know what to look for and know why its important.

If I want a AR for built for the accuracy, I'm not going to find the answers on the chart. Its going to be about high end barrel and hand lapping
A 3gun rifle will have different needs.

So there is no best rifle, only the best for your needs

Acknowledged. Didn't say it was a best rifle. Just great response. Clearly lists features of rifles, who has them and who doesn't. Up to the buyer to research and determine which features matter.
 
There is stuff at the bottom like Olympic/Hesse/etc. that is basically best avoided. A commercially made rifle for $600 = run away, fast. Quality control is nonexistent and corners are cut at every turn on those guns. They are junk masquerading as an AR-15 clone. Olys are like the fung wah bus... there's a reason the tickets are so cheap. Don't be surprised if the bus catches on fire on the way to NYC. [laugh] There is a bunch of other no name junk in this price class too, same deal. You will know it when you see it.

If you need a rifle for that cheap you are far better off building it yourself. You will save money and end up with a better gun.

-Mike

I love both of my Olys (an M4 and a 20 inch). They may not be a Noveske or Larue, but they aren't bad. At least mine aren't. I've shot and handled Stags, RRA's, Bushmasters, and of course my Olys. The Olys have a fit and finish just as good and are just as reliable as anything else i've seen these days. They'll eat anything I put through them and they're accurate as all hell. Even the keys are properly staked. My only complaint is the super tight tolerances. Out of 10 mags of various makes, maybe 4 won't drop free on my M4.

But other than that I can't say anything bad about their rifles. Would I buy any other brand if I could? Yeah. But I still wouldn't turn down an Oly if I came across one and had the cash. I've had nothing but good experiences with them and their customer service.
 
I built what is largely a Spikes Tactical rifle (I used a Sabre defense barrel, when mid-lengths were still gaining traction) and am planning on using them pretty much exclusively for any future builds. Currently the only one planned is for my fiance.

All the parts received are high quality. The carrier had a properly staked key, I had no problem with the pins in the lower, everything went together perfectly.

They have built a great record in reliability and service and my experience perfectly matches up with that record.

Just as importantly, they have incredible customer service. Their shipping is fast, their reps are nice and professional, and they respond to all questions emailed promptly. I can say nothing but good things about them, and because of that, my experience, and many others experience I look forward to doing business again with them in the future.

Mike
 
It just occurred to me. I make the best AR!

my_ar.jpg


Why is it the best? Because just look at it![smile]

Actually, I do think there's a lot to be said for the best being custom and that ability is what's excellent about ARs.
 
Good info here

I saved this post as it had some good info. Anyone here do something similar to the $958 BCM build recommended below? Sounds like a nice rifle for the price.

Original post by Architect on the Scrapyard forum. I'm just sharing some of his incredible AR knowledge here...

http://www.scrapyardknives.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=465588&an=0&page=0#Post465588

This post started out as a thread about my newest AR15, but I decided to add some GENERAL INFORMATION from a post I recently made on another forum. This information has been altered to fit my revised scope here....

In order to "qualify myself" to make this post I thought you might like to know my "AR15 Credentials".....

1) I built my first AR15 in 1984.
2) I have built MANY AR15's during the past 27 years.
3) I have continuously owned and operated AR15's for the past 27 years.
4) I am an active shooter, and routinely shoot 1k rounds a month (or more).
5) I have owned the following brands of AR15's:

ArmaLite
Bravo Company (BCM)
Bushmaster
Colt
Colt Defense
DPMS
Essential Arms
Eagle Arms (Coal Valley - before they bought the ArmaLite trade name)
Eagle Arms Division of ArmaLite
LMT
Olympic Arms
Rock River Arms
SGW
Smith & Wesson


Please note: I've owned WELL OVER ten rifles from some of the above companies.


At this point you might be wondering which brand of AR15 I'm going to recommend? First, it is important to understand that NO AR15 "manufacturer" actually fabricates all of their own components. It is more accurate to refer to AR15 brand names as "assemblers" because they all buy various components and assemble them into a single unit. AR15 assemblers only have a couple of methods for competing for your money:

1) "Fit & Finish" - companies like Rock River Arms brag about their uniform upper and lower receiver finishes (ie - they match well) and about how tight the upper and lower lock together. This appeals to the uninformed who believe that tight fitting upper / lower groups are required for precise accuracy. This is not true. In fact, the military will not replace a rifle until a .020" gauge can pass through BOTH SIDES of the gap between the upper / lower.

2) "Price" - companies buy lower grade parts or cut Quality Control measures to compete. An example would be not staking the castle nut. Its a very simple process, but it takes time and therefore money to do so.

3) "Quality" - a few companies follow the known components of the TDP (Technical Data Package), and assemble as close to "milspec" as possible. NOTE: No AR15 is truly milspec because they lack the giggle switch and 14.5" barrel with removable muzzle brake.

Taking the three methods of competing, and my extensive experience with the AR15 platform into account I recommend the following:

* Bravo Company (BCM)
* Colt Defense
* NOTE: There is a lot of praise for Daniel Defense, but since I have no personal experience I cannot recommend them.



BRANDING CLARIFICATION / CAVEAT

The reasons why I recommend the BCM and Colt "brands" are: they currently use the right components (see below), and have the quality control required to properly assemble a fighting carbine. When I say "right components" I am referring to those features desired for a typical 16" barreled fighting carbine (as defined by Pat Rogers and other knowledgeable people). AR15's are machines, and like any other machine they are subject to eventual failure. Selecting the right features will decrease the probability of failure. You do not have to purchase a BCM or Colt to have a fighting carbine - there are other avenues to achieve this. However, this post is geared toward those people that wish to buy assembled components from reputable companies instead of doing it "from scratch".



If you don't understand the difference between a "Tier One Fighting Carbine" and a "Hobby Grade Carbine" you should research the following topics:

"Tier One" vs "Hobby Grade"

* Milspec 7075 Forged .148" Receiver Extension vs Commercial 6061 Extruded .168/.170" Receiver Extension
* Staked vs Non Staked Castle Nuts
* Forged 7075-T6 Lower Receiver vs Cast or Polymer Lower Receivers
* 1/7 Twist Rate vs 1/9 Twist Rate
* 5.56x45mm Chamber vs 223 Remington Chamber
* Chrome Lined Bore & Chamber vs Non Chromed Lined Bore and Chamber
* Certified Mil-B-11595E Barrel Steel vs 4140 or Non-Certified 4150 Barrel Steel
* M4 Feed Ramps vs M16 Feed Ramps
* F-Marked Front Sight Base vs Non F-Marked Front Sight Base
* Tapered FSB Pins vs Straight FSB Pins
* Parkerzing Under FSB vs Bare Steel Under FSB
* Every Barrel Being High-Pressure / Magnetic Particle Inspected vs "Batch" Testing
* Every Bolt Being HP / MPI vs "Batch" Testing
* Shot Peened Bolt vs Not Shot Peened Bolts
* M16 Bolt Carrier vs AR15 Bolt Carrier
* 158 Carpenter Steel Bolt Carriers vs Other Bolt Carrier Materials
* Chrome Lined Bolt Carrier vs Non Chrome Lined Bolt Carrier
* Chrome Lined Gas Key vs Non Chrome Lined Gas Key
* Properly Staked Gas Key vs Improperly Staked Gas Key
* Grade 8 GK Screws vs Anything Else
* Black Bolt Extractor Inserts vs Blue Bolt Extractor Inserts
* Tool Steel Extractors vs MIM Extractors
* H Buffers vs Carbine Buffers

If you want the most durable performance from your rifle you need to have as many of the features on the "left side" of the above list as possible. The link below contains a chart with comparisons of the various assembler's practices:


AR15 COMPARISON CHART LINK - CLICK ME!


ARCHITECT'S STANDARD AR15 BUYING GUIDE RECOMMENDATIONS

1) If you want a RANGE TOY that will see little hard use - then you'll be fine with an ArmaLite, Bushmaster, RRA or Smith & Wesson.

2) If you want a FIGHTING RIFLE then you need to buy a BCM, Colt / Colt Defense, or maybe Daniel Defense. You can include OLDER LMT's in this group too.

3) Eventually you might want your "range toy" to be a "fighting rifle" so just buy a BCM, Colt, or DD to start with. You'll NEVER regret buying a quality rifle - you might regret saving $200 by purchasing a lower quality rifle.


Since the cost of building a "tier one" AR15 is less than $1000 I cannot think of a single VALID reason to buy anything else. For example, the cost of "building" a BCM MidLength or BCM "M4" is only $958. NOTE: When I say "build" I do not mean you have to actually "build" anything - you just have to push the two take-down pins!

BCM NON-HAMMER FORGED BARREL "BUILD" COST

* BCM Factory Assembled "Blem" Lower without Stock Body = $265 Delivered
* VLTOR Clubfoot Stock @ BCM = $49
* BCM MidLength or M4 Upper without Handguards = $385
* BCM BCG and CH = $135
* MagPul MOE Handguards @ BCM = $33
* Shipping for everything at BCM excluding the lower (shipping is in that price) = $15
* LMT Fixed Rear Sight @ AR15.com = $75 or LaRue LT-103 BUIS for $89

Total BCM with LMT Rear BUIS = $958



So do I practice what I preach?
Recently I decided to add a "General Purpose 5.56x45mm Carbine" to my SHTF long gun battery. I already had a Sig Sauer Sig556, Colt 6920 with an EOTech 553 / Daniel Defense Omega FF Quad Rail / etc, Colt 6520 "Kiss AR15" (NOT PICTURED), and an Arsenal SLR-106FR.





However, I wanted a 5.56x45mm carbine that was equally well adapted to CQB distances as it was to around 375 yards. Over the years I've used a wide variety of top quality optics on my AR15's (Leupold 3-9x40, Leupold 4-12x40, Trijicon ACOG TA44, Trijicon AcOG TA01NSN, Trijicon Reflex, EOTech 511, EOTech 517, EOTech 553, EOTech 557, Aimpoint ML2, C-MORE, etc). I've also used "flip to side" magnifiers that sit behind the RDS (Aimpoint and/or EOTech). My personal experience has yielded that RDS (red dot sights) are great out to about 150 yards and ACOG's (3x or 4x) are good from about 100-400 yards. Flip to side magnifiers didn't work well for me at all!

What optic did I select?

Trijicon's Accupoint line features 1-4x or 1.25-4x with tritium powered reticules (no batteries to go dead) that are also feed ambient light through a fiber-optic system. This means the reticule grows brighter when the light around you is brighter and is powered by tritium in even total darkness. You might be wondering what the big deal is? Well if you've used an ACOG without the BAC feature you've probably have experienced "reticule washout" where the reticule just appears black.

What optic mount did I select?

For my money there is only one brand to consider: LaRue Tactical. Due to the long eye relief requirement of the Accupoint I selected LaRue's LT-139 SPR mount. This mount is hold in place with throw-levers that allow the optic to be quickly detached. When re-mounted it is GUARANTEED to maintain zero!

What carbine did I select?

I prefer a "MidLength" gas system (9" handguard as opposed to the standard 7" handguard on a "carbine") for a couple of reasons:

1) They balance better for me.
2) LONGER SIGHT RADIUS!
3) Reduced gas pressures and therefore reduced wear.

I selected BCM's "hammer forged barrel" option, because they are reputably superior to non-hammer-forged barrels.

What BUIS did I select?

There was only one viable option for a "flip up" rear sight - TROY! I've used around 15 different flip-up rear sights over the years, and the Troy Battle Sight is by far the best on the market.

What Accessories did I select?

I strongly considered a free-floating quad rail for this gun, but at this time have decided against it. In the future I might change my mind.

For the buttstock I selected a VLTOR Modstock, because they have a comfortable "sloping cheek weld" which also has waterproof battery storage built in.

For the pistol grip I selected a MagPul "MOE", because it is very comfortable and has various removable "cores" that snap into the bottom. I've ordered a core that will hold a spare bolt and firing pin.

For the light I selected a Sure-Fire G2 in a VTAC mount. This is a simple set up that has always worked well for me.


The cold and rainy Friday before last I took the new "General Purpose 5.56x45mm Carbine" out for an initial break in. In about two or two-and-a-half hours I fired 476 rounds of Wolf 55gr Classic ammo. When the weather improves a little (I shoot in rain, snow, sleet, etc...but 8F just plain sucks ) I'll run another 600rds through it before it gets accepted as "tested / reliable and ready for SHTF duty".



This thread became a little (well - A LOT ) long winded, but I wanted to share some knowledge gained from personal experience and I wanted to show off my new carbine .
 
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I would like to see the chart include gas port size as it has a huge effect on reliability and shootibility of the rifle

Wont happen, the M4C fellator's don't care about gas port size, just the name and the person backing it.

Besides, I am Tier 1.
 
It might be more useful to have a thread on who to avoid and why...

The good ones and their parts are all pretty much interchangeable for most purposes, though as some have pointed out, your needs for accuracy will differ with use.
 
Not a good idea... everyone would get butthurt and we would have endless stories on how their rifle hasn't jammed in the last 5 years they put 500 rounds through it
Point taken, perhaps I should have said "less bad idea." [laugh]

I was thinking more like poor tolerances, upper rattles around in the lower, X doesn't fit with Y, bad headspace, non-standard parts required, commercial buffer tube, poorly staked gas block, etc...

But, it is true that there are many rifles out there deemed "reliable" that haven't seen any real use.
 
Really is no right answer for this. BCM and Spikes Tactical are producing the best bang for your buck as of right now. Both companies will make your AR ban compliant before shipping it here and Spikes offers a lifetime warranty. Their rifles will be mil-spec quality at half the price of others.
 
I would like to see the chart include gas port size as it has a huge effect on reliability and shootibility of the rifle

I had wondered about this too. The only time I've ever seen gas port size mentioned by most vendors was for SBR uppers, especially the really short ones.

Is there a disadvantage to having "too much gas" ? I'd guess too much is better than too little.... and even in "too much", you could have some kind of a gas block regulator.... IIRC there are a few of these on the market, now... some seem oriented towards can users (like the noveske switchblock) and I think JP or some other hi brow company makes one, too.

-Mike
 
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