1. If you enjoy the forum please consider supporting it by signing up for a NES Membership  The benefits pay for the membership many times over.

  2. Dismiss Notice

124 grain 9mm plus p and plus p plus ammo safe?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by nordic alien, Jun 7, 2019.

  1. nordic alien

    nordic alien

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2013
    Messages:
    433
    Likes Received:
    259
    have a glock 26, browning hi power made about 1975 and a smith and wesson model 39. i know the glock 26 can handle high pressure rounds but what about the browning and smith and wesson 39
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2019

  2. Squib308

    Squib308 NES Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2014
    Messages:
    7,241
    Likes Received:
    3,160
    Location:
    Pangea
    if I met someone at my range shooting crazy ass underwood +P's through their model 39 I would (for their own good) throw my coffee at them, sparing the model 39 of course. standard pressure 9mm generates 35k PSI compared to 21k PSI of a 45acp cartridge. pressure (force / area) is plenty high with 9mm. it's a steamy round!

    the way to get more performance out of a 9mm is to optimize behavior of the projectile, not push it an extra 50 ft/s at the cost of a considerably higher pressure. hell even my beloved 357 sig (125 gr at 1400 ft/s) has struggled to show any terminal ballistics advantages over the 9mm. the reason here is that again it's about what the projectile does when it hits, not getting it to hit a little harder. if your honda red lines at 7k rpm do you drive around at 8k rpm? In all likelihood nothing would happen putting a few overpressured rounds through a model 39 or browning hi power, although they will certainly accelerate wear and absolutely increase the risk of damage or possibly case rupture. if for some reason you need more steam than a 9mm just go up in chambering to a 357 sig, 357 mag or possibly 10mm. hell even 9mm dillon is a cool option. this way one doesn't need to have a gunsmith and ambulance on standby at the range.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2019
    CatSnoutSoup, jpm, MarkT and 10 others like this.
  3. amm5061

    amm5061 NES Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2016
    Messages:
    6,261
    Likes Received:
    3,870
    Location:
    Holliston, MA
    I wouldn't, personally.
     
    Garys and xjma99 like this.
  4. nordic alien

    nordic alien

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2013
    Messages:
    433
    Likes Received:
    259
    thanx for the info; i have two 10 mm guns but and love the round
     
    Squib308 likes this.
  5. whacko

    whacko

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2012
    Messages:
    9,164
    Likes Received:
    4,583
    All good info and truth.

    Additionally there is the matter of accuracy. I've rarely had a handgun or rifle show greater accuracy with higher velocity rounds. When I push my 357 hand loads to max load I definitely get less accuracy.....but I still enjoy the fire balls and hard hits on steel.....so I load plenty of those for the ammo shelf. In a 22lr.......mini mags, stingers, and high velocity ammo all give me wider groups than standard velocity. That's why bullseye shooters stick to standard velocity ammo in 22lr and center fire bullseye shooters reload pretty much mouse fart loads.

    Just some stuff for thought. More faster does not always mean more better lol
     
  6. straightshooterjake

    straightshooterjake

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2016
    Messages:
    226
    Likes Received:
    206
    There are a number of things to consider about the use of higher pressure ammunition. First and foremost is the owners manual. The manual is the final word about what ammunition is supported. There are many manuals which officially support +P, but disallow +P+. I am not sure what the Glock manual says, but I am pretty sure the manuals for your other guns don't discuss this issue. According to the complete NRA safety rules, it is a safety violation to use ammunition which is not approved in the owners manual.

    Another thing to potentially consider is "common standards and practices." There are some service firearms which are commonly used with higher pressure 9mm ammo, even though their manuals do not specifically mention it. In these cases, it is generally understood that the guns will take additional wear, and may need more frequent maintenance, but they will not have catastrophic failures. If you have researched a gun, and feel it falls in this category, then higher pressure ammo may be acceptable, with an understanding of the expected additional wear.

    You should also think carefully about the additional wear caused by higher pressure ammo. Even for a gun which is strong enough that you will not have any big problems, there will still be accelerated wear. Essentially, with high pressure ammo, you are making a choice to run the gun extra hard.

    With all of this said, I would not consider running higher pressure ammo in your Hi Power or model 39. These are both desirable guns that will not be cheap to service or replace if they suffer unnecessary wear. Also, without knowing exactly how you use these guns, but I am doubting you will get any real advantage from running hotter ammo in them.
     
    jpm, Glockster30 and nordic alien like this.
  7. drgrant

    drgrant Moderator NES Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2006
    Messages:
    65,965
    Likes Received:
    21,878
    I wouldn't bother with it in the old stuff, frankly. Probably won't hurt it, but not worth messing with. Are you really carrying those things for SD anyways?

    ETA: Although, my Underwood +P+ causes jams in my G26, but no other gun, so there's that, too. (it would end up slightly out of battery on chambering the next round, I think the slide was cycling too fast and potentially frame flex) Of course you could probably try this with 10 G26's and most will be fine... IMHO really hot ammo can cause function issues in some guns, so there's that to watch out for too.

    I've used that same ammo in a bunch of other Glocks, a few Sigs, and my CZ Phantom II without issue, though.

    -Mike
     
    Squib308 likes this.
  8. buckfarack

    buckfarack NES Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2015
    Messages:
    1,460
    Likes Received:
    1,375
    Location:
    SE MA
    [laugh2][rofl][laugh2][rofl]
     
  9. EddieCoyle

    EddieCoyle Consigliere Moderator NES Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    20,675
    Likes Received:
    5,965
    Location:
    Northern, MA
    Nope.

    High Powers will shoot loose with a steady diet of practice ammo, never mind +P or +P+.

    Did you know that there’s no SAAMI spec for +P+ ammo? All it means is “higher pressure than +P”, or “hotter than what the industry agrees is safe”.

    I wouldn’t shoot +P+ ammo in any of my guns, unless of course I made it myself.
     
    Garys, bfm, amm5061 and 1 other person like this.
  10. EddieCoyle

    EddieCoyle Consigliere Moderator NES Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    20,675
    Likes Received:
    5,965
    Location:
    Northern, MA
    My experience with rifles is much different. Most of the rifles I own are most accurate when loaded within a few percent of max.
     
    xjma99, 308rifleman and nordic alien like this.
  11. Glockster30

    Glockster30 NES Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2013
    Messages:
    8,189
    Likes Received:
    3,234
    Location:
    Milky Way
    Excellent advice.

    Again, excellent advice.


    Yes, I can see where it may be gun specific. In the case of the G26, it most likely needed a stronger recoil spring to make it cycle without issue, but who wants to experiment with a gun used for defensive purposes.

    Yes, I knew that +P+ did not have SAAMI specs when I looked up pressures for the +P+ a while ago. Some manufacturers list it as high as 42,000 psi, which is higher than NATO 9mm. I think that the SAAMI proof barrel is rated at 45,000 psi, but that obviously doesn't mean this pressure can be used in a gun.
     
    Squib308 likes this.
  12. drgrant

    drgrant Moderator NES Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2006
    Messages:
    65,965
    Likes Received:
    21,878
    It's worth noting though, that by and large most +P+ ammo commercially available isn't really leaps and bounds above +P, it's not like
    we're talking 9mm Major or something like that. Stuff like Fed 9PBLE, Win Ranger RA9TA, Underwood, is fine to shoot in any decent modern handgun.

    The stuff people should watch out for is Hirtenberger (I think it was called L7A1 or something?) or some of that old 9mm UZI Subgun ammo that was floating around. (some of this may have even been churned out by IMI). Some of THAT stuff is full retard compared to even Underwood's load. That stuff is potentially dangerous in any handgun. Then again at this point if you find stuff like that in the wild some ammo collector weirdos would probably want it, it's probably worth more money sitting in a box forever, that's how rare that kind of thing is.

    -Mike
     
    M60 likes this.
  13. whacko

    whacko

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2012
    Messages:
    9,164
    Likes Received:
    4,583
    Word.

    I should have been more specific.....22 rimfire rifles shoot worse groups with higher velocity ammo.

    Real rifles......I have read that within 10% of max is the sweet spot but I don't reload rifle cartridges.....yet.
     
    M60 likes this.
  14. 308rifleman

    308rifleman

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2015
    Messages:
    738
    Likes Received:
    491
    Location:
    Down the rabbit hole, somewhere in Paradise.
    Eddie, do you have any experience with that Swedish NORMA rifle ammo? I was told that it will bend operating rods and accelerate wear on other parts of semiauto rifles and should be used in bolt, pump and single shot firearms only. Also heard that Israeli IMI ammo in all calibers is much hotter than US factory ammo and that the British-made Radway Green ammo is underpowered. Any truth to this?
     
  15. xjma99

    xjma99 NES Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2011
    Messages:
    5,078
    Likes Received:
    3,086
    Location:
    WMU K, NH
    My brother stopped by last weekend and he wanted to shoot a little before he left, so he pulled out his Henry 22 lever out of his truck. My backyard backstop is about 70-75 yards away with some 22 lr rated steel that I keep out there. First box we picked up were sub sonic. We weren’t hitting that well. All around our targets but few hits. Switched over to mini-mags and barely a miss between the two of us.
     
  16. M60

    M60 NES Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2010
    Messages:
    4,885
    Likes Received:
    3,253
    Location:
    campdown racetrack

    I have some of that crazy sub gun 9mm ammo. You wouldn't believe what one round does to a watermelon. I'll stick with +p+ Ranger T though.
     
    drgrant likes this.
  17. M60

    M60 NES Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2010
    Messages:
    4,885
    Likes Received:
    3,253
    Location:
    campdown racetrack
    What he said. Mini mags are always more accurate for me than stingers. I like stingers for water snakes though.
     
  18. EddieCoyle

    EddieCoyle Consigliere Moderator NES Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    20,675
    Likes Received:
    5,965
    Location:
    Northern, MA
    I don't know. I make my own ammo so I'm really not the person to ask.
     
  19. whatluck

    whatluck

    Joined:
    May 31, 2009
    Messages:
    7,913
    Likes Received:
    2,849
    Location:
    Braintree, MA
    A bhp doesnt have a ton of chamber support. The would expect signsof overpressure at +p+ if you want more energy than hot 9mm you might want to look at 357mag
     
  20. bfm

    bfm NES Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2007
    Messages:
    6,336
    Likes Received:
    2,659
    Location:
    Somerville
  21. Uzi2

    Uzi2 NES Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2017
    Messages:
    4,263
    Likes Received:
    4,586
    Yup, L7A1 Hirtenberger. I bought a bunch of it back when it was available @ $116/1200rd can. Wish I bought more of it. Uzis eat that stuff up.
     
    M60 and drgrant like this.
  22. 308rifleman

    308rifleman

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2015
    Messages:
    738
    Likes Received:
    491
    Location:
    Down the rabbit hole, somewhere in Paradise.
    OK. Just asking. Safety reasons only, although I do operate mostly bolt and pump action rifles and shotguns.
     
  23. EddieCoyle

    EddieCoyle Consigliere Moderator NES Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    20,675
    Likes Received:
    5,965
    Location:
    Northern, MA
    If they were referring to M1 Garands in particular, lots of factory ammo will bend the operating rod. They're intended to run on M2 Ball or equivalent. If you get too far outside that envelop, problems ensue.
     
  24. Asaltweapon

    Asaltweapon NES Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2008
    Messages:
    11,478
    Likes Received:
    4,259
    Location:
    Northern Mass
    When I first got into shooting I was doing a lot of reloading with 38 357 and 44 mag. Was really making some very hot loads and created IMO a very unreliable Model 66. These loads were all by the book but the steady diet of them I believe caused problems.

    No way would I do this with a plastic framed gun today.
     
  25. djbradles

    djbradles NES Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2014
    Messages:
    1,097
    Likes Received:
    786
    Location:
    Either here or there
    Would you guys be confident using this Federal in a ‘91 Beretta 92fs, Glock 17 G4, and Ruger PCC?

    7133E9B8-583E-4395-ABEC-E1D316076D56.jpeg
     
  26. drgrant

    drgrant Moderator NES Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2006
    Messages:
    65,965
    Likes Received:
    21,878
    Maybe, but the behavior was hardly consistent, Like it wouldn't reliably fail every time. Like you could shoot 3 rounds and then the 4th one the gun is slightly out of battery, like to the point where you can't even see it out of battery. Really weird. I didn't invest (or care to invest) too much time in fully troubleshooting it because there are plenty of other competent loads that work fine in the gun.

    Yes, pble is good shit, despite its age, but frankly in the PCC it's probably overkill and the gel results probably not so hot, probably going too fast and weird shit will happen... but in modern handguns? let er rip.

    -Mike
     
    djbradles likes this.
  27. djbradles

    djbradles NES Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2014
    Messages:
    1,097
    Likes Received:
    786
    Location:
    Either here or there
    I think I’ll try it on a watermelon with the PCC just for giggles and post up on this thread.
     
    mrmike7189 and jpm like this.
  28. drgrant

    drgrant Moderator NES Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2006
    Messages:
    65,965
    Likes Received:
    21,878
    Shoot it into water jugs, im curious if it stays together or not.... that load is going to be screaming out of a pcc barrel....
     
    mrmike7189 likes this.
  29. Al-Jim19

    Al-Jim19

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2013
    Messages:
    2,314
    Likes Received:
    727
    I don’t think a baby is going to be very comfortable in a beretta or Glock magazines. Babies are much more reliable in a bassinet or car seat.
     
    djbradles and drgrant like this.
  30. djbradles

    djbradles NES Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2014
    Messages:
    1,097
    Likes Received:
    786
    Location:
    Either here or there
    It’s a super hot load though
     

Share This Page